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Eurovision Liverpool, a rail nightmare waiting to happen.

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AGH

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I'm just looking for Saturday 13th May-Sunday 14th May (which is the night of the final) and there are plenty of hotel rooms available to book. Easyhotel on Castle Street is doing rooms for £292. Premier Inn Rainhill offering the night for £100. Travelodge on Edge Lane has rooms available but they are pricy. There are shed loads of hotel rooms still going, certainly within 50 miles! Everyone booked hotel rooms when it was announced in preparation for them getting tickets, if people didn't get tickets, they then cancelled their hotel rooms.
That Easy Hotel is very much a budget hotel any other night. No one will pay that so as you note it drives people out of the centre into the periphery. That's where transport is needed. Rainhill good 25 mins out on the train, longer on a bus. Extra provision outside of Merseyrail electrics is required. I know people who are staying in Runcorn so it needs to be co-ordinated
 
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Parjon

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The grand national tonight will have problems too, transpennine have cancelled at least the 17:54, 18:54 and 20:54 out of Liverpool to Newcastle/Leeds.
That sentence needs a couple of extra words, to cover the normal state of affairs. The company really is a disgrace.
 

Krokodil

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This is a one off event, and it isn’t the railway’s fault the organisers have chosen, in full knowledge of the local transport network, to have it finishing at 0000. So I’m not sure why it’s being described as a “rail nightmare”; it won’t be, as the railway will have finished running for the day!
To be fair, from what other posters have been saying, Merseyrail will be pulling the stops out so anyone going to the Wirral/Southport etc. will be catered for. If Network Rail manage to have the line open, it sounds like LNW will be able to cover passengers returning to Runcorn and Crewe. Northern may run something to Manchester.
 

Watershed

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To be fair, from what other posters have been saying, Merseyrail will be pulling the stops out so anyone going to the Wirral/Southport etc. will be catered for. If Network Rail manage to have the line open, it sounds like LNW will be able to cover passengers returning to Runcorn and Crewe. Northern may run something to Manchester.
I think Northern have already added in the additional services that they'll be running - all unadvertised, naturally :rolleyes:

Their last services will be:

00:10 to Wigan North Western
00:36 to Warrington Central
00:40 to St Helens Central
00:50 to Manchester Victoria

It looks like Merseyrail are running all Northern line services from Moorfields and all Wirral line services from Central, so it seems a degree of crowd control/management is in place.
 

childwallblues

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CHAPS2034

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Or more realistically, the logistics of getting people home from the event and related ones should be part of the bidding process - no contracted arrangements; no win. While transport (and other providers) have to be flexible to a degree; organisers have to be realistic.

If having public transport is such a key factor of the event, why isn't it in the requirements?

Do you know that public and ground transport was not part of the bid requirements?

I'm sure it would be and the EBU assessment team would have looked at this element as well as all the other requirements (eg venue availability and capacity, hotel accommodation for participants, staff and vistors etc etc).

I worked on the assessment of airports and capacities for Euro 2012 in Ukraine and Poland (an interesting exercise in itself!) and we had a comprehensive requirement for air and ground transportation in the bid documents along with many other requirements. There were several teams evaluating the different elements such as ground capacity and facilities, accommodation and training camps etc.

At the end of the day the winning locations were always a compromise as one element would be superb - for example the footy ground, but the city would be short of suitable accommodation or had a sub-standard airport.

So I'm sure Liverpool has a transport strategy for it, but the details are only now coming out as things are confirmed.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the period and what after event feedback will come out.
 

43066

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Do you know that public and ground transport was not part of the bid requirements?

That seems utterly ridiculous, to the point of irresponsibility, but presumably is down to the event organisers.

If only Brexit had included leaving the EBU, as well as the EU, we would be well shot of it!
 

Robertj21a

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I think Northern have already added in the additional services that they'll be running - all unadvertised, naturally :rolleyes:

Their last services will be:

00:10 to Wigan North Western
00:36 to Warrington Central
00:40 to St Helens Central
00:50 to Manchester Victoria

It looks like Merseyrail are running all Northern line services from Moorfields and all Wirral line services from Central, so it seems a degree of crowd control/management is in place.
Aren't those times too close to the likely end of the performance?
 

CHAPS2034

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That seems utterly ridiculous, to the point of irresponsibility, but presumably is down to the event organisers.

If only Brexit had included leaving the EBU, as well as the EU, we would be well shot of it!

I think you misinterpreted my post

I was questioning Bantzamen who was suggesting it wasn't in the requirements in post 80. I can't believe that, but I don't know for sure.

If it wasn't in the bidding city requirements, that's a major omission.
 

Efini92

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As a Manchester Uni graduate I knew about Jillys/Rockworld but never actually went there! All nighters weren't for me though, I tended to feel like death by about 3am and want to go home.
You missed out, jilly’s was a rite of passage.
 

