Examples of Surprisingly Short Turnround Times

[D6130]

Perhaps not exactly what the OP was meaning, but a lot of Northern services which reverse at Bradford Interchange only have a three minute turnround. With eight arrivals and departures per hour - plus the Grand Central services several times a day - using only four platforms, it only takes a small delay on one train to put the whole service out of kilter.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

The 11:53 from Plymouth to Manchester Piccadilly arrives at 17:11 and has a 16-minute turnaround time before running the 17:27 back to Reading. It's because it waits at Stafford from 16:02 to 16:16? What's the reason for this now?

During the summer timetable on CrossCountry services before covid, the 06:32 from Dundee to Newquay would be due there at 18:39 and would be due out on the 19:00 to Plymouth. A 21-minute turnaround is not sensible I feel when a train has travelled for over 12 hours!

 

[Watershed]

The 11:53 from Plymouth to Manchester Piccadilly arrives at 17:11 and has a 16-minute turnaround time before running the 17:27 back to Reading. It's because it waits at Stafford from 16:02 to 16:16? What's the reason for this now?

It's essentially down to XC running the hourly Reading/Bomo service with double sets whilst also running a few additional Bristol which don't fully interwork.

This has several knock on impacts on the platforming at Piccadilly, and therefore their pre-Covid path is not available anymore. So the choice is either dwell at Stafford for a while, waiting for the following path into Piccadilly, or hold 3 other trains at Stockport/Cheadle Hulme.

During the summer timetable on CrossCountry services before covid, the 06:32 from Dundee to Newquay would be due there at 18:39 and would be due out on the 19:00 to Plymouth. A 21-minute turnaround is not sensible I feel when a train has travelled for over 12 hours!

There's not really much in the way of choice given the constraints of the Newquay branch. It's only heading to Plymouth so if it does leave a little bit late, it's not the end of the world.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The definitions of 'minimum turnround' and 'minimum change ends' are two different things.

Changing ends is literally just that- the time allowed for crew to change cabs prior to departing with the next working (passenger or ECS.) This value is dependent on stock type and unit formation length, plus any special allowances for the location if applicable.

(For example, 2+8 HST reversal was 7 mins.)

Turnround adds a performance robustness component to the above, usually specified based on the distance and/or time of the inward working, and is usually specified on a case-by-case basis.

(For example, an HST arrival at Paddington from Bristol/Cheltenham/Cardiff was 20 mins, from Penzance/Hereford/Swansea was 30 mins. These were considered unduly tight, compared to ECML Kings Cross turnrounds which were in the order of 45-90 mins.)

Turnarounds apply passenger arrival to passenger departure, at some locations it is permitted / necessary to plan a shunt move within the turnround time. Some routes do not specify turnround at all, particularly south of the Thames. Therefore in theory a Portsmouth-Cardiff requires 30 mins at the Welsh end but only 4 mins at the Solent end!

For new services a standard rule of thumb is 10 mins for every hour of inbound travel. It will be interesting to see what HS2 plans at Euston, especially given the reduction in platforms to 10.

It's essentially down to XC running the hourly Reading/Bomo service with double sets whilst also running a few additional Bristol which don't fully interwork.

This has several knock on impacts on the platforming at Piccadilly, and therefore their pre-Covid path is not available anymore. So the choice is either dwell at Stafford for a while, waiting for the following path into Piccadilly, or hold 3 other trains at Stockport/Cheadle Hulme.


There's not really much in the way of choice given the constraints of the Newquay branch. It's only heading to Plymouth so if it does leave a little bit late, it's not the end of the world.

It used to be 85 mins which severely limited the ability of GWR to provide a usable evening service. By mutual agreement it was reduced, presumably based on performance data supporting the reasonable right time running of the inbound, and probably a regulation policy of terminating short if running very late.

 

[172007]

WM terminating trains at Kidderminster are timetabled for an 11 minute turnaround which includes a shunt move including often for rain not having a through gangway so climbing down to change ends. Basically it takes 11 minutes in total so if you arrive 1 min Late your departing 1 minute late. Effectively there is 0 minutes turnaround time.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The definitions of 'minimum turnround' and 'minimum change ends' are two different things.

Changing ends is literally just that- the time allowed for crew to change cabs prior to departing with the next working (passenger or ECS.) This value is dependent on stock type and unit formation length, plus any special allowances for the location if applicable.

(For example, 2+8 HST reversal was 7 mins.)

Turnround adds a performance robustness component to the above, usually specified based on the distance and/or time of the inward working, and is usually specified on a case-by-case basis.

(For example, an HST arrival at Paddington from Bristol/Cheltenham/Cardiff was 20 mins, from Penzance/Hereford/Swansea was 30 mins. These were considered unduly tight, compared to ECML Kings Cross turnrounds which were in the order of 45-90 mins.)

Turnarounds apply passenger arrival to passenger departure, at some locations it is permitted / necessary to plan a shunt move within the turnround time. Some routes do not specify turnround at all, particularly south of the Thames. Therefore in theory a Portsmouth-Cardiff requires 30 mins at the Welsh end but only 4 mins at the Solent end!

