Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[BillStampy]

Also from the past two weeks in this forum it seems there's also been failures which the Twitter team wouldn't haven't published updated formation changes for. So wherever in the day they have failed have left the remaining services short formed without First.
17th April - HD06 67013 failed before departure
17th April - HD07 67025 failed at Yorton
18th April - HD06 67013 failed near Crewe
21st April - HD06 failed on Depot
26th April - HD06 67013 failed with brake problem

Seems the new bad combination is 013 with HD06, just like 008 was with 02.. hopefully it's fixed up a bit for the Crewe start tomorrow (I believe there was a mentioned loco swap to 008 on that set earlier)

 

[Topological]

Whether they are failing, having exams or Depots can't accommodate them it's still not great from a passenger experience point of view. Ultimately damaging reputation.
These are the TFW's Twitter posts about No First Class available in the past two weeks:
15th April - 1 service
18th April - 4 services
20th April - 4 services
22nd April - 4 services
23rd April - 3 services
24th April - 1 services
27th April - 10 services (partly due to failed freight 26th April)
That's 27 services in two weeks

Also from the past two weeks in this forum it seems there's also been failures which the Twitter team wouldn't haven't published updated formation changes for. So wherever in the day they have failed have left the remaining services short formed without First.
17th April - HD06 67013 failed before departure
17th April - HD07 67025 failed at Yorton
18th April - HD06 67013 failed near Crewe
21st April - HD06 failed on Depot
26th April - HD06 67013 failed with brake problem


Definitely not, I've not heard great things about the 197 reliability, but there's enough in the fleet to mitigate the effect.
The difference with the Mk4's is people are people for a superior product, and not getting it. In every day life, would you be happy when you don't get the product that you were paying for?
I've travelled on Mk4's many times, including in First. It's a great product, but for it to succeed it has to be consistent and reliable.

Quite, this is the danger of micro fleets. If the 197s drop in availability then maybe you get 2 car when it needs to be 3 (remembering we are supposed to have 2+3 on most services between Manchester and Swansea).

I also find it strange to think that the Mk4 is not diverting peoples time from focusing on getting the 197s into a settled plan. Surely the diagrammers etc would find life easier without the Mk4s to pay attention to.

The other thing as a layperson that baffles me is how often these Mk4 need to come out for exams. Then how often the exams seem to coincide. A reliable product would have a percentage out for exams all the time, with the schedules planned. Instead, it seems that we end up with sets stopped for exams and then suddenly more available than actually needed (I am sure I read here there was a day with a spare Mk4).

 

[Lurcheroo]

The other thing as a layperson that baffles me is how often these Mk4 need to come out for exams. Then how often the exams seem to coincide. A reliable product would have a percentage out for exams all the time, with the schedules planned. Instead, it seems that we end up with sets stopped for exams and then suddenly more available than actually needed (I am sure I read here there was a day with a spare Mk4).

I think SD wrote further up that some things had been done to spread out the exams, but the 5 coach programme delayed some things and they’re not quite where it would be liked. Once they’re all back on a normal exam pattern then I would think some exams would be pulled early again to even out the distribution.

There has been at least one day with a spare at Canton and Crewe.

 

[sd0733]

I think SD wrote further up that some things had been done to spread out the exams, but the 5 coach programme delayed some things and they’re not quite where it would be liked. Once they’re all back on a normal exam pattern then I would think some exams would be pulled early again to even out the distribution.

There has been at least one day with a spare at Canton and Crewe.

Yes the Bs and 5 car has really messed it all up, especially with HD02 not back and 05 dumped in Holyhead. Never going to work relying on 100% availability of the rest.

Some are still being pulled early to balance days out. HD07 wasn't right up to its max but was pulled today over a Saturday and Sunday partly to spread it out but also as there's more 197s spare on a Saturday.

There's been spares at Crewe or Canton but I don't remember ever seeing a day with spares at both to be honest.

 

[Topological]

Yes the Bs and 5 car has really messed it all up, especially with HD02 not back and 05 dumped in Holyhead. Never going to work relying on 100% availability of the rest.

Some are still being pulled early to balance days out. HD07 wasn't right up to its max but was pulled today over a Saturday and Sunday partly to spread it out but also as there's more 197s spare on a Saturday.

There's been spares at Crewe or Canton but I don't remember ever seeing a day with spares at both to be honest.

I think SD wrote further up that some things had been done to spread out the exams, but the 5 coach programme delayed some things and they’re not quite where it would be liked. Once they’re all back on a normal exam pattern then I would think some exams would be pulled early again to even out the distribution.

There has been at least one day with a spare at Canton and Crewe.

