Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[Caaardiff]

With capacity so short at TFW wouldn't it be better to put it on another Cardiff - Manchester diagram? Surely those holyhead services aren't that busy that they warrant a mk4. Or is it to keep Cardiff Bay happy?

 

[Anonymous10]

With capacity so short at TFW wouldn't it be better to put it on another Cardiff - Manchester diagram? Surely those holyhead services aren't that busy that they warrant a mk4. Or is it to keep Cardiff Bay happy?

As said above its being used to rotate sets so its not a permanent diagram. I have quoted below.

Normally it's just 05:33 from Holyhead down and the 17:14 from Cardiff back up.

Its being used as a way of rotating sets this week where crewing allows so isn't permanent on the extra daytime working.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

With capacity so short at TFW wouldn't it be better to put it on another Cardiff - Manchester diagram? Surely those holyhead services aren't that busy that they warrant a mk4. Or is it to keep Cardiff Bay happy?

It's to keep Anglesey/Ynys Mon happy too, not to mention places like Bangor and Wrexham.
It was specially added to the franchise spec in 2008 by the Welsh Government as a North/South Wales premier service, complete with 1st class and restaurant, and named Y Gerallt Gymro (Gerald of Wales).
Gerald wrote the first Rough Guide to Wales in the 1190s.

 

[markymark2000]

Its being used as a way of rotating sets this week where crewing allows so isn't permanent on the extra daytime working.

What is the chances that this will be running on Friday? I don't want to book tickets and then get shafted with a 150, I'd rather pay the extra £15 and go via Birmingham rather than be sat on a 150 all the way to Cardiff.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Normally it's just 05:33 from Holyhead down and the 17:14 from Cardiff back up.

Its being used as a way of rotating sets this week where crewing allows so isn't permanent on the extra daytime working.

Ah right ok. Thank you for that.

 

[sd0733]

What is the chances that this will be running on Friday? I don't want to book tickets and then get shafted with a 150, I'd rather pay the extra £15 and go via Birmingham rather than be sat on a 150 all the way to Cardiff.

As far as I know its not planned to happen after tomorrow. It may be changed ad-hoc again but I wouldn't bank on it happening on Friday.

 

[Steveswan10]

67025 and whichever rake has 5 carriages past Leominster on 5Z14 Crewe-Canton at 18:23

 

[MP393]

67025 and whichever rake has 5 carriages past Leominster on 5Z14 Crewe-Canton at 18:23

HD03, on route for tyre turning at Canton.

 

[43055]

With capacity so short at TFW wouldn't it be better to put it on another Cardiff - Manchester diagram? Surely those holyhead services aren't that busy that they warrant a mk4. Or is it to keep Cardiff Bay happy?

Whenever I have used the services around North Wales they have been reasonably busy and sometimes standing room only. I would imagine capacity is required all over the Wales network.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

67025 and whichever rake has 5 carriages past Leominster on 5Z14 Crewe-Canton at 18:23

That's 67014 and HD03... 025 is in service on HD06.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Whenever I have used the services around North Wales they have been reasonably busy and sometimes standing room only. I would imagine capacity is required all over the Wales network.

Where it becomes complicated is that the Holyhead-Chester portions of "Gerald" are duplicated by both other TfW services and Avanti's peak services.
So there is too much capacity out of/into Holyhead early and late.
The real capacity need is between Chester and Cardiff through the Marches.
But there seems no other way of positioning that capacity than to start it at crack of dawn at Holyhead, returning late evening (same with Avanti).

 

[ajay1071]

1v96 Holyhead to Cardiff with 67010 just failed at Newport with defective doors.

 

[MCR247]

At least it almost made it home!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Are passengers not permitted to walk through first class to get between the standard class coaches?

I seem to recall signage (or at least reading about) in vestibules on some trains (though possibly not TfW) that standard class passengers are not permitted in first class coaches at all, even first class vestibules are for the exclusive use of first class passengers. At the very least, I understand that some standard class passengers were threatened with (possibly even issued with) some form of penalty for standing in the vestibule of a first class coach on First Great Western intercity services. Even if this doesn't apply with TfW, the fact that other TOCs might punish you for it is a deterrent from walking through first class.

 

[sd0733]

1v96 Holyhead to Cardiff with 67010 just failed at Newport with defective doors.

It was HD02 on 1V42 from Manchdster and it had a power fault in the kitchen car. It was at Newport but ran on to Cardiff.

 

[Anonymous10]

It was HD02 on 1V42 from Manchdster and it had a power fault in the kitchen car. It was at Newport but ran on to Cardiff.

I suppose with one more stop it's easier to lock those doors and keep moving.

 

[sd0733]

I suppose with one more stop it's easier to lock those doors and keep moving.

The doors were locked anyway, there wasn't an issue with the actual doors, just the lack of power caused it to not have Integrity so the driver couldn't take power.

 

[GWVillager]

I seem to recall signage (or at least reading about) in vestibules on some trains (though possibly not TfW) that standard class passengers are not permitted in first class coaches at all, even first class vestibules are for the exclusive use of first class passengers. At the very least, I understand that some standard class passengers were threatened with (possibly even issued with) some form of penalty for standing in the vestibule of a first class coach on First Great Western intercity services. Even if this doesn't apply with TfW, the fact that other TOCs might punish you for it is a deterrent from walking through first class.

