Euston - how could services be re-routed if it were to be rebuilt?

[Bletchleyite]

From the main thread as I think this warrants its own:

As for the Euston, the only place where it might be possible to spin some services would be Harrow and Wealdstone were customers could get on the Bakerloo line.

Whatever way you look at it, there isn't anywhere which can be used as a temporary terminus at short notice. As Finsbury Park proved a decade ago, there isn't anywhere with the physical capicity.

The only viable one for IC services is probably Old Oak, i.e. put them onto HS2 sooner than planned. You'd realistically have to keep something open for commuter services - the Bakerloo wouldn't cope. Could probably do it with four 12 car platforms if the peak extras were replaced with longer formations, though.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Could Overground trains on Lioness line be sent via Kensington Olympia to Clapham junction (and are there enough dual voltage 710s)?

Can LNWR turn around at Wembley Central or would they need to turn around at Watford Junction?

Things would probably be similar to when the area was closed for upgrades in the Virgin era

 

[The Planner]

Factor in what needs to be done at any other station, or line, that is seeing diverted or terminating short trains. Its not just a case of "oh, just turn round here".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Things would probably be similar to when the area was closed for upgrades in the Virgin era

That was a very well-run operation, but it was only on weekends!

 

[Starmill]

The Bakerloo line doesn't actually offer that much capacity to stations north of Queens Park relative to the LNR and London Overground services. Realistically a new fleet plan probably needs to be in place for it, but that wouldn't be complete for over ten years even if ordered this month.

 

[waverley47]

Realistically, the only viable option would be turning everything long distance around at Milton Keynes and shuttling buses back and forward to Bedford.

You couldn't turn everything around closer to London, the only realistic option would be Watford Junction and you couldn't shunt everything on to the Overground (Euston would still be shut) and there aren't enough Bakerloo trains to run that far out.

Hemel Hempstead is close enough to St Alban's to run a bus shuttle but the pointwork isnt there to turn everything fast enough, the station isn't big enough to handle that number of passengers.

Neither Harrow and Wealdstone or Wembley Central have the space or capacity, even with the tube.

It's Milton Keynes or nothing really.

You'd run a fast shuttle on the Chiltern line to take pressure of Birmingham, and bump up capacity on the Midland route to help somewhat, but most of the passengers would have a thirty minute bus transfer to Bedford and spend the remainder of the journey on an empty Thameslink.


It's what they did from Corby to Grantham with the ECML and while it's an unpleasant transfer, it's not particularly difficult to make it work properly.

 

[robspaceman]

Manchester to St Pancras as per Project Rio a few years back?

 

[waverley47]

Manchester to St Pancras as per Project Rio a few years back?

Realistically, you'd manage 1tph maximum, and that would just be unhelpfully overcrowded. You'd also run into problems of what do you cancel to find the spare staff, what do you cancel to find the paths.

1tph would likely be less useful than just not bothering, because it encourages people to try and take the direct train, making it overcrowded.

It's more likely they'd try and use any spare capacity out of St Pancras just running shuttles to Bedford to soak up passengers.

 

[swt_passenger]

Could Overground trains on Lioness line be sent via Kensington Olympia to Clapham junction (and are there enough dual voltage 710s)?

There aren’t any suitable track routes to make the connection, (ie DC to WLL), as far as I can see. That’s why when they want to run the DC while they can’t reach Euston they usually divert them via the Primrose Hill route.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Realistically, the only viable option would be turning everything long distance around at Milton Keynes and shuttling buses back and forward to Bedford.

Would you need buses, though?

You could run some non stop full length trains as a shuttle between Bletchley and Bedford - they wouldn't be stopping at the intermediate stations so you're not going to be restricted to 2 carriages each... have them at 20 minute intervals with one of them running immediately ahead of the local services at the origin point... combine that with the 12 car 700s south from Bedford and you'd be shifting quite a lot of the passengers; the rest could be absorbed by the other suggestions.

 

[waverley47]

Would you need buses, though?

You could run some non stop full length trains as a shuttle between Bletchley and Bedford - they wouldn't be stopping at the intermediate stations so you're not going to be restricted to 2 carriages each... have them at 20 minute intervals with one of them running immediately ahead of the local services at the origin point... combine that with the 12 car 700s south from Bedford and you'd be shifting quite a lot of the passengers; the rest could be absorbed by the other suggestions.