Thank you both. Hopefully, the patterns will balance out so that the availability comes closer to the planned service.

I guess when other units are regularly having their exams no one really notices as 197001 is the same as 197099 etc. Even if 197199 turned up no one would really notice since it is still a 197.

* Example numbering to indicate many of a class.

 

[Newp410]

What may help once they get all the sets up to 5 coaches is serious consideration of bringing HD08 (or HD99 if you like) up to standard for an 8th set. Its known that a 6th daily diagram is thought possible if that can be done, and with 67016 shortly to be added to the pool with up to 2 others to follow, things may settle down on the loco front too.

 

[BillStampy]

What may help once they get all the sets up to 5 coaches is serious consideration of bringing HD08 (or HD99 if you like) up to standard for an 8th set. Its known that a 6th daily diagram is thought possible if that can be done, and with 67016 shortly to be added to the pool with up to 2 others to follow, things may settle down on the loco front too.

Focus should move to the set once the 5 car sets are all complete. Logically to get in service to increase reliability

 

[sd0733]

Thank you both. Hopefully, the patterns will balance out so that the availability comes closer to the planned service.

I guess when other units are regularly having their exams no one really notices as 197001 is the same as 197099 etc. Even if 197199 turned up no one would really notice since it is still a 197.

* Example numbering to indicate many of a class.

They have been in the past and the running ones now are.

Just having one of the missing sets would make a difference.

Yes that's the big difference, all units will have them and nobody really notices. If a different one turns up or even a 2 car v 3 car, a few may complain about no seat etc but that's about it. Same when a 158 etc deputise it still isn't that noticeable to the majority and is the major achilles heel of small fleets.

Focus should move to the set once the 5 car sets are all complete. Logically to get in service to increase reliability

AFAIK unless it's changed that's the plan before the next round of big exams/refubs come up.

Believe the intention (as long as its still repairable!) Is for HD08 to have a full refurb with the new lighting, electrics, repaint and interior works before going into service then the other 7 follow, only then would diagrams look at going to 6. Could have changed again but that was the last I heard.

Time will tell with it though as as far as I know its had no attention at all yet in Bristol and is just sitting there.

Hopefully HD06 is okay for tomorrow too.

Doesn't appear it will be now. Not sure what the actual issue with it is but appears to be set related so not something a loco swap sorted.

 

[BillStampy]

Doesn't appear it will be now. Not sure what the actual issue with it is but appears to be set related so not something a loco swap sorted.

That's sad, was planning on taking it for a spin, looks like that won't be happening now unless there's a short term swap. Unlikely to say the least.

 

[sd0733]

That's sad, was planning on taking it for a spin, looks like that won't be happening now unless there's a short term swap. Unlikely to say the least.

Shows now as 197118 so seems definite won't be out.

 

[BillStampy]

Shows now as 197118 so seems definite won't be out.

That's how the MK4s work, get lucky sometimes, not so lucky others, not surprising after today's reliability.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Shows now as 197118 so seems definite won't be out.

With a standard class ticket, I think I’d prefer that to a MK4 while Standard Plus isn’t charged for. 2+1 reclining seats and a squashy head cushion at no extra cost, plus I love those boujee table lamps. It’s a lovely area to travel in.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Unsure as to which diagram they're running tomorrow but if it has swapped then hopefully something other than a 2 car goes, there's now complaints when one of the 4 car rakes comes rather than a 5 going to Manchester as its so busy.

HD06 is planned for a shakedown run tomorrow and re-enter service Tuesday.

That gives 5 available sets Monday then 6 on Tuesday-Thursday until HD05 stops for an exam on Friday but all being well the 4 diagrams should be covered all week. There's even a spare rake at both Canton and Crewe most of the week too.

Going way back to post 4,311. I don’t know if they did actually end up being a spare at each on any of those days for certain but I did remember holding out a little hope the 5th diagram might run haha.

Some are still being pulled early to balance days out. HD07 wasn't right up to its max but was pulled today over a Saturday and Sunday partly to spread it out but also as there's more 197s spare on a Saturday.

Interesting to see that even more thought than I realised goes into it.

Believe the intention (as long as its still repairable!) Is for HD08 to have a full refurb with the new lighting, electrics, repaint and interior works before going into service then the other 7 follow, only then would diagrams look at going to 6. Could have changed again but that was the last I heard.

So the current 7 sets are planned to get a full refurbishment after HD08 (if it’s salvaged) ?

 

[Newp410]

With a standard class ticket, I think I’d prefer that to a MK4 while Standard Plus isn’t charged for. 2+1 reclining seats and a squashy head cushion at no extra cost, plus I love those boujee table lamps. It’s a lovely area to travel in.

