Eurovision Liverpool, a rail nightmare waiting to happen.

[Old Yard Dog]

Big though Eurovision is, the capacity of the Arena on the various afternoons and nights will be well short of 10,000. So the number of visitors is unlikely to exceed the numbers for the Grand National or Everton or Liverpool home games.

However some local hoteliers and airbnb owners are changing obscene prices so there may be a demand for late-night transport to nearby towns and cities like Chester or Manchester.

 

[Horseman]

Merseyrail are running later than usual services on the Saturday, running into Sunday morning with the latest ones scheduled to leave Liverpool not far off 2am to cope with the demand.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Anyone with any sense will try to fly direct to Liverpool, either the 500 bus direct to centre or via Liverpool South Parkway which is easy, much easier than using Manchester. Lufthansa have put on bigger aircraft Frankfurt to Liverpool on certain days to correspond .

I was only considering flights to Liverpool, nobody even mentioned Manchester.

Truth be told, "anyone with any sense" will stay at home and watch on television... or not watch at all because Eurovision is a non-event.

 

[frodshamfella]

I was only considering flights to Liverpool, nobody even mentioned Manchester.

Truth be told, "anyone with any sense" will stay at home and watch on television... or not watch at all because Eurovision is a non-event.

It was mentioned in point #50, but it doesn't matter. Stopping at home and watching on TV is fine, but it never replaces actually being at an event.

 

[AGH]

Being a local I can assure you that the volume of the venue has nothing to do with it. Every pub / bar is doing something, every hotel is sold out and you couldn't get anything within 50miles once announced. There will be a lot travelling in and out from that periphery.

I've been in Liverpool for massive events such as the ECL final (when no team was actually in the city) and it was carnage at lime Street. I expect similar.

Maxing out capacity of existing services is essential by running as long as you can. The last trains on a Saturday are already rammed so to do nothing will be unacceptable.

 

[gazzaa2]

Being a local I can assure you that the volume of the venue has nothing to do with it. Every pub / bar is doing something, every hotel is sold out and you couldn't get anything within 50miles once announced. There will be a lot travelling in and out from that periphery.

I've been in Liverpool for massive events such as the ECL final (when no team was actually in the city) and it was carnage at lime Street. I expect similar.

Maxing out capacity of existing services is essential by running as long as you can. The last trains on a Saturday are already rammed so to do nothing will be unacceptable.

Champions League final sees hundred of thousands travelling into the city centre so at least similar numbers to Eurovision (similar with the trophy parades). Last season the kick off was delayed as well so the trains were nearly finished by the time the game finished. Taxis a nightmare to get as well unless you pre-book and the likes of Uber will rip you off.

They should at least have the night buses running across the city region and run Merseyrail to maybe 2am for trains out of Central.

 

[alholmes]

They should at least have the night buses running across the city region and run Merseyrail to maybe 2am for trains out of Central.

RTT shows that they will be running trains until about 0200. Wirral trains from Liverpool Central only; Southport / Ormskirk / Kirkby / Hunts Cross trains from Moorfields only.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

There is a lot going on behind the scenes with the TOCs and Eurovision, but people shouldnt be expecting massive amounts of extra trains.

What I'm expecting to see of the addtional extras is a handful of services with two extras running to Manchester, Brighouse (for Huddersfield, owing to the TransPennine Upgrade) and Leeds with Liverpool to Chester gaining two extras and the same with Southport. Preston would be easier with a couple of coaches being sent up the M58 and M6 with the whole lot being timed to depart Liverpool sometime between 0020 and 0150, as walking it from the docks to Lime Street takes a good ten minutes.

I would not be at all suprised if Merseytravel is also involved with the TOCs and the European Broadcasting Union considering that half of Liverpool One will need to close to manage foot traffic between Lime Street and the Arena.

 

[TUC]

As ever, the railway needs to learn to be flexible to meet market requirements, just like supermarkets and many other businesses. Meeting the needs of the public is the only reason the railway exists.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

As ever, the railway needs to learn to be flexible to meet market requirements, just like supermarkets and many other businesses. Meeting the needs of the public is the only reason the railway exists.

