Eurostar... Why so many trains?

[signed]

London services splitting in Brussels with parts terminating there or even going to Cologne

I can't find the regulations right now but I can remember that the channel tunnel regulations require trains to be at least ~340m in length, so that a half-train could always be near an emergency exit

EDIT: Found the line on the 373 Wikipedia, it's actually 375m minimum :

The length of a complete set is dictated by the Channel Tunnel safety regulations; as the distance between consecutive cross passages is 375 metres (1,230 ft 4 in). This means that, if a Eurostar train has to stop inside the Tunnel in case of fire or other emergencies, it would always stop adjacent to a cross passage.

 

[swt_passenger]

Would 2x200m meet the evacuation requirements for the Tunnel, given the removal of the option to evacuate into the other half-set?

I‘m sure that explicit requirement about through connection was removed some years ago, but I’m struggling to find our discussion about it. Something to do with trains splitting for two destinations.

 

[popeter45]

Would 2x200m meet the evacuation requirements for the Tunnel, given the removal of the option to evacuate into the other half-set?

its allowed if you have a evec plan based around it
DB were going to use 2x200m units for their aborted London service

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Here you go, directly to the post I refer to. (Which is in Dutch obviously)

Much obliged!

 

[Trainbike46]

According to someone on the Dutch forums, the weight of passengers should also be taken into account for the axle-load. Apparently there are double-deckers available complying with this requirement, but only with reserved seating only as they will be too heavy when including the weight of standing passengers.

The Dutch HSL is pretty much built in a swamp, hence it has its limitations in axle-load just like many non high-speed routes have in the Netherlands.
Not likely to have it increased, InfraSpeed which manages the infrastructure is already not happy with the TRAXX locomotives as they cause additional maintenance costs. (Partially also due to the different way forces work on the tracks when using a curve built for 300 km/h with just 160 km/h)

That explains why NS won't order double-deckers for domestic HS services!

Based on the Dutch forum, it sounds like Eurostar could use double-decker stock then, but the question then remains as to whether they will

 

[Fragezeichnen]

Intriguingly, a seperate post linked from the one DanielB linked to, comes from someone who claims to know what "management" wants, and that is TGV M(even though officially no-one has even bid yet).

 

[Halish Railway]

I'm not convinced that a double-deck would present any advantages given that a lot of floor space would have to be dedicated to luggage stacks, in stark contrast to a PBA/PBKA where a suitcase could easily be placed in the overhead racks. Something like the second generation Acelas could work really well though, the only reservation I would have being whether the performance on the German 15KV 16.75 Hz system given how poor the performance of TGV-derived trains supposedly is on such a system.

 

[30907]

I'm not convinced that a double-deck would present any advantages given that a lot of floor space would have to be dedicated to luggage stacks, in stark contrast to a PBA/PBKA where a suitcase could easily be placed in the overhead racks.

SNCF haven't bought anything else for yonks, so they presumably think it works - I know RFF track access fees have something to do with it.
Not saying they are as nice a travel environment!

 

[Snow1964]

Intriguingly, a seperate post linked from the one DanielB linked to, comes from someone who claims to know what "management" wants, and that is TGV M(even though officially no-one has even bid yet).

It would be quite easy to make the tender so only compliant train is TGV-M. Nothing else gets close to upto 740 capacity (or 1480 for double unit).

Eurostar will have premium cabins so won't be near max seat capacity. But could potentially be nearer 1150 seats for a 400m long double unit. A lot more than any single deck unit can manage.

TGV-M uses shorter power cars than earlier generations and 9 slightly shorter intermediate vehicles (instead of 8 on earlier TGV). For busy routes it is logical choice

 

[Halish Railway]

SNCF haven't bought anything else for yonks, so they presumably think it works - I know RFF track access fees have something to do with it.
Not saying they are as nice a travel environment!

From my experience of using Eurostar, Thalys and TGV services during summer time, passengers using the former two tend to bring along much more luggage and larger luggage. I can't speak for the experience of TGV Duplexes that run into Germany, Switzerland and Spain.

 

[30907]

From my experience of using Eurostar, Thalys and TGV services during summer time, passengers using the former two tend to bring along much more luggage and larger luggage. I can't speak for the experience of TGV Duplexes that run into Germany, Switzerland and Spain.

Fair point - high numbers of intercontinental travellers. Trust management have noticed!

 

[Halish Railway]

Fair point - high numbers of intercontinental travellers. Trust management have noticed!

Well surely they must see how long it takes for everyone to get on the train at Gare du Nord as everyone tries to get their suitcase on the train and into either the luggage stacks or overhead racks. I dread to think how long it would take everyone to get onto a Duplex.

 

[ABB125]

the only reservation I would have being whether the performance on the German 15KV 16.75 Hz system given how poor the performance of TGV-derived trains supposedly is on such a system.