Had my first trip in one earlier today, (120) managed to get one of the single seats behind the cab. Very impressed with the difference in comfort, although sadly two of the head cushions had already disappeared from one of the tables of 4. They really need to rethink those window stripes though.

67012 kept time really well on 1V62 and certainly was well used out of Manchester. Although no chef on board the buffet was open until Pontypool, which was also welcome.

 

[sd0733]

Going way back to post 4,311. I don’t know if they did actually end up being a spare at each on any of those days for certain but I did remember holding out a little hope the 5th diagram might run haha.

Ah yes forgot there was a brief few days once HD06 came back there were 6 sets.

Interesting to see that even more thought than I realised goes in itit.

Yes! That's partly why the weekends sometimes get sacrificed and why one Saturday diagram is temporarily a 197 as there's more to cover. It's not the wing and a prayer that many imply!

So the current 7 sets are planned to get a full refurbishment after HD08 (if it’s salvaged) ?

That was certainly what was being planned. There's a few obsolete parts such as static converters which are being replaced/upgraded too.

67012 kept time really well on 1V62 and certainly was well used out of Manchester. Although no chef on board the buffet was open until Pontypool, which was also welwelcome

Its certainly helped having the enhanced speeds between Crewe and Shrewsbury with timekeeping, at Least there's a cushion now.

Possibly with the late change of plan to run it nobody was assigned Chef wise in the end, although weekend coverage of chefs is still pretty patchy.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So if HD08 is coming back, will the originally promised and short-lived 3tpd MK4 to Holyhead eventually return then?

 

[sd0733]

So if HD08 is coming back, will the originally promised and short-lived 3tpd MK4 to Holyhead eventually return then?

Potentially, there's plans for a 6th diagram if it's possible to get it up and running but unsure as to what the latest plans are.

If (and at this point it's a big if!) Without a timetable change it could only cover the 07:17 off Cardiff and return as the 11:25 now picks up all the request stops on Anglesey.

 

[Lurcheroo]

So if HD08 is coming back, will the originally promised and short-lived 3tpd MK4 to Holyhead eventually return then?

Potentially, there's plans for a 6th diagram if it's possible to get it up and running but unsure as to what the latest plans are.

If (and at this point it's a big if!) Without a timetable change it could only cover the 07:17 off Cardiff and return as the 11:25 now picks up all the request stops on Anglesey.

I’m not sure what the ‘general feel’ is about it but personally, I don’t think they should be working the holyheads again.
I pretty much only ever use them Shrewsbury - Cardiff and back so there’s no bias here (unless they want to get the 67’s fitted with ERTMS ).
It seemed well known at the time that 1st class was not well used and they ran at a fair loss, where’s the Manchester's were making a profit. How true that really is, I don’t know.
But there are also issues with the 67’s stopping at the request stops on the island it seems.
So if putting them on holyheads means certain services dropping those stops then I don’t see the point as there is already Avanti who operate a fast service.

I think it would be better if something could be done with a 6th diagram to get more of the current services running through to Swansea.

 

[BillStampy]

Seems HD03 isn't making it out of Canton today, a double 153 taking on a MK4 diagram!! More questionable allocation choices whilst a standard plus 197 is out of Cheltenham.. really should've used 197116 for it.

 

[Jez]

Seems HD03 isn't making it out of Canton today, a double 153 taking on a MK4 diagram!! More questionable allocation choices whilst a standard plus 197 is out of Cheltenham.. really should've used 197116 for it.

Which means the first 3 Swansea to Manchester this morning are pairs of 153s!

 

[TomH1994]

What’s the main issues with the MK4’s? Is it compatibility with the 68? As I don’t think they were that bad under LNER or is it due age/maintenance issues?

 

[sd0733]

I’m not sure what the ‘general feel’ is about it but personally, I don’t think they should be working the holyheads again.
I pretty much only ever use them Shrewsbury - Cardiff and back so there’s no bias here (unless they want to get the 67’s fitted with ERTMS ).
It seemed well known at the time that 1st class was not well used and they ran at a fair loss, where’s the Manchester's were making a profit. How true that really is, I don’t know.
But there are also issues with the 67’s stopping at the request stops on the island it seems.
So if putting them on holyheads means certain services dropping those stops then I don’t see the point as there is already Avanti who operate a fast service.

I think it would be better if something could be done with a 6th diagram to get more of the current services running through to Swansea.

There's never been proving done at the requests on the island, same as requests between Crewe and Shrewsbury and some of the smaller stations between Cardiff and Swansea so they aren't permitted to call..