Bantamzen

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I think you misinterpreted my post

I was questioning Bantzamen who was suggesting it wasn't in the requirements in post 80. I can't believe that, but I don't know for sure.

If it wasn't in the bidding city requirements, that's a major omission.
Well think about it, if it were in the requirements then why did Liverpool get it? And as previously mentioned whilst it ends in Liverpool at 12am, somewhelike Baku would see a 3am finish. Which is why most people, well sensible people will not assume that there will be adequate public transport and make their own arrangements.
 

DanNCL

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If having public transport is such a key factor of the event, why isn't it in the requirements?
Do you know that public and ground transport was not part of the bid requirements?

I'm sure it would be and the EBU assessment team would have looked at this element as well as all the other requirements (eg venue availability and capacity, hotel accommodation for participants, staff and vistors etc etc).

I worked on the assessment of airports and capacities for Euro 2012 in Ukraine and Poland (an interesting exercise in itself!) and we had a comprehensive requirement for air and ground transportation in the bid documents along with many other requirements. There were several teams evaluating the different elements such as ground capacity and facilities, accommodation and training camps etc.

At the end of the day the winning locations were always a compromise as one element would be superb - for example the footy ground, but the city would be short of suitable accommodation or had a sub-standard airport.

So I'm sure Liverpool has a transport strategy for it, but the details are only now coming out as things are confirmed.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the period and what after event feedback will come out.
There are no specific ground transport requirements for Eurovision although ground transport provision is considered when assessing a city's bid and a city deemed to have an inadequate transport network is unlikely to be selected. The three key requirements a city must meet are having an International Airport (or being close to an International Airport if there isn't one within the city itself), an arena with a minimum capacity of 10,000 that could be vacated for a 6-8 week period, capability of providing a press facility to host a minimum of 1,500 journalists, and hotel accomodation for at least 2,000 spectators, delegates and journalists. All bidding cities that met the criteria, with the exception of London and Belfast, were shortlisted. The initial shortlist was Birmingham, Glasgow, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle, later narrowed down to Liverpool and Glasgow with Liverpool ultimately chosen.
Under EBU rules the government of the host country is allowed input into the selection process but the final decision lies jointly with the EBU and the BBC. It wouldn't surprise me if there was government influence behind the decision to exclude London from the shortlist.

One has to question if Liverpool does meet the criteria given that three previously participating countries (Bulgaria, Montenegro and North Macedonia) chose not to participate this year citing issues with accomodation in Liverpool. But I think that problem would ultimately have been an issue anywhere in the UK, such is the nature of our hotel market. Probably also worth noting that the three withdrawing countries all failed to qualify from the semi finals last year and may not entirely be telling the truth about why they withdrew from this years contest.
 

tommy2215

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One has to question if Liverpool does meet the criteria given that three previously participating countries (Bulgaria, Montenegro and North Macedonia) chose not to participate this year citing issues with accomodation in Liverpool. But I think that problem would ultimately have been an issue anywhere in the UK, such is the nature of our hotel market. Probably also worth noting that the three withdrawing countries all failed to qualify from the semi finals last year and may not entirely be telling the truth about why they withdrew from this years contest.
This bit is absurd. That is absolutely not why they withdrew. Its because of the huge entry fee in participating.
 

Parjon

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One has to question if Liverpool does meet the criteria given that three previously participating countries (Bulgaria, Montenegro and North Macedonia) chose not to participate this year citing issues with accomodation in Liverpool. But I think that problem would ultimately have been an issue anywhere in the UK, such is the nature of our hotel market. Probably also worth noting that the three withdrawing countries all failed to qualify from the semi finals last year and may not entirely be telling the truth about why they withdrew from this years contest.
You have the EBU criteria, so why does one have to question whether Liverpool met those. The result of the bid itself is self explanatory.

As the country's 4th/5th most visited city, we have plenty of room despite any price gougers.

As at 2019, the city had around 7,000 rooms in the city centre alone. More have been added since.

Source: https://www.investliverpool.com/news/three-new-liverpool-hotels-approved/

Any difficulty finding room is a combination of standard Eurovision fare plus no doubt the additional pull of our city itself.
 
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43066

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As at 2019, the city had around 7,000 rooms in the city centre alone. More have been added since.

I suppose the question is how many of those rooms are accessible by what limited public transport there is late at night in Liverpool. If even half of the (barely believable) 200,000 visitors actually materialise, that’ll be a tall order for a relatively small city which has a population of less than one million.

Presumably many will be staying in Manchester, Crewe etc.
 