Again, where do you find four or five eight coach diesel sets spare for a month? That's anywhere between 30-40 coaches you'd need, and finding that spare anywhere on the network is unlikely at best. And is there enough platform capacity at Bedford to do this, while fitting around other services?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Again, where do you find four or five eight coach diesel sets spare for a month? That's anywhere between 30-40 coaches you'd need, and finding that spare anywhere on the network is unlikely at best. And is there enough platform capacity at Bedford to do this, while fitting around other services?

Charter rakes, CDL fitted air cons with a 47 at each end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Charter rakes, CDL fitted air cons with a 47 at each end.

Perhaps it would be justification just to wire the thing as has needed to be done for years, then you could use double 350s which aren't running between Bletchley and Euston. For bonus points, wire EWR and run 8 car Oxford fasts too.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Perhaps it would be justification just to wire the thing as has needed to be done for years, then you could use double 350s which aren't running between Bletchley and Euston. For bonus points, wire EWR and run 8 car Oxford fasts too.

I'd 100% agree the entire east - west should be wired, but that's a matter for a separate thread, I fear?

 

[NIT100]

As people have said above, there isn't a lot you can do without major infrastructure works and timetable re-casts.

However the below is what I thought of with a LOT of enabling infrastructure works and even new rolling stock, these would probably take at least 4 years if started immediately.

• 4 Track from Camden Road West Junction to Highbury & Islington
• Extend East London Line services from Highbury & Islington to Watford Junction (4tph)
• Extend East London Line services from Highbury & Islington to Tring (2tph)
• Extend East London Line services from Highbury & Islington to Milton Keynes Central (2tph)
• Re-route Birmingham New Street LNWR Stoppers to Liverpool Street via Graham Road Curve (2tph)
• Combine Corby Service with London Blackfriars to Sevenoaks Thameslink service (2tph) (Or some other re-arrangement of Thameslink services to enable)
• Use 2tph additional paths at St Pancras for 2tph to Manchester, routes could either be via Nuneaton, via Uttoxeter or via Hope valley
• Build new Battery S-Stock, transfer Aylesbury Met Line services (2tph) to TFL and divert to Baker Street, might need 4th rail charging at Aylesbury Vale Parkway
• Use these paths to run 2tph to Birmingham New Street, 1 via Coventry - makes 4 tph Birmingham to London via Chiltern
• Aylesbury to Princes Risborough remains as shuttle
• Extend 1tph from Edinburgh to Glasgow Central
• Divert Sleeper into Kings Cross
• Divert Chester / Holyhead service to Waterloo or Victoria via West London Line
• Curtail Glasgow Central WCML service to Carlisle / Blackpool and divert to Waterloo or Victoria via West London Line OR run a Glasgow Central to Milton Keynes service
• 1 tph Manchester to Milton Keynes Trent Valley Service
• 1 tph Scotland to Birmingham New Street

Diversions / Extras into Paddington would only really be achievable once Old Oak Common on GWML is finished. Both Euston and Paddington can't realistically be closed at the same time.

You could then:

• Extend Oxford Fast Services Northward, and reinforce
• Extend CrossCountry Newcastle - Reading services to Paddington, and reinforce

Would probably also need completion of freight upgrades to allow more Felixstowe traffic to run via Peterborough as well.

All the above is entirely speculative.

In terms of rolling stock, you could swap SWR 5-car 701/5s for 350/1s and dual voltage any extra 350/2s needed. Then use the 701/5s on the East London Line Extensions.

221s and 222s would need to be used for none electrified intercity routes, as well as 67s with mark 4s from LNER and 68s with Mark 5a. 390s would not be well utilised.

 

[Steve Harris]

From the main thread as I think this warrants its own:



The only viable one for IC services is probably Old Oak, i.e. put them onto HS2 sooner than planned. You'd realistically have to keep something open for commuter services - the Bakerloo wouldn't cope. Could probably do it with four 12 car platforms if the peak extras were replaced with longer formations, though.

For context, my full original post was :

Hmmm.... I think suggesting Finsbury Park can be used as a temporary terminus is stretching things.... do you not remember Christmas 2014 when it was used as a temporary terminus!

It had to be closed due to overcrowding!!!

As for the Euston, the only place where it might be possible to spin some services would be Harrow and Wealdstone were customers could get on the Bakerloo line.

Whatever way you look at it, there isn't anywhere which can be used as a temporary terminus at short notice. As Finsbury Park proved a decade ago, there isn't anywhere with the physical capicity.