Personally I'd agree, they're much better for the Manchester route and getting a reliable Swansea to Manchester should be the aim one way or another.

Seems HD03 isn't making it out of Canton today, a double 153 taking on a MK4 diagram!! More questionable allocation choices whilst a standard plus 197 is out of Cheltenham.. really should've used 197116 for it.

Looks to require a loco exam tonight, if nobody available overnight then it was a choice between being out today or tomorrow. At least on a Sunday whilst not ideal it finishes back at Canton so doesn't mess up the diagram cycle other than loss of today. Least bad option.

Pending completion of checks on HD06 and 07 at Crewe, HD01,03,06 and 07 should be out tomorrow.

What’s the main issues with the MK4’s? Is it compatibility with the 67? As I don’t think they were that bad under LNER or is it due age/maintenance issues?

They're getting older but most of the issues now have been time on depot or loco availability.

Loco availability is getting much better with more to come and a couple of long term absentees expected back and the 5 car project finishing should increase availability.
There's never actually been a time where the whole fleet has been available as at least one set has always been on one project or another (reforming, SDO, 5 car) since the Manchesters started so just having a full fleet will be a bonus.

 

[Lurcheroo]

There's never been proving done at the requests on the island, same as requests between Crewe and Shrewsbury and some of the smaller stations between Cardiff and Swansea so they aren't permitted to call..

Personally I'd agree, they're much better for the Manchester route and getting a reliable Swansea to Manchester should be the aim one way or another

Ahh ok that’s interesting ! I suppose request stop working really isn’t what anyone would want them doing!

I suppose we will just have to see what gets decided upon. I’d be surprised if they’d make them any more frequent than every other leaving Manchester.

 

[MP393]

HD07 has made it out of Crewe with 67022. HD06 however did not and the diagram starting with 06:27 ex Manchester is a 197.

67022+HD07
04:54 Crewe Cardiff
08:49 Cardiff Manchester
12:30 Manchester Cardiff
16:49 Cardiff Manchester

67012 HD03
04:35 Cardiff Manchester
08:30 Manchester Cardiff
17:14 Cardiff Holyhead

67014 HD01
05:30 Holyhead Cardiff
10:52 Cardiff Manchester
14:30 Manchester Cardiff
18:55 Cardiff Manchester

 

[sd0733]

HD07 has made it out of Crewe with 67022. HD06 however did not and the diagram starting with 06:27 ex Manchester is a 197

HD06 now expected to swap into 1W11 tomorrow at Crewe. Its back with 67013.

Long term out of use 67020 is planned to head to Holyhead tomorrow to go onto HD05 and HD04 is planned out on its 5+2 test run on Wednesday so should be available from Thursday. Likely means it enters service before previous one HD02.

 

[NigelRail]

Does this mean 67020 is will be back in revenue operation soon?

 

[sd0733]

Does this mean 67020 is will be back in revenue operation soon?

Once it's on a set it shouldn't be too far away. If it's like a lot of others coming back it would likely power sets on depot for a while until its allowed out in service.

 

[BillStampy]

Realtime Trains | 0Z67 1605 Crewe T.M.D. (E) to Cardiff Canton Sidings | 29/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 0Z67 1605 departure from Crewe T.M.D. (E) to Cardiff Canton Sidings on 29/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

67 moving South, any idea which one? Supposing it's going to join onto HD02 to fix the diagrams for tomorrow morning, it's the only set on Canton I believe?

 

[sd0733]

Realtime Trains | 0Z67 1605 Crewe T.M.D. (E) to Cardiff Canton Sidings | 29/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 0Z67 1605 departure from Crewe T.M.D. (E) to Cardiff Canton Sidings on 29/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

67 moving South, any idea which one? Supposing it's going to join onto HD02 to fix the diagrams for tomorrow morning, it's the only set on Canton I believe?

67025 should be on that.

AFAIK it's still planned to swap in HD06 on 1W11 tomorrow at Crewe but may have changed.

 

[MP393]

67025 should be on that.

AFAIK it's still planned to swap in HD06 on 1W11 tomorrow at Crewe but may have changed.

Another false start for HD06. Just the 3 out again today

67012 HD03
05:30 Holyhead Cardiff
10:52 Cardiff Manchester
14:30 Manchester Cardiff
18:55 Cardiff Manchester

67014 HD01
06:27 Manchester Cardiff
12:49 Cardiff Manchester
16:30 Manchester Swansea

67022+HD07
04:54 Crewe Cardiff
08:49 Cardiff Manchester
12:30 Manchester Cardiff
16:49 Cardiff Manchester