Parjon

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I suppose the question is how many of those rooms are accessible by what limited public transport there is late at night in Liverpool. If even half of the (barely believable) 200,000 visitors actually materialise, that’ll be a tall order for a relatively small city which has a population of less than one million.

Presumably many will be staying in Manchester, Crewe etc.
All of those rooms are in the city centre and so walking time between 1 and 45 minutes of the venue.

The city borough has a population of half a million. The actual city is well over a million, with the infrastructure to match. "Relatively small" compared to London. Relatively large compared to most places in the UK.
 

CHAPS2034

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There are no specific ground transport requirements for Eurovision although ground transport provision is considered when assessing a city's bid and a city deemed to have an inadequate transport network is unlikely to be selected.
Interesting, but at least it is one of the factors considered.

Under EBU rules the government of the host country is allowed input into the selection process but the final decision lies jointly with the EBU and the BBC. It wouldn't surprise me if there was government influence behind the decision to exclude London from the shortlist.

I'm quite sure there was Government influence in this, probably down to the final choice too. It was very interesting, to say the least, during Euro 2012
 

DanNCL

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This bit is absurd. That is absolutely not why they withdrew. Its because of the huge entry fee in participating.
It was a combination of factors that led to their withdrawal. It was the overall cost, including both the entry fee and accomodation which was already being advertised at excessive prices when those countries withdrew.

As I suggested earlier though, regardless what they publicly said, their poor results last year are much more likely to be the real main reason behind their withdrawal.

You have the EBU criteria, so why does one have to question whether Liverpool met those. The result of the bid itself is self explanatory.

As the country's 4th/5th most visited city, we have plenty of room despite any price gougers.

As at 2019, the city had around 7,000 rooms in the city centre alone. More have been added since.

Source: https://www.investliverpool.com/news/three-new-liverpool-hotels-approved/

Any difficulty finding room is a combination of standard Eurovision fare plus no doubt the additional pull of our city itself.
The EBU criteria specifies that those hotel rooms must cover a variety of budgets. If even Easy Hotel are charging in excess of £200 the city clearly isn't providing hotels that cover a variety of budgets. This is where Liverpool (or indeed most UK cities if put in the same situation) appears to fall foul, not on the total number of rooms which unquestionably does meet the criteria.

I'm quite sure there was Government influence in this, probably down to the final choice too. It was very interesting, to say the least, during Euro 2012
That will all depend on how much influence the government had in this on the supposedly neutral BBC. Officially it's a 50/50 decision between the BBC and the EBU, in practice it's more likely to have been a case of the BBC proposing the venue and the EBU going along with it unless they had any specific reason against the choice of city.
 

43066

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As I suggested earlier though, regardless what they publicly said, their poor results last year are much more likely to be the real main reason behind their withdrawal.

It’s just hard to believe there any countries who take Eurovision that seriously. Does anybody still actually watch it!?
 

DanNCL

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It’s just hard to believe there any countries who take Eurovision that seriously. Does anybody still actually watch it!?
Yes, loads of people! It's particularly popular with younger generations, and especially the LGBT+ community.

In the UK TV viewing is usually around the 7 million mark, or roughly 45-50% of those watching TV at the time. In some countries it's considerably more popular, well into the 90%+ range in some of the Nordic countries.
 

Energy

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That will all depend on how much influence the government had in this on the supposedly neutral BBC. Officially it's a 50/50 decision between the BBC and the EBU, in practice it's more likely to have been a case of the BBC proposing the venue and the EBU going along with it unless they had any specific reason against the choice of city.
Eurovision requires a quite big block of availability at the right time for the venue, the O2 was already booked at the time iirc. OVO Glasgow Arena had the availability as well.
 

DanNCL

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Eurovision requires a quite big block of availability at the right time for the venue, the O2 was already booked at the time iirc. OVO Glasgow Arena had the availability as well.
I think all venues were booked for part of the time including both the Glasgow Arena and Liverpool Arena, so there was always going to be an element of rescheduling involved. The difference really was who was prepared to reschedule stuff and who wasn’t - Cardiff and Sunderland both met the hosting criteria and had bid, but weren’t willing to turf the sports teams out of their venues for the 6 weeks required hence didn’t make the shortlist, or more accurately they ‘withdrew’ immediately before the shortlist was announced.
 

negone

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As the OP I should have mentioned that the Giants and the Three Queens got 1.3 mil visitors each. The Grand National has 150,000 and the Liverpool FC homecoming route a similar figure, So 200,000 is probably a conservative estimate, If it does get 1 mil day visitors, what are they going to do or see to bring them here. As I cant imagine that the performers will be allowed to sing outside of the official venues.
Sorry a correction. Police said 750,000 along the Liverpool FC homecoming route.
 
