Examples of Surprisingly Short Turnround Times

[GordonT]

I'll open the bidding with 1S63 the 1230 ex London Euston to Glasgow Central with a scheduled arrival time of 1711. The set then makes 1M18 the 1730 ex Glasgow Central to London Euston. This evening 1S63 is not expected to arrive in GLC until 1748 having been delayed by the "wires down" at Hanslope thus guaranteeing that 1M18 is a late start thereby disconcerting anyone boarding who had particularly been hoping for a 2227 arrival at EUS for onward travel arrangements.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The 2058 TfW service from Llandudno Junction to Llandudno arrives 2108, before reversing and returning in service just three minutes later as the 2111 from Llandudno back to Llandudno Junction.

This short turnaround means that it's not an "official connection" at Llandudno (Minimum time is 5 minutes).

Undoubtedly there will be other examples at Llandudno.

 

[Basil Jet]

I haven't checked recently, but a few years ago public timetables showed the Borderlands leaving Wrexham Central a minute before it arrived. Beat that!

 

[Bayum]

I always think the Reading terminators at Gatwick are surprisingly short on time on paper.

 

[Tramfan]

I haven't checked recently, but a few years ago public timetables showed the Borderlands leaving Wrexham Central a minute before it arrived. Beat that!

The 19:47 arrival and 19:46 departure from Wrexham Central is still like that (WTT shows a 3 min turnaround).

 

[Watershed]

The 19:47 arrival and 19:46 departure from Wrexham Central is still like that (WTT shows a 3 min turnaround).

The Wrexham branch only works with 3 minute turnarounds and no engineering allowance. Obviously that's no way to run a railway!

 

[Horizon22]

I'll open the bidding with 1S63 the 1230 ex London Euston to Glasgow Central with a scheduled arrival time of 1711. The set then makes 1M18 the 1730 ex Glasgow Central to London Euston. This evening 1S63 is not expected to arrive in GLC until 1748 having been delayed by the "wires down" at Hanslope thus guaranteeing that 1M18 is a late start thereby disconcerting anyone boarding who had particularly been hoping for a 2227 arrival at EUS for onward travel arrangements.

I personally wouldn't say that 19 minutes is excessively short for even an inter-city service at peak hours - I imagine platform capacity/availability may be an issue. Yes, you'd ideally want 20+ minutes, but I've seen much worse. Obviously its late due to an external incident and something with even a 30-40 minute turnaround would be impacted.

 

[subk2010]

Are there specified rules for turnround times?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I always think the Reading terminators at Gatwick are surprisingly short on time on paper.

They are, but its a compliant turnaround as the minimum turnaround 769's can have is 4 minutes which is what they have at Gatwick Monday to Saturday. And as they are running 165/166's still they can actually have a 3 minute turnaround and be compliant.

Are there specified rules for turnround times?

There are. They can be found in section 5.3 of the Timetable Planning Rules.

 

[dk1]

I'll open the bidding with 1S63 the 1230 ex London Euston to Glasgow Central with a scheduled arrival time of 1711. The set then makes 1M18 the 1730 ex Glasgow Central to London Euston. This evening 1S63 is not expected to arrive in GLC until 1748 having been delayed by the "wires down" at Hanslope thus guaranteeing that 1M18 is a late start thereby disconcerting anyone boarding who had particularly been hoping for a 2227 arrival at EUS for onward travel arrangements.

It most certainly isn’t conducive to the 17:30 being a reliable service after a 401 mile inbound journey.

 

[Bald Rick]

In the, ahem, “ambitious” WMT timetable of 2019, London to Liverpool via Birmingham (with split), well over 4 hours, 200 miles, and a 7 minute turnaround at destination…

 

[Tramfan]

The 2058 TfW service from Llandudno Junction to Llandudno arrives 2108, before reversing and returning in service just three minutes later as the 2111 from Llandudno back to Llandudno Junction.

This short turnaround means that it's not an "official connection" at Llandudno (Minimum time is 5 minutes).

Undoubtedly there will be other examples at Llandudno.