For new services a standard rule of thumb is 10 mins for every hour of inbound travel. It will be interesting to see what HS2 plans at Euston, especially given the reduction in platforms to 10.



It used to be 85 mins which severely limited the ability of GWR to provide a usable evening service. By mutual agreement it was reduced, presumably based on performance data supporting the reasonable right time running of the inbound, and probably a regulation policy of terminating short if running very late.

10 minute turnaround is certainly not a rule on Southern Region. Only stations that have it are London Victoria (Central), Brighton and London Bridge (Central) which have 12 minute turnarounds for mainline services only.

 

[AJW12]

Quite a few in Wales I know of particularly at Holyhead and Fishguard. I think the tightest at the former is the 11:44 arrival from Manchester Airport, 135miles/3hrs journey - which then forms an 11:48 to Birmingham. 4 minutes!

 

[Parallel]

The 07:07 Worcester Shrub Hill to Weymouth arrives into Weymouth at 11:00 and goes back out at 11:10 for Gloucester.

If it’s around 10 minutes late arriving, it can’t make it out on time and seems to usually get held back for the SWR service to leave first. It is then supposed to arrive into Gloucester at 14:30, before forming the 14:40 to Westbury.

On the day I checked, it picked up 23 minutes of delay at Maiden Newton and needless to say didn’t recover that time. It then left Gloucester 19 minutes late on its next journey.

 

[Peter0124]

Stock type (especially positioning of doors) and the type of passengers etc. Long distance train passengers are more likely to have larger luggage so it takes longer to empty and fill.

Do the Pendolinos get cleaned in-between turnround times?

Because I'd imagine the cleaning of an 9 or 11 car train vs say a 4 car train would take longer therefore require more time and be a factor.

 

[D6975]

Do the Pendolinos get cleaned in-between turnround times?

Because I'd imagine the cleaning of an 9 or 11 car train vs say a 4 car train would take longer therefore require more time and be a factor.

Not really - the longer the set, the more staff you throw at it. Cleaning will therefore be pretty much dependent on how dirty the set is rather than its length.

 

[Watershed]

Quite a few in Wales I know of particularly at Holyhead and Fishguard. I think the tightest at the former is the 11:44 arrival from Manchester Airport, 135miles/3hrs journey - which then forms an 11:48 to Birmingham. 4 minutes!

The WTT arrival is actually 11:43, so 5 minutes. It does have 5 minutes of engineering allowances as well as reasonably generous dwells at most stations. But yes, that is clearly a suboptimal turnaround. I guess it's either that or turning at Bangor though...

 

[dk1]

I quite like it when we step up services. In the past I’ve worked the 11:30 Norwich-Liverpool St which has been formed by the 11:27 arrival & upon arrival at Liverpool St at 13.20 it went straight back to Norwich as the 13:30. Didn’t give the poor old class 90 much rest.

 

[Dai Corner]

Cardiff Central - Ebbw Vale Town trains have a 3 or 4 min turnaround at Ebbw Vale but 58 or 59 min at Cardiff.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Cardiff Central - Ebbw Vale Town trains have a 3 or 4 min turnaround at Ebbw Vale but 58 or 59 min at Cardiff.

Really don't see the issue with that. The long turnarounds at Cardiff mean they will easily get back to booked time if they are late after a round trip.

 

[Dai Corner]

Really don't see the issue with that. The long turnarounds at Cardiff mean they will easily get back to booked time if they are late after a round trip.

Although longer at Ebbw Vale would allow a punctual return journey even if the outward was delayed, and slightly faster timings (electrification?) would save a unit and a crew.

 

[Basil Jet]

Really don't see the issue with that. The long turnarounds at Cardiff mean they will easily get back to booked time if they are late after a round trip.

Isn't the Ebbw Vale service part of a 14-stage diagram that visits most of the Valleys before getting back to Ebbw Vale about 5 hours later, and so the "long turnarounds at Cardiff" are illusory?

 

[Dai Corner]

Isn't the Ebbw Vale service part of a 14-stage diagram that visits most of the Valleys before getting back to Ebbw Vale about 5 hours later, and so the "long turnarounds at Cardiff" are illusory?

No. Ebbw Vale uses Cl 170 DMUs which aren't cleared for the Valleys.

 

[dmu fan]

The 07:07 Worcester Shrub Hill to Weymouth arrives into Weymouth at 11:00 and goes back out at 11:10 for Gloucester.

If it’s around 10 minutes late arriving, it can’t make it out on time and seems to usually get held back for the SWR service to leave first. It is then supposed to arrive into Gloucester at 14:30, before forming the 14:40 to Westbury.

On the day I checked, it picked up 23 minutes of delay at Maiden Newton and needless to say didn’t recover that time. It then left Gloucester 19 minutes late on its next journey.

I can agree with this one. Did the journey 3 year back on a Saturday, train was packed during school hols. We arrived about on time but with a packed train luggage prams etc there was no way it would go out on time. When the train stopped, opened doors the platform was wedged going back to Gloucester. It probably needs 20 mins turn around summer time.