Do you know any more about this? Not something I've heard about, would be interesting to find out why there are issues

 

[Halish Railway]

Do you know any more about this? Not something I've heard about, would be interesting to find out why there are issues

Power output stats for the PBKA taken from wikipedia:

8,800 kW (11,801 hp) on 25 kV AC
5,160 kW (6,920 hp) on 15 kV AC
3,680 kW (4,935 hp) on DC (Doesn't specify what voltage)

So quite a difference between 25 kV and 15 kV. I'd imagine that this isn't to much of a problem between Aachen and Dortmund where the sections of over 160 KPH are fairly flat, but possibly unusable on the high-speed line from Cologne to Frankfurt given the number of steep gradients, high line speed and density of traffic.

 

[ABB125]

Power output stats for the PBKA taken from wikipedia:

8,800 kW (11,801 hp) on 25 kV AC
5,160 kW (6,920 hp) on 15 kV AC
3,680 kW (4,935 hp) on DC (Doesn't specify what voltage)

So quite a difference between 25 kV and 15 kV. I'd imagine that this isn't to much of a problem between Aachen and Dortmund where the sections of over 160 KPH are fairly flat, but possibly unusable on the high-speed line from Cologne to Frankfurt given the number of steep gradients, high line speed and density of traffic.

That reduction in power between 25kV and 15kV is proportional to the voltage reduction. This would suggest to me that there is a limit on the current which can go into the transformer (assuming the same transformer is used for both voltages, with appropriate different tap points for the each voltage).

 

[Halish Railway]

That reduction in power between 25kV and 15kV is proportional to the voltage reduction. This would suggest to me that there is a limit on the current which can go into the transformer (assuming the same transformer is used for both voltages, with appropriate different tap points for the each voltage).

In Germany, TGV derived trains use the pantograph that is normally used to collect DC electricity in France, Belgium and the Netherlands (just the rear one raised rather than both, so there may be some other difference with how the power is rectified. By comparison, Siemens Velaros use the same pantograph for 15 kV and 25 kV.

 

[Snow1964]

Do you know any more about this? Not something I've heard about, would be interesting to find out why there are issues

The TGV-POS (double deck from 16 years ago) are 9.6MW on 25kv, but only 6.8MW on German system). Obviously with power capped 30% lower, will accelerate slower.

 

[MotCO]

It's time for Alstom vs Siemens Round 2. What will win out - a common fleet, or French national pride?

If Alstom win, will any be built in Derby? 50 trains x 18 carriages is a lot of work!

 

[popeter45]

If Alstom win, will any be built in Derby? 50 trains x 18 carriages is a lot of work!

no
Derby isnt setup for TGV production and would need road haulage to get the sets to a HS1 from the factory in any case

 

[whoosh]

I have always thought as well that the Eurostar fleet is extremely excessive. Even the traditional Eurostar fleet for the London service seems very excessive. I have never understood why they need 28 units for the London service. It is far too many.

London to Paris is 2 hours and 15 minutes roughly. So for an hourly service (which is the current frequency) you only need six trains. This gives a 45 minutes turnaround which is more than enough.

London to Brussels is 2 hours and 5 minues roughly. So for a two hourly service (which is the current frequency) you only need three trains. This gives a 55 minutes turnaround which is more than enough.

Now that we have Amsterdam that probably adds a requirement of another two trains. It is only an infrequent service.

So that is around eleven or twelve trains that are required for the traditional Eurostar services. This is with generous turnarounds. You could probably make do with ten trains if you had tight turnarounds.

Even if they wanted to increase the frequency and make Brussels hourly like Paris then they would only need three extra trains. So fifteen or sixteen units would be more than enough to cover services. So i can not see how they are using so many units.

But yet Eurostar currently have 28 units (11x 373 plus 17x 374) for London services which seems hugely excessive. I have always been baffled by the need for so many. Of course you want a few spares but i would have thought the 374 fleet of 17 units would be more than enough (that allows plenty of spare units) so i am not sure why they kept their 373 fleet of 11 units.

You are missing a crucial piece of information. Eurostar trains need to be 'prepped' before each journey through the Channel Tunnel. It was about 35 minutes on class 373 for the driver to prep the cabs both ends (remember that the train may have to be driven out from the rear cab). All those internal fire doors would need to be checked that they close properly as well I expect.
Most trains are prepped on depot at night, but Eurostars are done before each trip through the tunnel.

Another piece of information which isn't crucial, but a decision which leads to better reliability - aided by there being platform capacity at the terminals:
It is common for the crew who work out, to work the same train back. Have a look at Thameslink's Peterborough to Horsham service for what could happen if they were a crew member short and didn't plan like this. Cancellations all over the place, with displaced rolling stock!

So then you need to add on the walking time from platform to crew room, and the Personal Needs Break time, and the walking time back.
This is before any contingency is added for delay recovery.