Absolutely. Network Rail hold the key to unlock mainline trains supporting this event. Will be train crew available for LNR if a decision is made in good time beforehand

 

[The exile]

As ever, the railway needs to learn to be flexible to meet market requirements, just like supermarkets and many other businesses. Meeting the needs of the public is the only reason the railway exists.

Or more realistically, the logistics of getting people home from the event and related ones should be part of the bidding process - no contracted arrangements; no win. While transport (and other providers) have to be flexible to a degree; organisers have to be realistic.

 

[43066]

As ever, the railway needs to learn to be flexible to meet market requirements, just like supermarkets and many other businesses. Meeting the needs of the public is the only reason the railway exists.

This is a one off event, and it isn’t the railway’s fault the organisers have chosen, in full knowledge of the local transport network, to have it finishing at 0000. So I’m not sure why it’s being described as a “rail nightmare”; it won’t be, as the railway will have finished running for the day!

That said, the railway and wider transport system in my part of the country would cope pretty well with this. We have services from 0500 to 0100, the night tube runs all night on Saturdays and there’s a comprehensive night bus network. So I would again question why they have chosen to hold this event in Liverpool which clearly isn’t geared up for it…

 

[childwallblues]

The venue cap is around 6k so small compared to a normal sell out show in there at 11k. Liverpool is a city with a very vibrant night life so all the screenings around the city will be no different to a bank holiday night out or a footy match at one of the stadiums in the city with people watching in bars.
The only difference here is the event in the arena finishes at midnight but then I imagine most of the crowd will be hardened Eurovision fans and won’t be heading straight home! They will be making the most of this and will party into the night.
I can’t see there being much of an issue to be honest!

Totally agree with your last comment. The city hosts other high profile events like the National and this year the Open Golf is about 10 miles away.

 

[D821]

Totally agree with your last comment. The city hosts other high profile events like the National and this year the Open Golf is about 10 miles away.

Indeed. It seems to regularly handle 50,000+ people at Anfield on European nights without the wheels coming off.
How many saw The Eagles or The Stones at Anfield last year? More than that, I assume.

 

[Bantamzen]

This is a one off event, and it isn’t the railway’s fault the organisers have chosen, in full knowledge of the local transport network, to have it finishing at 0000. So I’m not sure why it’s being described as a “rail nightmare”; it won’t be, as the railway will have finished running for the day!

That said, the railway and wider transport system in my part of the country would cope pretty well with this. We have services from 0500 to 0100, the night tube runs all night on Saturdays and there’s a comprehensive night bus network. So I would again question why they have chosen to hold this event in Liverpool which clearly isn’t geared up for it…

Indeed, its been quite clear from the off that public transport options for getting home around or after midnight we always going to be limited. Indeed the Merseytravel site quite clearly states:

Eurovision Travel Advice | Liverpool City Region | Merseytravel

Follow Merseytravel's travel advice for public transport in the Liverpool City Region during Eurovision 2023

www.merseytravel.gov.uk

Saturday 13 May - Final

Make sure you plan your journey to and from the event. As the grand final finishes late in the evening, please note that public transport services will be limited to get you home. More information about services and timetables will be made available in the coming weeks so keep checking with transport providers.

So people should be making plans around the fact that there will be very limited amounts of public transport options. Of course there may be other options, I'm sure some private coach operators will be offering travel from various main cities if required for example.

Of course we all know the following day some people will take to social media to complain of the "carnage" & "third world conditions" & "lack of human rights" as happens whenever some people don't engage brain and plan things, but that's pretty much par for the course these days. Most people though will just plan accordingly, and get home just fine. You'd think that this was the biggest event ever held in the history of humanity judging by some comments. Crikey, just they wait and see what it will be like in Liverpool if the UK / Ireland Euro 2028 bid is successful. There will be 53K+ coming to Everton's new stadium alone, let alone any fan zones!!

 

[Agent_Squash]

I was only considering flights to Liverpool, nobody even mentioned Manchester.

Truth be told, "anyone with any sense" will stay at home and watch on television... or not watch at all because Eurovision is a non-event.

This is such a dismissive view I almost thought you worked in the DfT!