A few years back the trains into Llandudno from Manchester would run a Llandudno Junction return trip before heading back out to Manchester with similarly short turnarounds, and you'd often find a late running arrival would simply miss out the Llandudno Junction trip to be able to start on time to Manchester again.

 

[30907]

I'll open the bidding with 1S63 the 1230 ex London Euston to Glasgow Central with a scheduled arrival time of 1711. The set then makes 1M18 the 1730 ex Glasgow Central to London Euston. This evening 1S63 is not expected to arrive in GLC until 1748 having been delayed by the "wires down" at Hanslope thus guaranteeing that 1M18 is a late start thereby disconcerting anyone boarding who had particularly been hoping for a 2227 arrival at EUS for onward travel arrangements.

Arrival was 1659 pre-Covid - though the via Birmingham that followed was 1715 in 1740 out.

 

[Statto]

Merseyrail at Chester, trains are timed for a 4 minute turn around, with 86 minute journey time around the loop & back, that trains are often delayed, then become delayed even further on the next diagram out of Chester.

 

[miklcct]

Merseyrail at Chester, trains are timed for a 4 minute turn around, with 96 minute journey time around the loop & back, that trains are often delayed, then become delayed even further on the next diagram out of Chester.

Thameslink Sutton loop trains have a 2-minute turnaround at Sutton. The minimum connection time is 1 minute between Thameslink trains to enable such connections.

What's the reason an intercity train needs more turnaround time then a metro / suburban train?

 

[scotrail170407]

There’s a 22:15 arrival into Manchester Piccadilly from Carmarthen that forms a 22:14 to Chester using the same unit

 

[BeepBopSkdoo]

At Penzance, there’s a 1540 arrival from Plymouth which a mere 10 mins later forms the 1550 back to Gloucester, cutting it a bit fine for an HST set!

 

[Sheridan]

The 2058 TfW service from Llandudno Junction to Llandudno arrives 2108, before reversing and returning in service just three minutes later as the 2111 from Llandudno back to Llandudno Junction.

This short turnaround means that it's not an "official connection" at Llandudno (Minimum time is 5 minutes).

Undoubtedly there will be other examples at Llandudno.

Unless I’m being daft, what would you need to connect with at Llandudno?

 

[Alex365Dash]

There’s a 22:15 arrival into Manchester Piccadilly from Carmarthen that forms a 22:14 to Chester using the same unit

Doesn’t that one continue in the same direction via Oxford Road, hence not actually turning around?

The Southern service from London Victoria to Portsmouth Harbour arrives at xx:05, turning around and then departing the platform at xx:11, six minutes after arriving. Granted it’s a 4 car 377, so it’s not long to walk end-to-end, but at the first sign of any disruption, this service usually terminates and restarts at Fratton.

 

[HST43257]

Quite a long distance one

In GBTT, The 0422 Chester to Milford Haven (arr 1103) makes an 1105 Milford Haven to Manchester service

There are a couple of other examples with Manchester - Milford Haven - Carmarthen and vice versa in the early morning and late evening

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Unless I’m being daft, what would you need to connect with at Llandudno?

Probably wouldn't, unless Deganwy station is ever skip-stopped on the way out of Llandudno.

 

[TEW]

Doesn’t that one continue in the same direction via Oxford Road, hence not actually turning around?

The Southern service from London Victoria to Portsmouth Harbour arrives at xx:05, turning around and then departing the platform at xx:11, six minutes after arriving. Granted it’s a 4 car 377, so it’s not long to walk end-to-end, but at the first sign of any disruption, this service usually terminates and restarts at Fratton.

The Southern London Victoria services have now generally been cut back to Portsmouth and Southsea to improve reliability.

 

[The Planner]

What's the reason an intercity train needs more turnaround time then a metro / suburban train?

Stock type (especially positioning of doors) and the type of passengers etc. Long distance train passengers are more likely to have larger luggage so it takes longer to empty and fill.

 

[L401CJF]

Merseyrail at Chester, trains are timed for a 4 minute turn around, with 86 minute journey time around the loop & back, that trains are often delayed, then become delayed even further on the next diagram out of Chester.

