Eurotunnel Class 9 fleet replacement?

[thomson787]

Hi all,
I can see that some class 09's where recently upgraded, I traveled on eurotunnel and seeing the age of the rolling stock got me thinking about its replacement, Any idea's or opinions on what they will do? clean sheet design, same design or an evolution?

 

[D365]

What makes you think that the Class 9s are needing replacement at this time?

 

[CosherB]

What makes you think that the Class 9s are needing replacement at this time?

Aren't they going to haul 442s?

 

[ac6000cw]

The oldest locos are only around 24 years old (relatively young for electric traction) so other than overhauls/upgrading I'd expect them to carry on for another 10-15 years at least. A 50 year life for an electric loco is not unusual (with proper overhauls and refurbishment along the way).

 

[Ploughman]

What is the usual lead time from Start of new design work to In service?

I should think that at least 5 years possibly more so thinking of a new design now is not that stupid.

 

[daikilo]

What is the usual lead time from Start of new design work to In service?

I should think that at least 5 years possibly more so thinking of a new design now is not that stupid.

Firstly, whilst the current locos were I believe purpose built, that may not make sense today and it may be better to go for a derivative of an existing design.

Secondly, there are various factors which might lead to a need for locos:
- structural degradation (fatigue, corrosion, ...)
- obsolescence or un-availability of components
- increase in train weight (or speed)
- increase in demand (more trains)
- availability of more efficient designs
Any of these could lead to it making sense to build locos, possibly based on a new design, but the particular factor/s will determine the optimum solution and thus timeline.

Note that about half the initial fleet is now upgraded from 5.6 to 7MW in line with the last batch of new-build locos.

 

[ac6000cw]

Firstly, whilst the current locos were I believe purpose built

They were - the 'flexible' Bo-Bo-Bo design was specifically chosen to minimise wheel and rail wear on the sharp curves at the terminals (the Swiss Re6/6, Re620 locos are the same wheel arrangement due to the curves on the original Gotthard pass line), whilst having sufficient tractive effort to deal with the gradients in the tunnel with only one loco operational (important for safety as well as minimising the disruption costs of a loco failure).

I'd expect any new locos to follow the same pattern - the only other sensible arrangements using 'standard' Bo-Bo designs might be a pair of locos at each end (longer overall) or a three loco solution with one in the middle (but that prevents driving vehicles the length of the train during loading/unloading).

 

[TimboM]

The oldest locos are only around 24 years old (relatively young for electric traction) so other than overhauls/upgrading I'd expect them to carry on for another 10-15 years at least. A 50 year life for an electric loco is not unusual (with proper overhauls and refurbishment along the way).

Presumably the Class 9s are worked considerably harder than the "average" mainline electric loco, though? They're operating round-the-clock services constantly hauling (very) heavy trains up steep inclines, plus throw in some tight curves for good wear-and-tear measure.

I expect they have a more intensive maintenance/overhaul regime accordingly, but you'd still think ultimately this amount of use would shorten their life span?

 

[ash39]

I suspect the question came about because the first of the eurostar sets are being scrapped at the moment. It's a valid question, they're either going to need major rebuilds or replacement in the next decade or so.

 

[ac6000cw]

Presumably the Class 9s are worked considerably harder than the "average" mainline electric loco, though? They're operating round-the-clock services constantly hauling (very) heavy trains up steep inclines, plus throw in some tight curves for good wear-and-tear measure.

I expect they have a more intensive maintenance/overhaul regime accordingly, but you'd still think ultimately this amount of use would shorten their life span?

Remember that the journey time (when the locos are actually moving) is only about 35 minutes - a significant proportion of their working time is spent stationary in the terminals while the train is loaded and unloaded. Also by world standards 2500 tonnes is not a heavy train for a pair of 6-axle locos to handle on a line where the maximum gradient is only 1.1% - those Swiss Re620s have been tackling long, curvaceous 2.6% gradients for the last 40 years...(and much worse weather than you get inside a nice modern tunnel!).

 

[ac6000cw]

I suspect the question came about because the first of the Eurostar sets are being scrapped at the moment.

High-speed train sets clock up very high mileages per annum (due to the high average speeds), which is likely to shorten their economic life in comparison to 'ordinary' rolling stock.

