I am not sure what the costs are myself, but recently a family of 4 I knew drove across London - Paris because it was significantly cheaper. Granted it was relatively late booking, but Eurostar is expensive now, I could have flown for significantly less - I just don't like the air industry treatment of customers so am happy to pay a premium to avoid it (Eurostar are hardly beacons of customer service)
i think you may be over estimating it!
The original North of London service was scheduled to run via Kensington Olympia and the West London Line.
The OP was saying start and end some there
Which because border controls need staffing is only going to work if there is an hourly service, it wouldn't be cost effective for an occasional service (hence why Marne-le-Vallee was dropped). So that means you have to pick one from Stratford, Ebbsfleet or Ashford as your second terminus, and then you need to get decent loadings on those hourly services. I agree there is a market for those driving or living south or south east of London, but I doubt its a full train per hour.
Ashford would also be my preference. I would stop most London Eurostars there too for its connections, with just a few non-stops at peak times to keep the headline journey time down in publicity.
More practical to run a cross-London domestic service along the WCML to the Midlands from Ashford, using some capacity on the fasts released by HS2. That could serve major stops en route; Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby etc. It's technically possible now, but you've got to weave across from the slows on the flat today so some infrastructure intervention in the London area might be considered to grade separate that.
Eurotunnel are courting new operators I think. I don't think we should be advocating diversion of existing cross-channel rail traffic to airlines of whatever flavour or pricing policy. Airports will also be facing difficulties implementing the new border procedures but at least they usually have the space to expand, or can create it more easily, in terminals.
I agree: Is there any reason why the doors can't be opened sooner as well? There's always an unseemly scrum when the platform is announced, and then the waiting area empties out.
I mean the WCML/Ashford domestic services could travel via HS1 through the NNL / HS1 link to provide a cross London service pretty minimally. However the lack of an obvious central London station may hinder it.
Aka unnecessary, as everyone has allocated seats and 20min is ample time for boarding.
Difficult and controversial to expand this, even just to add an extra track over the road bridge to the west of the station across Kentish Town Rd, let alone provide platforms and suitable passenger facilities. There's no direct tube interchange there either. This area was a problem for the original HS1-HS2 link proposal I recall. Post HS2, I'd look at providing extra platforms at Willesden Junction on the WCML slows for certain, and maybe also on the fasts, with a people mover shuttle over to the Old Oak superhub. I suggest the Midlands-Kent service could stop there if the platforms existed, and that could provide comprehensive connections to Underground, Overground, Elizabeth Line via people-mover, etc.
I dont think the hs1/nll link is actually signalled to passenger standards. The tracks dont appear to have been used for sometime. and i think it has only ever been used for engineering vehicles under possesion.
I'm certain some work would be needed, albeit relatively minor compared to constructing an entirely new link through an urban area! Signalling plans I've seen show the link having passenger-compliant overlaps at the conventionally signalled junctions and all point machines have been supplied with the FPLs or equivalents required for passenger trains for decades now apart from special trailable ones only used in depots and yards. The transition between signalling protection system at the boundary could be a significant issue I agree as this never had to be properly completed before for routine passenger use and the trains would need to be able to support whatever tech standards and procedures were settled on. The SE cl.395s already have TVM, KVB, TPWS and AWS systems onboard I think so all the ingredients are probably there. The viaduct and trackbed between HS1 and the NLL junctions were built for a double track but only ever equipped with a single line so with some layout alterations the link could plausibly accommodate a train in either direction between the networks simultaneously. I don't know if any traction system changes would be required. As you imply running a new Midlands route in addition to the existing SE Javelin services means additional trains. They might be additional 395s, best for fleet flexibility, or a revised derivative rather than exactly the same train.
If you do not mind dragging suitcases through Westmill Shopping Centre whilst changing trains.
Neither Ebbsfleet or Stratford are big enough stations to terminate start a full Eurostar from. They would also need to run ECS to/from St Pancras to reverse.
Well you couldddd use ripple lane sidings in Dagenham for any ebbsfleet reversing. I guess it's physically possible. Signalling wise I don't know
I'm told by a reputable source that the link as is was put in as a tick box exercise on the hs1 contract and that when it was originally planned that a major rebuild of the nll and Camden Road Station would have been required to enable passenger trains to have run through. This I think was the responsibility of br/ rail track but never progressed due to the lack of services. It's some time since I had the conversation but I think the crux of the matter was that the connection to the ECML needed to have an Independant line joining the nnl from the hs1 link to provide sufficient overlaps. I believe as a result there's no signalling interface at all between br and hs1 here. I think the catenary on hs1 is at a different height and tension to br so you need at least different settings. I believe only the nol Eurostar and 92s had this but I'll ask a 395 driver when I see one in my heritage duties!
I agree the absolute minimum track layout was built to form a basic connection suitable for occasional movements such as engineering trains, but it is a fully interlocked interface and the signals on the connection in both directions have AWS and TPWS. Operationally the NLL incline is difficult in terms of length and also when travelling from Camden to the ECML the overlap goes through the junction at the bottom of the incline (a safety measure as there was a perceived risk of overrun with an overlap spur going to a stop block with the outcome of smashing into the Copenhagen tunnel portal) so you can't approach the protecting signal at the same time as a train out of Kings Cross or Thameslink is passing on the Down Slow. Here's a diagram I found from this document: https://railway-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/signalling-at-the-st-pancrasctrl-terminal.pdf
If the passengers wanted to go to London they would get a Eurostar service that went there - you would deliberately market the Ebbsfleet stop at driving and parking.
Is that a problem - there are loads of paths spare aren't there? Obviously it will look a bit crap having empty trains going in and out but if it means more services.
I'd suggest the number who drive to St Pancras is a tiny proportion.
I agree. As a regular who passes through St Pancras & Kings Cross, there is not that many private cars that pull up dropping people off. I would have no idea if people drove into London and parked up where they would find a suitable long stay carpark. If there had been sufficient passenger flows through Ebbsfleet and Ashford previously, I would have thought Eurostar would have revisited the option before now and opened them up. If they were to reopen said locations to have trains call rather than terminate there, the fare would be the same as for direct from London because they would have empty seats between London & Ebbsfleet/Ashford reserved for people joining at Ashford/Ebbsfleet, so loss of revenue would occur if tickets were cheaper from Ashford/Ebbsfleet.(Of course viceversa coming from Europe)
