That ones been dumped outside the wheel lathe in Crewe for around a year, and a fair while before that too in a set before the set became a 4 car. It had quite a few parts used to get other sets out so it probably needs some work/putting back together at Landore before being the same state as the others.
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Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW
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Wheel flats on HD06. HD02 is currently on the lathe so guess that's a set missing again whilst that's done.
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Thanks for the update. Looks like sets 1, 4 and 7 are out with another to possibly take over 1W11 from Crewe.
Have seen someone say it’s HD05 on wards. So looks like 4 sets out again despite the wheel flats.
Yes 67020+HD05 brought off Crewe for W11 so back to 4. Much quicker recovery than has been the norm!
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
Just a heads up, tomorrow’s daily Holyhead Cardiff diagram is allocated to 197109 vice 67+MK4 set.
17:14 off Cardiff was cancelled on Friday with no crew so the Mk4 is effectively Still in Canton, it should swap into the diagram for 1W57, 10:52 to Manchester
anthony263
Established Member
Has 67015 tonight on the delayed 1900 service from Cardiff to Swansea. 4 carriage train very full 5 carriage rakes needed ASAP but even then I can see tfw needing 6 carriage trains in the future
Cambrian359
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I’ve said a few times , once the new stock roll out is complete TFW will quickly find themselves in a victim of their own success situation. 3/4/5 carriage services will end up needing to be 4/5/6 fairly quickly.
67015 was also full and standing leaving Cardiff at 11:40 on 1W56 yesterday.
5 will definitely make a big difference to begin though. TFW do have some extra MK4’s about, not sure if they’d be serviceable enough to ever extend them to 6 coaches if need be though.
There's the wrong coaches to extend any sets as there's a spare TOE, SV and DVT I believe so only the SV could be used to extend a set and that wouldn't gain much!
Sundays on the Marches are horrendous at the moment. If everything is 5 car then frequency needs to be much higher to assist but it is likely that will attract more passengers so back to square one!
Envoy
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Surely, attracting more passengers is the aim of any transport business? These Mk4 coaches have mainly come from the ECML. Why were more not secured rather than sent for scrap? Why the delay in getting the 5th coach?
Yes it is hence the extra capacity. Sundays are always an issue as the passenger loading is far more concentrated on a few hours rather than across the day like the rest of the days. I'm sure once the full new fleet is running things will improve.
At the time most went for scrap they were only expected to run to Holyhead, only the GC fleet coming up for grabs enabled the fleet as it is now. Speaking to people who went to Worksop to pick the additional coaches from the stored ones there, they got anything that was salvageable and not corroded beyond realistic repair for the active fleet. Everything that was left they considered too far gone.
5 car, I don't know what's going on there. Clearly things are moving along with the movement of coaches to Crewe but what the estimates are I'm unsure.
IslandLine101
Member
What are the crew training requirements for 5-car running - anything significant?
There's no formal training, just a bit of new paperwork.
The stop positions are already 5+2 so stops will be in the same place, there's just a few minor changes to where SDO is done from and that's it really.
Jamesrob637
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This. But booked 2-car on TfW is woeful, as I witnessed a couple of Tuesdays ago at 17:30 at Piccadilly. Everything from Manchester should be booked minimum 4.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It will be once all the 197s are delivered (possibly except very quiet times). We're in a very messy interim period at present.
Steveswan10
Member
You have a great point, im not sure on other towns and citys but Hereford, Abergavenny, Leomonster and Ludlow and the surronding areas (villages ect) are growing a alrming rate......even 6 would more then likely in the not too distant future not be enough
Which has been discussed to death on this forum. TFW simply cannot provide more capacity at the moment because they don't have it. In the future most services will be minimum 5 car.
That's where higher frequency would come in handy. Although i'm a firm believer of providing more capacity on current services, as generally most people want to travel at the same time, there comes a point where an increase in service will spread out the demand through the day. On those particular stations you mention there's the suggested Cardiff - Liverpool route that will boost frequency and capacity. That doesn't necessarily help capacity out of Manchester though.
Steveswan10
Member
As a anmendment, there is only so many trains that can run and there will always be a maximum length a train can be.....and demand will always grow and grow and the once the railways are at full capacity (in terms of length and the amount of trains that can be run).....then there will nothing left the railways or any public transport can do....it will be an impossible problem with no solution
Jamesrob637
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Looking forward to rail travel from Manchester in 2024 with all TfW booked 4 or more and all Avanti Pendolini redone.
Currently most TFW services can cope as a 3 car. At peak times you may see people standing, but not at the way a 2 car means you're either left behind or in someone's armpit. When TFW win travellers back with a more consistent service with enough capacity then 4 or 5 car will probably be more required. Don't forget that Mk4's now are only 2.5 carriages of standard and 1 carriage of First, so unless First is declassified, a Mk4 is not a 4 carriage train.
A 4 car Mk4 has 182 Standard and 40 First seats (222). A 5 car Mk will have 258 Standard and 40 First (298)
By comparison a 2 car 197 has 118, 3 car 197 186 and 3 car with First (Business) 158. So a 5 car 197 with First will by comparison have 276 seats.
A 4 car Mk4 has 182 Standard and 40 First seats (222). A 5 car Mk will have 258 Standard and 40 First (298)
By comparison a 2 car 197 has 118, 3 car 197 186 and 3 car with First (Business) 158. So a 5 car 197 with First will by comparison have 276 seats.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That problem arises in the South East, where going longer than 10/12 car is hopelessly uneconomic and you're already running such high frequencies that you can't do more that way even by investing in signalling. But TfW is a VERY long way away from there - so there are always options, e.g. extending trains and platforms, use of SDO, increasing frequencies etc. It's just whether anyone is willing to fund it.
If you do get to that point you redesign your interiors to allow for standees, i.e. you move to a more Tube like layout with mainly side facing seating and a lot of standing provision, but TfW is a long way from needing that.
And demand won't always "grow and grow" in every case.
Envoy
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In the 1970’s and 80’s they had 6 coach trains on The Marches but these did not go beyond Crewe.
Western 52
Member
The Mk1 coaches were a lot shorter than 197 vehicles though. Maybe 6 of them similar in length to 5 197 cars?
Topological
Member
Probably also worth noting there were only 6 trains per day when they were 6 coaches. Since there are now 17 trains per day between Crewe and Cardiff it only needs 2 of the trains to have 3 carriages and the capacity is the same (notwithstanding the fact that the modern train carriage is longer)
Had a few Mk4 sets recently, including on 1W13, but they still feel strangely specified with only 2 1/2 standard class carriages in something so long. The 3 car 197 this morning felt like it was coping with the numbers better.
Had a few Mk4 sets recently, including on 1W13, but they still feel strangely specified with only 2 1/2 standard class carriages in something so long. The 3 car 197 this morning felt like it was coping with the numbers better.
GWVillager
Member
It’s worth noting that each Mk4 coach has a lot more seats than a 197 coach. A 3 car 197 has 188 seats, whereas a Mk4 set has 184 - plus the 40 first class seats.
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Anonymous10
Established Member
So for an extra coach you gain 45 seats.
The additional coach when it finally goes in has an additional 76 seats, that'll increase standard seats by almost 40%.
Capacity on the Mk4s is lower than it once was at the moment after the TO was swapped for the TOD.
You're also getting extra toilets, disabled areas and luggage space not just seats.