I believe Virgin (not Avanti) had this policy most explicitly described, but there is absolutely no way it would be enforced on TfW, and no way passengers would not be permitted from walking through to access Standard. In all likelihood, I reckon that guards will make announcements highlighting the extra coach if it does end up underutilised.

 

[sd0733]

1W91/1V96 06:48 Cardiff to Holyhead and 11:33 return are now booked Mk4 again tomorrow

 

[XAM2175]

I seem to recall signage (or at least reading about) in vestibules on some trains (though possibly not TfW) that standard class passengers are not permitted in first class coaches at all, even first class vestibules are for the exclusive use of first class passengers. At the very least, I understand that some standard class passengers were threatened with (possibly even issued with) some form of penalty for standing in the vestibule of a first class coach on First Great Western intercity services. Even if this doesn't apply with TfW, the fact that other TOCs might punish you for it is a deterrent from walking through first class.

I believe Virgin (not Avanti) had this policy most explicitly described, but there is absolutely no way it would be enforced on TfW, and no way passengers would not be permitted from walking through to access Standard. In all likelihood, I reckon that guards will make announcements highlighting the extra coach if it does end up underutilised.

From the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

15. Using First Class Accommodation
15.1: Some train services include first class accommodation. Where first class accommodation is available, the relevant seats and area(s) of the train will be clearly marked. Unless Train Company staff, or notices on the train give you specific permission, you cannot travel in first class accommodation (including standing in corridors or passageways) with a standard class Ticket. This applies even if there are no vacant seats in standard class.

 

[AdamWW]

From the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

I think an argument that passing through first class in order to access another part of the train is "travelling in" would be difficult to sustain even though you could argue that so long as the train is moving it is literally true, particularly given that it explicitly mentions "standing in" first class.

 

[XAM2175]

I think an argument that passing through first class in order to access another part of the train is "travelling in" would be difficult to sustain even though you could argue that so long as the train is moving it is literally true, particularly given that it explicitly mentions "standing in" first class.

Yes, I agree.

 

[ajay1071]

It was HD02 on 1V42 from Manchdster and it had a power fault in the kitchen car. It was at Newport but ran on to Cardiff.

My mistake, it was indeed 1V42, the guard and driver tried many attempts at opening and closing the doors especially slamming shut the luggage doors on the DVT many times to no avail, all the while making many phone calls for advice., that's why I assumed it must be a door locking fault. They then decided to detain the passengers, they must have rectified the fault as it went empty stock to Cardiff where I caught up with it again.

From the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

 

[twpsaesneg]

I seem to recall signage (or at least reading about) in vestibules on some trains (though possibly not TfW) that standard class passengers are not permitted in first class coaches at all, even first class vestibules are for the exclusive use of first class passengers. At the very least, I understand that some standard class passengers were threatened with (possibly even issued with) some form of penalty for standing in the vestibule of a first class coach on First Great Western intercity services. Even if this doesn't apply with TfW, the fact that other TOCs might punish you for it is a deterrent from walking through first class

I think an argument that passing through first class in order to access another part of the train is "travelling in" would be difficult to sustain even though you could argue that so long as the train is moving it is literally true, particularly given that it explicitly mentions "standing in" first class.

Indeed - the railway byelaw text says:

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths​

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

Key word being "remain" - I suspect a TOC would be on very thin ice to threaten anyone with prosecution who was merely passing through to the next carriage.

 

[sd0733]

Indeed - the railway byelaw text says:

Key word being "remain" - I suspect a TOC would be on very thin ice to threaten anyone with prosecution who was merely passing through to the next carriage.

On the 5 car sets there will be quite a few stops where passengers in the isolated standard coach will have to pass through the 1st class coach to get off due to SDO being used. To prevent them from passing through isn't going to be a consideration and seeing as on board upgrades are advertised 7 days a week allowing anyone to sit in 1st and pay the guard the upgrade, there's a 0% chance any of those that do pass through will end up prosecuted.

 

[Pete_uk]

To ask a dumb question, how come a standard class carriage has got marooned the other side of a first class carriage?

 

[GWVillager]

To ask a dumb question, how come a standard class carriage has got marooned the other side of a first class carriage?

Putting the first class coach at the end would mean it would hang off the edge of the platform in some cases, and as it has the wheelchair space this would obviously cause issues accessing it.

 

[Pete_uk]

Ah gotcha.

Thanks

 

[twpsaesneg]

Double post

 

[33017]

To ask a dumb question, how come a standard class carriage has got marooned the other side of a first class carriage?

It hasn’t, at least not any more. The FC is between the DVT and standard.

Putting the first class coach at the end would mean it would hang off the edge of the platform in some cases, and as it has the wheelchair space this would obviously cause issues accessing it.

That was only the case when there was no standard wheelchair accommodation. There is now (and had been since late last year), so the FC is now at the DVT end and not sandwiched by standard.