 

[Route115?]

Two minutes throughout the day in the WTT at Barry Island. And there certainly wasn't any stepping back when I was there the week before last.

 

[Eloise]

10 minute turnaround is certainly not a rule on Southern Region. Only stations that have it are London Victoria (Central), Brighton and London Bridge (Central) which have 12 minute turnarounds for mainline services only.

FLU 700 have a minimum 10 min standard allowance at any location on the Southern and I suspect north of the River too.

All minimum turnrounds are listed at the start of 5.3 of the Timetable Planning Rules under standard values. Any exceptions are listed under the individual location. All based on working not public times hence you get the odd negative one.

There are a couple of maximum turnrounds or dwells too to save filling up or blocking platforms. Anything longer than x mins means you have to shunt the stock. A shunt will be timetabled but may not be needed on the day if other traffic isn't running.

 

[southern442]

Anyone mentioned the St. Ives branch yet? Slightly better now that most trains only call at Carbis Bay but still fairly tight for what it is. During the height of summer it seems more like a rapid-transit service than a scenic local branch.

 

[mmh]

I'll open the bidding with 1S63 the 1230 ex London Euston to Glasgow Central with a scheduled arrival time of 1711. The set then makes 1M18 the 1730 ex Glasgow Central to London Euston. This evening 1S63 is not expected to arrive in GLC until 1748 having been delayed by the "wires down" at Hanslope thus guaranteeing that 1M18 is a late start thereby disconcerting anyone boarding who had particularly been hoping for a 2227 arrival at EUS for onward travel arrangements.

For "inter city" services, GWR have some considerably shorter than that, e.g. at Weston-super-Mare. I see the negative turn around time at Wrexham has already been mentioned!

 

[Peregrine 4903]

FLU 700 have a minimum 10 min standard allowance at any location on the Southern and I suspect north of the River too.

All minimum turnrounds are listed at the start of 5.3 of the Timetable Planning Rules under standard values. Any exceptions are listed under the individual location. All based on working not public times hence you get the odd negative one.

There are a couple of maximum turnrounds or dwells too to save filling up or blocking platforms. Anything longer than x mins means you have to shunt the stock. A shunt will be timetabled but may not be needed on the day if other traffic isn't running.

I am well aware of that, I was just talking about rules specifically for stations

Each individual train class obviously have their own turnarounds time which are specififed in Section 5.3 of the Timetable Planning Rules at the beginning of 5.3.

There certainly aren't any maximum turnarounds in Kent and Sussex.

 

[mmh]

but as BoJ isn't allowed when on a route that's only permitted by virtue of being on a direct train,

That's interesting, I didn't know that. Do you know where that's defined?

 

[Watershed]

That's interesting, I didn't know that. Do you know where that's defined?

Well it's just NRCoT 13.1.1. Now of course I'm sure there will be some who interpret that as meaning "you can take any trains which run direct from A to B" (even if you break your journey en-route) or "you can use any train along the route taken by direct services".

But I think the intention of the clause is quite clear and I would certainly not expect to have much success breaking your journey at Surbiton, having taken a Waterloo 'rounder' on a Waterloo to Vauxhall return...

 

[jfollows]

That's interesting, I didn't know that. Do you know where that's defined?

A discussion happened on another thread; I note that the answers weren't conclusive but I suggest that if I have a Crewe-Birmingham ticket I'm allowed to use the one through train each day which goes via Shrewsbury, but I wouldn't personally try and also break my journey at Shrewsbury. Via Shrewsbury isn't a permitted route. If I broke my journey there, could I resume my journey on any train or would I have to wait for the following day's Crewe-Birmingham via Shrewsbury? My best feeling is that break of journey on such a trip wouldn't be appropriate and I wouldn't try it, even though the through train certainly is valid.

 

[JRT]

Bradford – Ilkley – Bradford (Mondays to Saturdays) have a 3 minutes turnround at Ilkley. I think it's been the same since electrification but the single line section means it's unlikely to be altered.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

I still think a 12.12 arrival at Maesteg from Holyhead, having departed Holyhead almost 6 hours earlier at 06.25, which then works the 12.17 back to Holyhead, is a pretty tight turnaround. Of course, if the train is running excessively late, it presumably can be terminated short at Cardiff Central, or possibly Bridgend.

 

[Eloise]

I am well aware of that, I was just talking about rules specifically for stations

Each individual train class obviously have their own turnarounds time which are specififed in Section 5.3 of the Timetable Planning Rules at the beginning of 5.3.

There certainly aren't any maximum turnarounds in Kent and Sussex.

Max turnrounds are rarer and more difficult to establish in the TPR. Edinburgh Waverley has one, Leeds may well do and Corby has max dwells so you don't block the line for freight from Manton Jn.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Max turnrounds are rarer and more difficult to establish in the TPR. Edinburgh Waverley has one, Leeds may well do and Corby has max dwells so you don't block the line for freight from Manton Jn.

Interesting, genuinely have never seen max turnarounds before.

Corby one makes a lot of sense.