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Parjon

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The EBU criteria specifies that those hotel rooms must cover a variety of budgets. If even Easy Hotel are charging in excess of £200 the city clearly isn't providing hotels that cover a variety of budgets. This is where Liverpool (or indeed most UK cities if put in the same situation) appears to fall foul, not on the total number of rooms which unquestionably does meet the criteria
At time of bidding, the rooms will have covered all budgets. The only place I can think of that could ensure rooms remained at the same price and did not respond to demand driven pricing is Pyongyang.

Hotel price jumps for the event are normal and occur every year.
 
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It’s just hard to believe there any countries who take Eurovision that seriously. Does anybody still actually watch it!?
Over 160 million watched it live in 2022 (either on broadcast TV or streaming) bit of a dip as Russia and Belarus had been chucked out the EBU so that dropped the numbers. #

Many countries take it very seriously with their national finals being almost as big a deal as ESC itself. Bigger if you are in Sweden with Melodifestivalen or Italy with Festival di Sanremo (although Sanremo predates ESC and is much more than just a selection show).
As DanNCL has already said it has a very strong following in the LGBT+ community, particularly with gay men (this years Benidorm Fest was a spot-the-femaile version of where's wally - the audience demographic was somewhat skewed!)
Here in the UK the official UK fanclub is by far the biggest of all the affiliated OGAE International fanclubs
 

dosxuk

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even half of the (barely believable) 200,000 visitors actually materialise, that’ll be a tall order for a relatively small city which has a population of less than one million.
The 200,000 is not the expected number of visitors for the Saturday night final, it's the total number of visitors expected for the over a week of events. While some may only be there for the grand final, others will be there all week, and others will only be there for a random day during the week.
Does anybody still actually watch it!?
Eurovision is one of, if not the, most watched annual events on the planet. Only football world cups and summer Olympics can expect to get higher viewing figures, and they're only every four years. The US superbowl is one of the few events that appear on the same list, but is normally easily beaten. Even in the UK it often appears on the list of most watched programmes that year. So yes, lots and lots of people watch it.
 

rich.davies

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I feel for those staying over the border and going to the Final. No chance of getting back to Wrexham (for example), nearest they could get too is Chester on the 1.15am departure from Liverpool Central..They would need to leave the arena at 9.30pm at the latest to get back via the train.

One would think they have looked at this and sorted alternative transport.
 

markymark2000

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I feel for those staying over the border and going to the Final. No chance of getting back to Wrexham (for example), nearest they could get too is Chester on the 1.15am departure from Liverpool Central..They would need to leave the arena at 9.30pm at the latest to get back via the train.
They would have to leave earlier than that. It would be the 9.15pm train from Central, into Chester 22:01 for the 22:34 train to Wrexham. The only other way to do it would be 10.15pm train from Central to Chester and then connect onto the last trip on the Arriva 1 to Wrexham.
Anyone going up the coast would be last 9.45pm train from Central, into Chester 22:31 then 22:40 train to Llandudno Jct.



Revised timetables on RealTimeTrains suggest that all lines (except Ellesmere Port) will drop down to every 20 minutes. I presume this is so that they can run more doubles but in some ways, the logic seems backwards. Big event in the city and the frequency drops. You best hope that it's all doubles else all hell will break loose.
 

childwallblues

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They would have to leave earlier than that. It would be the 9.15pm train from Central, into Chester 22:01 for the 22:34 train to Wrexham. The only other way to do it would be 10.15pm train from Central to Chester and then connect onto the last trip on the Arriva 1 to Wrexham.
Anyone going up the coast would be last 9.45pm train from Central, into Chester 22:31 then 22:40 train to Llandudno Jct.



Revised timetables on RealTimeTrains suggest that all lines (except Ellesmere Port) will drop down to every 20 minutes. I presume this is so that they can run more doubles but in some ways, the logic seems backwards. Big event in the city and the frequency drops. You best hope that it's all doubles else all hell will break loose.
Not everybody who will attend the event drinks and therefore can drive if they wish. Merseyrail has free parking on the Chester line except for Hooton and Chester. Hooton however is very handy for people from North Wales. The car park has over 400 spaces and costs £1. It is located at the end of the A550 "The Welsh Road" from Deeside and has six trains an hour into Central Liverpool.
 

markymark2000

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Not everybody who will attend the event drinks and therefore can drive if they wish. Merseyrail has free parking on the Chester line except for Hooton and Chester. Hooton however is very handy for people from North Wales. The car park has over 400 spaces and costs £1. It is located at the end of the A550 "The Welsh Road" from Deeside and has six trains an hour into Central Liverpool.
I agree that not everyone will get the train. The examples for train times were for information with what Rich.davies was saying. It was not a criticism.

The only criticism was the bottom paragraph about them reducing the frequencies which may affect some people wanting to do the Park and Ride that you suggest.
 
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