It is poor- due to depart Chester but is late and doesnt arrive until a few mins after it should have left, by the time the crew have changed ends its near 5mins late, back to consistent delays and potential semifast running again.

The last timetable was brilliant with near 15min turnaround in Chester, all stopping at Capenhurst, all left Chester bang on time. Unfortunately it had to end!

 

[Watershed]

There’s a 22:15 arrival into Manchester Piccadilly from Carmarthen that forms a 22:14 to Chester using the same unit

Yes, there are no rules about minimum turnarounds at Piccadilly. In any case this one doesn't involve a turnaround as it runs into platform 14 and continues in the same direction.

Really I wonder more why it isn't advertised as a direct service, as there are some flows (e.g. Crewe, Wilmslow & Stockport to Oxford Rd, Newton-le-Willows, Earlestown and possibly Warrington) where it's the fastest journey opportunity, especially at that time of night. The fact it's split into two services means there isn't an official connection between the two.

Another example at Piccadilly is the Hadfield service, which has an 80 minute journey time out and back, with 4 reversals on the minimum 3 minute allowance, followed by a 10 minute turnaround. It's even less during the peaks, when additional stops are added at Gorton and Fairfield.

 

[swt_passenger]

At Penzance, there’s a 1540 arrival from Plymouth which a mere 10 mins later forms the 1550 back to Gloucester, cutting it a bit fine for an HST set!

If it’s a shortened HST operating as a regional train it doesn’t really justify a normal long distance turnround does it?

 

[MontyP]

Thameslink Sutton loop trains have a 2-minute turnaround at Sutton. The minimum connection time is 1 minute between Thameslink trains to enable such connections.

What's the reason an intercity train needs more turnaround time then a metro / suburban train?

But it isn't a turnaround at Sutton is it? Just a continuation around the loop. Sutton is shown as the destination but the service is really continuous from Luton all the way back to Luton .

 

[Watershed]

What's the reason an intercity train needs more turnaround time then a metro / suburban train?

Generally, the allowances agreed with the drivers' unions tend to be higher for intercity stock, e.g. whereas Southern drivers are expected to reverse a 12 car unit in 6 minutes, the minimum reversal for a 9 car Pendolino is 15 minutes.

There's also the fact that intercity trains generally travel longer distances and have longer journeys, so they are likely to encounter more ESRs and TSRs, and conflict with more services on their way. As a rule of thumb, having around 10 minutes' turnaround for every hour of journey time should lead to a reliable service. Of course that's not always practicable.

Thameslink Sutton loop trains have a 2-minute turnaround at Sutton. The minimum connection time is 1 minute between Thameslink trains to enable such connections.

Indeed, although they have a number of dwells that are longer than the minimum requirement, which does make up for this somewhat. Still a fairly high risk performance wise, especially with the conflict with ex-London Bridge trains when Blackfriars to the south, and the conflict with Southeastern services at Herne Hill.

 

[swt_passenger]

Indeed, although they have a number of dwells that are longer than the minimum requirement, which does make up for this somewhat. Still a fairly high risk performance wise, especially with the conflict with ex-London Bridge trains when Blackfriars to the south, and the conflict with Southeastern services at Herne Hill.

But what’s the fundamental reason Sutton Loop trains have to change their ID at Sutton. Is it because the 319s couldn’t show changing destinations en route? Or it’s done because it‘s always been like that?

Out and back trains from a number of Southern termini keep their ID and the train and platform PIS sorts out what’s going on for passengers.

 

[Watershed]

But what’s the fundamental reason Sutton Loop trains have to change their ID at Sutton. Is it because the 319s couldn’t show changing destinations en route? Or it’s done because it‘s always been like that?

Out and back trains from a number of Southern termini keep their ID and the train and platform PIS sorts out what’s going on for passengers.

They used to have the same headcode throughout, but they were split some years back.

I think the suggestion was that people were using the 'direct train' rule to make circuitous journeys - but as BoJ isn't allowed when on a route that's only permitted by virtue of being on a direct train, I'm not sure quite how that was supposed to have represented much of a loophole.