 

[TimboM]

Remember that the journey time (when the locos are actually moving) is only about 35 minutes - a significant proportion of their working time is spent stationary in the terminals while the train is loaded and unloaded. Also by world standards 2500 tonnes is not a heavy train for a pair of 6-axle locos to handle on a line where the maximum gradient is only 1.1% - those Swiss Re620s have been tackling long, curvaceous 2.6% gradients for the last 40 years...(and much worse weather than you get inside a nice modern tunnel!).

Fair point

 

[ash39]

High-speed train sets clock up very high mileages per annum (due to the high average speeds), which is likely to shorten their economic life in comparison to 'ordinary' rolling stock.

Good point, and I agree. I was just speculating on why the OP might have asked the question now.

 

[thomson787]

Good point, and I agree. I was just speculating on why the OP might have asked the question now.

Sorry for slow reply to your question work has been manic,

I was wondering as I was just courious about what may happen when the replacement time comes.

 

[ChilternTurbo]

I do wish that Le Shuttle carriages would be refurbished. The toilets are revolting and twice I've managed to scuff my alloy wheels on the serrated edges of the walkway when driving onto the things (and yes I can drive a car properly!)

 

[TimboM]

I do wish that Le Shuttle carriages would be refurbished. The toilets are revolting and twice I've managed to scuff my alloy wheels on the serrated edges of the walkway when driving onto the things (and yes I can drive a car properly!)

Aircon is screwed on several of the coaches these days too, making the crossing hot and stifling (in summer at least).

 

[rebmcr]

Aircon is screwed on several of the coaches these days too, making the crossing hot and stifling (in summer at least).

Surely the aircon is a safety-critical system, in an enclosed tunnel with hundreds of internal combustion engines?

 

[43096]

Firstly, whilst the current locos were I believe purpose built, that may not make sense today and it may be better to go for a derivative of an existing design.



Note that about half the initial fleet is now upgraded from 5.6 to 7MW in line with the last batch of new-build locos.

How many Bo-Bo-Bo, 7MW variants of existing electric loco designs are there available, produced by reputable loco manufacturers?

It's a bespoke design that is required, end of.

 

[TimboM]

Surely the aircon is a safety-critical system, in an enclosed tunnel with hundreds of internal combustion engines?

I'm not sure how the car-carrying coaches work exactly, however I do recall noisy fans and no build up of fumes, so I suspect the extraction fans/systems still work (and have to for H&S reasons as you say) but the "nice to have" aircon that keeps the passenger compartments cool and refreshed is not deemed worthy of repair.

I raised the issue with the attendant at the time and his response was along the lines of "...sorry, the aircon is broken - it's broken in a lot of the coaches these days..."

 

[talldave]

Surely the aircon is a safety-critical system, in an enclosed tunnel with hundreds of internal combustion engines?

It's closer to a hundred internal combustion engines, rather than hundreds, and they're not running in the tunnel anyway.

 

[urpert]

I'm not sure how the car-carrying coaches work exactly, however I do recall noisy fans and no build up of fumes, so I suspect the extraction fans/systems still work (and have to for H&S reasons as you say) but the "nice to have" aircon that keeps the passenger compartments cool and refreshed is not deemed worthy of repair.

I raised the issue with the attendant at the time and his response was along the lines of "...sorry, the aircon is broken - it's broken in a lot of the coaches these days..."

Pretty poor given the premium pricing by comparison with the ferries (not that P&O are a particularly shining example of meticulous maintenance).

 

[ChilternTurbo]

Pretty poor given the premium pricing by comparison with the ferries (not that P&O are a particularly shining example of meticulous maintenance).

For the first time ever, I used the ferry (DFDS) to cross the channel as Le Shuttle prices were very high. Even paying extra for priority boarding and lounge access it was a lot cheaper, not that slow and a rather civilised experience. I also saved on not having to get my wheels refurbished. Again.

 

[urpert]

These days I tend to favour the ferries too. P&O's new ships are very nice (albeit not well maintained - outside decks already rusting the last time I was on one)

 

[rebmcr]

It's closer to a hundred internal combustion engines, rather than hundreds, and they're not running in the tunnel anyway.

You're right, nominal capacity is 120 cars + 12 coaches. The engines do run while loading though, and some idiot can usually be relied upon to flout rules.