Which was in reply to :

I wondered in terms of disruption, Kings Cross on the ECML ( and Thameslink as well ) has Finsbury park not that far away, which is a fairly big station with underground access. It can be used as a temporary terminus and turn around if Kings Cross is "fouled" up or overcrowed. Does Euston have the equivalent ? - a possible "Stop and turn around" point with 10 minutes running of Euston? If Euston was overcrowded could they stop some trains short ??

Which should of been the post to open this new thread.

 

[HSTEd]

Is the loading gauge for the Bakerloo the same as the other 2024 stock lines?

If so, could you temporarily take over those trains to run a large scale Bakerloo line service to Watford Junction? The existing stock would just have to continue on in service for a few extra months.
It would require a fourth rail to be reinstated and probably some power upgrades, but no additional trackwork?

You could then turn a few trains around at each of the relevant stations with crossovers (Watford Junction, Wembley Central and Queens Park)

EDIT: You might be able to use Harold and Wealdstone but you'd have to run empties all the way down to North Wembley junction and thats probably too unwieldy.

We'd be looking at a closure of the existing station at Euston for several months whilst they tear it all down and get some temporary open air platforms open.

 

[DaveyJones]

You might be able to use Harold and Wealdstone but you'd have to run empties all the way down to North Wembley junction and thats probably too unwieldy.

Which is exactly what Virgin did, Services Terminated at Harrow and Wealdstone, then ran either onto Wembley or onto the Independent lines to turn and come back to start services from Harrow

 

[HSTEd]

Which is exactly what Virgin did, Services Terminated at Harrow and Wealdstone, then ran either onto Wembley or onto the Independent lines to turn and come back to start services from Harrow

Doing that with enough trains to keep service going for months (rather than only at weekends) might be challenging.

You could flight trains to every available platform. Each cycle one train terminates at Watford Junction, Bushey, Harrow and Wealdstone, Wembley Central and Queens Park. Then the trains reverse using whatever crossovers are available and load at the adjacent northbound platform before returning north. Scrape up 2024 stock trains to reinforce the Bakerloo (maybe extend back to Watford Junction temporarily) and run bus transfers to nearby other underground or National Rail lines.

Is the WCML south of Watford set up for any form of bi-di signalling?

 

[jfollows]

Is the WCML south of Watford set up for any form of bi-di signalling?

No.
https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/lec2#LINK_1 for example

 

[Transilien]

Is there any viable alternative routes for Liverpool services?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there any viable alternative routes for Liverpool services?

Liverpool-Stafford-Banbury-Chiltern line-Marylebone using 805s?

 

[waverley47]

Doing that with enough trains to keep service going for months (rather than only at weekends) might be challenging.

You could flight trains to every available platform. Each cycle one train terminates at Watford Junction, Bushey, Harrow and Wealdstone, Wembley Central and Queens Park. Then the trains reverse using whatever crossovers are available and load at the adjacent northbound platform before returning north. Scrape up 2024 stock trains to reinforce the Bakerloo (maybe extend back to Watford Junction temporarily) and run bus transfers to nearby other underground or National Rail lines.

Is the WCML south of Watford set up for any form of bi-di signalling?

Why on earth would you ever run five separate stations as interchange points? You'd need more staff, more intricate timetabling (more likely to fall over) you'd cause more confusion for passengers, with people more likely to end up at the wrong station.

Remember you cannot close only as far as Queen's Park because engineering trains will need to enter and leave the blockade, and you need the lines clear for that. Secondly, Queen's doesn't have capacity.

There are exactly two options.

Option 1 is to close the whole lot, turn everything around at the next station up the line with capacity able to absorb that number of transfers, and divert as many people as is feasible onto the Chiltern line. That station is Milton Keynes Central.

Option 2 is to close half the station. You run 40% of the services; 1tph Avanti to Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham, and about 3tph LNWR to various places. You run Overground as a shuttle between Queen's Park/Willesden Junction and Watford Junction. You have a year, maybe more of half the station closed at a time, and hope that a couple of week long blockades lets you deal with anything that requires a total closure.


Neither of these options are great for passengers.

The former is a shorter period (still over six months long) with a constant shuttle of buses back and forth between a Bedford and Milton Keynes, and you'd need at least two years to plan the whole thing to make sure crew and staff are available. The latter is over a year of reduced services and overcrowding but at least some semblance of normality, with Euston staying open.

On balance, I think I'd prefer the former.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could you actually remove the 3tph Avanti Birmingham entirely, if an enhanced Chiltern service was to operate with longer trains calling only at Banbury and Bicester North, say? That's three down.

To discourage crowding out of any LNR services, remove the dedicated fares and turn everything LNR at Northampton.