 

[Snow1964]

It's time for Alstom vs Siemens Round 2. What will win out - a common fleet, or French national pride?

I guess in theory (especially if speed of delivery is key, as per Eurostar announcement) then can't rule out few more E320s and balance of TGV-M.

Unless they only go for more E320s, going to have 2 types, so exact numbers of each type, for a future growing service might not matter to much, because exact service levels in next decade aren't precisely known, so numbers required of each type are only an estimate.

 

[peteb]

Pity they don't run a few more double sets: the 456pm Brussels to London tonight was rammed, no spare seats I could spot. I guess the UK bank holiday weekend may be the reason. At least everyone gets a seat unlike DB ICE.......

 

[zwk500]

Pity they don't run a few more double sets: the 456pm Brussels to London tonight was rammed, no spare seats I could spot. I guess the UK bank holiday weekend may be the reason. At least everyone gets a seat unlike DB ICE.......

Do you mean double sets or double decker?

 

[peteb]

Given tonight's issues around Rotterdam for 240 passengers wouldn't it be sensible to have "Thunderbird" units located at say Brussels, Paris and in the UK so that rescue trains can be sent to carry stranded passengers forward?

Do you mean double sets or double decker?

I mean two trains linked together. Not sure why double deck trains aren't running through the tunnel, maybe some sort of health and safety case issue?

 

[Snow1964]

Not sure why double deck trains aren't running through the tunnel, maybe some sort of health and safety case issue?

At the time the E320s were ordered (about 14 years ago), the original tunnel safety rules were still in force. These had almost been conceived from blank sheet of paper before tunnel opened.

The revised rules took in experience of some incidents (and some in long Alpine tunnels). With rules of various long tunnels effectively harmonised, train manufacturers have been able to design to a common go anywhere standard train. (Strictly the rules do vary, but if take hardest part of each, then can meet them all).

 

[martin2345uk]

I mean two trains linked together. Not sure why double deck trains aren't running through the tunnel, maybe some sort of health and safety case issue?

They wouldn't fit in any platforms?

 

[zwk500]

I mean two trains linked together.

Eurostar trains are already c.400m long. They are already double length trains.

Given tonight's issues around Rotterdam for 240 passengers wouldn't it be sensible to have "Thunderbird" units located at say Brussels, Paris and in the UK so that rescue trains can be sent to carry stranded passengers forward?

The trains require crew to operate them, of course.

 

[Trainbike46]

Given tonight's issues around Rotterdam for 240 passengers wouldn't it be sensible to have "Thunderbird" units located at say Brussels, Paris and in the UK so that rescue trains can be sent to carry stranded passengers forward?


I mean two trains linked together. Not sure why double deck trains aren't running through the tunnel, maybe some sort of health and safety case issue?

Given one of the options explicitly considered is the TGV M, which is a double-deck platform, there are no reasons that make it impossible to run them through the tunnel or to london at present.

The reason the original trains weren't double-deck is that, until HS1 opened in 2007, eurostar trains had to fit in the UK loading gauge, so the e300s /373s couldn't be double-deck as it wouldn't fit on the British side of the Channel.

The e320s/374s were already a massive capacity increase (to 900 seats, compared to the 373s 750 seats), so it was likely considered enough.

There's also the consideration of getting people through security - a more frequent service is easier on security. Two departures (half) an hour apart with 750/900 seats each is easier than a single departure with 1500 seats.

As others have pointed out, eurostar trains are already 400m long, so a double-length is impossible as nowhere has 800m / half a mile long platforms. Given that most ICEs and TGVs are 200m it already exceeds capacity of a double train on most other services anyway

 

[Krokodil]

Historically SNCF did maintenance work only during the day whereas BR practice was 24 hours. I believe that was one of the main reasons for the TGV fleet to be much larger than the number of operational diagrams.

Didn't some French engineers visit Longsight and refuse to believe the productivity Alstom was getting?

I think that things have now tightened up in France, didn't they withdraw a chunk of the TGV fleet by doing more work at night?

 

[MattyJames]

I've just read this article on Rail Technology Magazine, which claims Eurostar are going to buy new trains, bringing their fleet up from 51 trains to 67 trains:



By my reckoning, Eurostar runs about 1tph London-Paris. 2 hour 20 mins journey time, and if you allow an hour dwell at each end that would require about 7 trainsets.
Then you have about 1 train per 2 hours to Brussels, 3 hour journey time, so needs about 4 maybe 5 trainsets.
Granted there's a few other daily journeys (the Amsterdam ones) plus some trains will be being serviced, but there's no way that adds up to needing anything even remotely near the 51 trainsets the article claims Eurostar currently run, let alone the 67 they are expanding to.

This has piqued my curiosity. What are the other trains doing? Why does Eurostar have so many?

Thalys has now amalgamated with Eurostar so the new order will be for the Ex-Thalys sets as well, the PBA and PBKA sets.