What my point is is that the actual rules matter only in a handful of situations. Most staff apply their own version of 'common sense' as you allude to. This means they will either use their own set of made up rules just because that's what they have always done, or they will just accept what looks reasonable and reject what doesn't regardless. In some cases, this document of yours will have an influence yes - but the ticket in your example passes the duck test of looking like an Any Permitted Anytime Day Single, thus, given there isn't a TPE ONLY Anytime Day Single for that flow, probably being an Any Permitted Anytime Day Single. The fact is that the rules laid out in your document that I don't have access to don't seem to form part of the conditions of the ticket that you end up with post-excess. At least, that's all I could garner from that thread you helpfully linked to.
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Excess into TOC-only ticket?
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gray1404
Established Member
So in my case I will need to pay the full £7.30 if I need to come back early (before the easement on the 18.xx something LM service to Stafford for the Super Off Peak) and basically, excess the entire ticket up to a LM Off Peak (rather then just one leg, was not sure if they would base it on the difference between the Super OP Single and Off Peak Single Price but clearly not)
Much better I do this though then buy the Off Peak and then end up traveling on trains which I could have used the Super Off Peak on both. I'd feel like I'd overpaid £7.30.
Guys, am I right in saying that the Super Off Peak Restrictions on the LIV - EUS Route: LM Only only apply Monday to Saturday. and NOT on Sundays or Bank Holidays? The reason I am asking is that it may be that my return journey is on the bank holiday so if so I may not need to pay any excess
It can be time consuming to look up the restrictions on tickets using official methods, but fortunately a forum member made a website that makes it easy to look up the restriction codes...
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=LIV&dest=1072&grpo=0435&rte=42&tkt=OPR
... so you're fine to return on a Sunday
gray1404
Established Member
Thanks Yorkie
Its the Bank Holiday I'm looking at so I'm assuming, having looked at the page, that its the same restriction as per a Sunday - so I am fine to travel
Its the Bank Holiday I'm looking at so I'm assuming, having looked at the page, that its the same restriction as per a Sunday - so I am fine to travel
This conversation sounded familiar, but I see what happened now. I saw this thread hadn't had a reply to your question, but I thought I did answer it! Now I realise it was a separate thread!Thanks Yorkie
Its the Bank Holiday I'm looking at so I'm assuming, having looked at the page, that its the same restriction as per a Sunday - so I am fine to travel
I agree the conclusion is that the restrictions do not apply on Bank Holidays, but - shockingly - they do apply on Saturdays.
The idea that time restrictions apply at weekends and bank holidays is absurd in my opinion, and goes against the claims on the Simple rail fares page on the National Rail website.
As far as I'm concerned, the name "Super Off Peak" means valid throughout weekends, as those are the conditions on train companies serving my area.
It's a shame we don't have a proper ombudsman to do something about this nonsense.
Surely this is meant to be the job of the Rail Regulator.
gray1404
Established Member
Totally agree with you Yorkie, restrictions should NOT apply to this Restriction LF fare on a Saturday. Who would be the correct body to comaplin to about this? Although I would be worried if we complained too much LM might just remove the fare (they are not duty bound to offer it as the secondary operator).
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Should be worth noting that its not just on these journeys the restriction for Saturdays applies (e.g. Liv - Eus) it also applies on Super Off Peak on the Liv - Bhm route (Route: Crewe. - rather then LM only).
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Should be worth noting that its not just on these journeys the restriction for Saturdays applies (e.g. Liv - Eus) it also applies on Super Off Peak on the Liv - Bhm route (Route: Crewe. - rather then LM only).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Whyever not? Off Peak (interavailable) is in this case the regulated fare and does not have weekend restrictions. Why should a TOC not have restrictions on their entirely voluntary super-cheap walk-up fares? The other option is severe overcrowding or just getting rid of that fare entirely. Or simply doing it with Advances, which means less flexibility for the passenger.
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If you are talking East Coast here, Super Off Peak is the old Saver fare, which is the one that is equivalent to Off Peak in practically every other TOC area. It's East Coast that is out of line here, not everyone else, and that was because of the old GNER "Business Savers" which became the Off Peak.
LM is I think the only one with weekend restrictions on the Super Off Peak, but don't forget that BR had the "no Fridays and summer Saturdays" on the SuperSaver which was basically the same thing. In many ways, that approach could do with returning, as Friday evening is on most TOCs the busiest time of the week.
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I agree. However the ORR won't get involved in fares matters which are considered to be under the DfT's remit.
There's an obvious conflict of interest there, because the DfT want the TOCs to be happy as otherwise the TOCs may bid less for franchises.
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You can't really complain because it's not a regulated fare, so they can do what they want with it.
What I'm unhappy about is the false claims about how simple it all is. People who take the "simple rail fares" claims seriously may relax in the false knowledge that T&Cs really are the same nationwide and that the name "super off peak" really does mean the same thing everywhere.
I appreciate peak restrictions must vary to meet demand, and am not saying that all restriction codes should be the same, but there should be limits to what they can restrict and still give the product a certain name.
Under the old system, a product that was clearly different had a unique name. Now we have many different products all masquerading to be the same thing.
Super Off Peak with one TOC can mean any time Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays, but not valid at all on any other day, while on another it may be evenings only, and with LM there may be Saturday restrictions. By all means, have these products, but for goodness sake give them a different - and descriptive - name!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I do see your point, but to me "off peak" means a ticket with time restrictions, and "super off peak" means one with more time restrictions. The things that could do with being the same (and often are) are BoJ, advance purchase requirement and the likes.
But I do think the old situation was actually less confusing. Things like Saver, SuperSaver and Business Saver, and VT's late lamented "The Weekender", were actually more understandable. I do joke about SNCF's giving of a fancy name to just about every concept they can think of (crikey, they even name seat layouts - "Duo", "Club 4", "Square" and the likes) - but with tickets it does make things easier to understand.
gray1404
Established Member
I think then given its an unregulated fare with LM on the Super Off Peak, its best to make the most of it and enjoy using it. Its still less restrictive then an Advance and can be brought on the day too. On balance, I much prefer Super Off Peak to an old Super Saver because at least with the Super Off Peak, it is possibe to travel on every day of the week provided to ahere to the time restrictsion. I would hate for entire days to be exclued again like under the old system.
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