It may not be your taste, but it is a cultural phenomenon. The fact is there is a massive pan-European community around the contest with hundreds of millions watching - including nearly 10 million in the UK alone.

It’s also receiving millions of government funding…

This is a one off event, and it isn’t the railway’s fault the organisers have chosen, in full knowledge of the local transport network, to have it finishing at 0000. So I’m not sure why it’s being described as a “rail nightmare”; it won’t be, as the railway will have finished running for the day!

That said, the railway and wider transport system in my part of the country would cope pretty well with this. We have services from 0500 to 0100, the night tube runs all night on Saturdays and there’s a comprehensive night bus network. So I would again question why they have chosen to hold this event in Liverpool which clearly isn’t geared up for it…

It may be a ‘one off’, but the main supporters behind the Liverpool bid were the City Region itself. The same city region which controls Merseytravel.

Liverpool absolutely has the capacity to support Eurovision. It’s just our railway doesn’t seem to support anything other than working hours and early evenings outside London.

 

[43066]

So people should be making plans around the fact that there will be very limited amounts of public transport options. Of course there may be other options, I'm sure some private coach operators will be offering travel from various main cities if required for example.

Indeed. Yet the OP complains that, by (sensibly) pointing this out, the “blame is being put onto the public”. Everything is always someone else’s fault in 2023 Britain.

Liverpool absolutely has the capacity to support Eurovision. It’s just our railway doesn’t seem to support anything other than working hours and early evenings outside London.

Because nobody is willing to pay for it? Some of those complaining about the lack of late night trains in Liverpool seem to be more in favour of reducing provision in London than increasing it elsewhere.

I’ll repeat, the organisers know full well what time the transport network operates, yet have chosen to finish this event at 0000. Presumably they think enough people will attend despite limited public transport, and if they don’t, whose fault is that really!? Yet somehow that’s the railways problem!

 

[Agent_Squash]

Because nobody is willing to pay for it? Some of those complaining about the lack of late night trains in Liverpool seem to be more in favour of reducing provision in London than increasing it elsewhere.

I’ll repeat, the organisers know full well what time the transport network operates, yet have chosen to finish this event at 0000. Presumably they think enough people will attend despite limited public transport, and if they don’t, whose fault is that really!? Yet somehow that’s the railways problem!

You’re treating this like it’s just another pop concert. It is in a way, but a lot more meticulous.

There are certain things that are expected in the EBU host city requirements, such as the show starts at 2100 CEST (2000 UK) and ends at 0100 CEST (0000 UK). These aren’t things that can be changed to suit the railway’s lack of service provision - they’re requirements to host the contest.

The Liverpool bid to host Eurovision was put together by the Liverpool City Region. Yes, the same city region which has full control over local public transport through Merseyrail, and a large sway over NR services. Therefore it’s wrong to suggest that it’s just ‘the railways problem’ considering the people planning it are responsible for a significant chunk of the local railways!

Nobody said reduce provision in London - the Elizabeth line is a great example of build it and they will come. The money is there but the government doesn’t have the strategic focus modal shift requires.

But ultimately, it is the railway’s problem when it’s the same people watching over the whole thing.

 

[L401CJF]

That said, the railway and wider transport system in my part of the country would cope pretty well with this. We have services from 0500 to 0100, the night tube runs all night on Saturdays and there’s a comprehensive night bus network. So I would again question why they have chosen to hold this event in Liverpool which clearly isn’t geared up for it…

Going back 20 odd years Liverpool also had a comprehensive night bus network on weekends, the final Arriva ones being cross-river N450, N37 and N23 withdrawn in July 2014. The Merseytravel contract 150 Liverpool to Birkenhead which ran every night of the week was knocked off shortly after.

The extension of bar/club opening hour laws killed most of them off as people were staggered through the night rather than a guaranteed kickout time. The final ones were killed off by Merseytravel insisting concession passes be accepted onboard, meaning Arriva upped the fare to £4 single to get any worthwhile % return for the concession pass scans (which are reimbursed at a % of the single fare). As a result it was mostly used by concession holders in the final days as people travelling in groups found it cheaper to get a taxi and split the cost.