 

[JonathanH]

Why are we speculating that Euston would be completely shut for a rebuild when it isn't really a practical option?

Substantial rebuilds of the other terminals have happened over the last twenty or thirty years with just part of the station being closed at any one time. Indeed, the throat of Euston was rebuilt during the 2000s.

Even if it were flatten and start again, that could be done in stages, as could removal of the deck above the station.

There are occasional closures of Euston already for engineering work with trains turned at Milton Keynes and passengers essentially encouraged not to travel, rightly or wrongly. There have been other, more numerous, occasions when half the station has been closed as well. Do passengers really notice those?

 

[Transilien]

Liverpool-Stafford-Banbury-Chiltern line-Marylebone using 805

Rolling stock could be a major issue though as Avanti has only the 805s and 807s, not enough for having many diversionary routes at a proper frequency.

 

[waverley47]

Could you actually remove the 3tph Avanti Birmingham entirely, if an enhanced Chiltern service was to operate with longer trains calling only at Banbury and Bicester North, say? That's three down.

To discourage crowding out of any LNR services, remove the dedicated fares and turn everything LNR at Northampton.

Chiltern doesn't have the capacity really. Again, where do you get the stock, unless you were going to run the new 80X up and down to Marylebone (which would kill capacity elsewhere).

Why are we speculating that Euston would be completely shut for a rebuild when it isn't really a practical option?

Substantial rebuilds of the other terminals have happened over the last twenty or thirty years with just part of the station being closed at any one time. Indeed, the throat of Euston was rebuilt during the 2000s.

Even if it were flatten and start again, that could be done in stages, as could removal of the deck above the station.

Because it's a speculative threat and the premise was indeed that question. As far as I'm aware, nobody has proposed it, but it's an exercise in creative thinking.

On a more practical level, at some point the deck is going to have to come down, as the structure gradually weakens. It's becoming less and less acceptable to be working alongside an active railway, and more and more desirable to do everything in a single blockade, closing the whole lot for a shorter period for cost and engineering reasons.

It's not unlikely we move to a system where we see more periods where London terminals under a whole blockade for a week or two at a time, and in that world, a month or two long blockade of Euston is not inconceivable.

 

[HSTEd]

Why on earth would you ever run five separate stations as interchange points? You'd need more staff, more intricate timetabling (more likely to fall over) you'd cause more confusion for passengers, with people more likely to end up at the wrong station.

Because each individual station could never hope to cope with the number of trains and passengers required to take over the WCML?

Remember you cannot close only as far as Queen's Park because engineering trains will need to enter and leave the blockade, and you need the lines clear for that. Secondly, Queen's doesn't have capacity.

It has the capacity to handle a portion of the service.
As for engineering trains, you won't need many paths per day to haul the rubble out of the demolition area - probably only one round trip if you use a Jumbo Train.
Also, last I checked there were two lines at Queens Park that don't even have platforms, so which will be free almost by definition?

Option 2 is to close half the station. You run 40% of the services; 1tph Avanti to Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham, and about 3tph LNWR to various places. You run Overground as a shuttle between Queen's Park/Willesden Junction and Watford Junction. You have a year, maybe more of half the station closed at a time, and hope that a couple of week long blockades lets you deal with anything that requires a total closure.

IT will be several years, since you won't be able to simultaneously demolish everything
It will be many years of constantly changing floorplans, assuming it is feasible at all.

The building roof at Euston may not be amenable to phased demolition, and even if it is, it will not be a quick process.

Why are we speculating that Euston would be completely shut for a rebuild when it isn't really a practical option?

Substantial rebuilds of the other terminals have happened over the last twenty or thirty years with just part of the station being closed at any one time. Indeed, the throat of Euston was rebuilt during the 2000s.

Such projects have a marked tendency to run extremely late and extremely over budget.

Even if it were flatten and start again, that could be done in stages, as could removal of the deck above the station.

Structures like the one over Euston have a nasty habit of having structural interdependencies that make demolition a painful process at the best of times.
It could easily take a decade before we can even start building a new station.

 

[The Planner]

Liverpool-Stafford-Banbury-Chiltern line-Marylebone using 805s?

North Wales gets no service if you do that. You probably wouldnt have enough 805s either.

 

[A0]

For Avanti the only logical thing is terminate at Watford Junc and Milton Keynes with RRBs.

For LNWR run to Watford, but also run RRBs from MK to Bedford, Leighton Buzzard to Luton, Tring and Berkhamstead to Chesham, Hemrl & Kings Langley to Watford Met.