In 2016 I think it was, Stagecoach introduced service N1 Liverpool to Chester on a Friday and Saturday night - using the normal day time fares and accepting all the usual prepaid passes including day tickets. Around the same time Arrivas 86A City-Airport went 24hour operation. I can't comment for the 86A as i never used it, but the N1 I drove a few times and was often packed. I caught it home one morning and it was full and standing through the tunnel! Very few stayed on beyond Little Sutton and was often empty before Chester. Eventually it was curtailed to run as far as Eastham/Bromborough before Covid finished it off - along with the last normal service 1 of the evening from Liverpool which I don't think has returned. The evening frequency also dropped to every hour instead of every 30 and continued well after the lockdowns. I'm not sure it ever returned.

I think the 86A 24hour service was lost due to covid too and as far as I know never came back.

 

[Bantamzen]

You’re treating this like it’s just another pop concert. It is in a way, but a lot more meticulous.

There are certain things that are expected in the EBU host city requirements, such as the show starts at 2100 CEST (2000 UK) and ends at 0100 CEST (0000 UK). These aren’t things that can be changed to suit the railway’s lack of service provision - they’re requirements to host the contest.

The Liverpool bid to host Eurovision was put together by the Liverpool City Region. Yes, the same city region which has full control over local public transport through Merseyrail, and a large sway over NR services. Therefore it’s wrong to suggest that it’s just ‘the railways problem’ considering the people planning it are responsible for a significant chunk of the local railways!

Nobody said reduce provision in London - the Elizabeth line is a great example of build it and they will come. The money is there but the government doesn’t have the strategic focus modal shift requires.

But ultimately, it is the railway’s problem when it’s the same people watching over the whole thing.

Liverpool City Region didn't make the decision though. If having public transport is such a key factor of the event, why isn't it in the requirements? If anything a host city would want people attending to stay as long as possible afterwards, to spend money in the locals restaurants, bars & clubs (and I suspect many will). For the rest, well they've had plenty of time to plan how to get home with very limited, if any public transport options.

There's much wrong with the rail industry right now, but this is not one of the problems.

 

[dosxuk]

This will be the earliest finish of a Eurovision event for many years. I especially don't think the Baku city authorities were wanting revellers to go out after their event finished at gone 3AM.

As above, this isn't some pop concert that the organisers have messed up the timings of, the local organisers have zero say in that.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Liverpool City Region didn't make the decision though. If having public transport is such a key factor of the event, why isn't it in the requirements? If anything a host city would want people attending to stay as long as possible afterwards, to spend money in the locals restaurants, bars & clubs (and I suspect many will). For the rest, well they've had plenty of time to plan how to get home with very limited, if any public transport options.

There's much wrong with the rail industry right now, but this is not one of the problems.

By expressing interest and putting in a bid, they are accountable.

Most European host cities view public transport as important regardless. It's only the UK on the managed decline route.

Eurovision (and the coronation the week before) are great opportunities for the rail industry to show how vital it is.

 

[Starmill]

If won't be a nightmare if there's simply no service because it finishes too late for there to be a service one can reasonably catch. The additional Northern services after midnight haven't been advertised.

 

[Bantamzen]

Other Eurovision host cities don’t put on extra rail services either, Turin didn’t last year, Rotterdam didn’t in 2021, Vienna didn’t in 2015, there’s many examples. If extra transport is put on it’ll be buses.

By expressing interest and putting in a bid, they are accountable.

Most European host cities view public transport as important regardless. It's only the UK on the managed decline route.

Eurovision (and the coronation the week before) are great opportunities for the rail industry to show how vital it is.

I refer you to the above, and those cities will have been kicking punters out at 0100 CET. The responsibility for getting home lies primarily to those buying tickets. They will be aware when the event ends, they should also make themselves aware what options there are for getting home, going out, or finding accommodation. If national / regional / local transport authorities can lay on extra resources then great, but its maybe worth remembering at this point that we are still in the middle of industrial disputes, working to rule etc. Can you imagine extra services to be advertised long in advance only to be cancelled with just 2 weeks notice.

I'm sorry but if I had booked a ticket for this event, the first thing I'd be checking was how I might get away from it to another venue, hotel or home. If, as would have been the case there were no public transport available then I wouldn't factor it in or expect it.

 

[43066]

You’re treating this like it’s just another pop concert. It is in a way, but a lot more meticulous.

Okay, it’s a large pop concert.

There are certain things that are expected in the EBU host city requirements, such as the show starts at 2100 CEST (2000 UK) and ends at 0100 CEST (0000 UK). These aren’t things that can be changed to suit the railway’s lack of service provision - they’re requirements to host the contest.

The Liverpool bid to host Eurovision was put together by the Liverpool City Region. Yes, the same city region which has full control over local public transport through Merseyrail, and a large sway over NR services. Therefore it’s wrong to suggest that it’s just ‘the railways problem’ considering the people planning it are responsible for a significant chunk of the local railways!

In that case, the fault is surely with whoever decided to award it to Liverpool.

Nobody said reduce provision in London - the Elizabeth line is a great example of build it and they will come. The money is there but the government doesn’t have the strategic focus modal shift requires.

I completely agree with this. But, as to your last sentence, certain posters do have a tendency to bemoan the cost of the railway (@TUC recently described it as a “drain on the national economy”), yet now apparently expects it to be flexible enough to cope with 200,000 people wanting to leave Liverpool at midnight, as part of a one off event.

You can’t have it both ways!

But ultimately, it is the railway’s problem when it’s the same people watching over the whole thing.

It’s the problem of whoever has decided to make the bid, and whoever decided to accept that bid. Perhaps, as suggested above, the expectation is that most revellers will continue until the morning, in which case it’s a non issue.

If won't be a nightmare if there's simply no service because it finishes too late for there to be a service one can reasonably catch. The additional Northern services after midnight haven't been advertised.

If I turn up at any business and expect to be served when said business is closed, that’s my problem, not theirs.

 

[dosxuk]

Also worth stating that midnight is the scheduled broadcast finish - it is very rare indeed for Eurovision to come off air on time - and it's unlikely many of the audience will have left the arena by half twelve. The vast majority of the audience will know this and made their plans appropriately - add in walking time and the realistic earliest service you could plan for is going to be 1am. With normal Saturday departures having all left by midnight anyway - which is the information people will have had when looking at their options - why would anyone plan to use the railway for transport?

 

[WAB]

Eurovision is almost a civic event, and should thus be provided for accordingly. It's not that difficult to get right, just requires some funding and willpower.

 

[6Gman]

I refer you to the above, and those cities will have been kicking punters out at 0100 CET. The responsibility for getting home lies primarily to those buying tickets. They will be aware when the event ends, they should also make themselves aware what options there are for getting home, going out, or finding accommodation. If national / regional / local transport authorities can lay on extra resources then great, but its maybe worth remembering at this point that we are still in the middle of industrial disputes, working to rule etc. Can you imagine extra services to be advertised long in advance only to be cancelled with just 2 weeks notice.

I'm sorry but if I had booked a ticket for this event, the first thing I'd be checking was how I might get away from it to another venue, hotel or home. If, as would have been the case there were no public transport available then I wouldn't factor it in or expect it.

I was thinking exactly this.

When I book for a concert or event I check on how to get there and back, where to stay etc. as part of the process.

I don't book the tickets and somewhere to stay and then - a few weeks before the event - start wondering if there will be trains running.

 

[markymark2000]

Being a local I can assure you that the volume of the venue has nothing to do with it. Every pub / bar is doing something, every hotel is sold out and you couldn't get anything within 50miles once announced. There will be a lot travelling in and out from that periphery.

I'm just looking for Saturday 13th May-Sunday 14th May (which is the night of the final) and there are plenty of hotel rooms available to book. Easyhotel on Castle Street is doing rooms for £292. Premier Inn Rainhill offering the night for £100. Travelodge on Edge Lane has rooms available but they are pricy. There are shed loads of hotel rooms still going, certainly within 50 miles! Everyone booked hotel rooms when it was announced in preparation for them getting tickets, if people didn't get tickets, they then cancelled their hotel rooms.

 

[kels430]

The grand national tonight will have problems too, transpennine have cancelled the 17:54, 18:54 and 20:54 out of Liverpool to Newcastle/Leeds.