Excessing Railcard Discounted Tickets Used at an Invalid Time

[some bloke]

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From Trainline's website...

Buy your 16-25 Railcard now at Trainline

✅ WE NOW SELL 16-25 RAILCARDS! Buy a 16-25 Railcard & save up to 1/3 on UK rail travel today.

www.thetrainline.com

Extract...

Yes, but the onus is still on the seller to make clear whether a statement about excesses for "time-restricted tickets" applies if a person travels with a railcard-discounted ticket at the wrong time.

 

[Haywain]

Merely commented that I have concerns for people who have made mistakes and the messages coming back now are basically saying ‘it’s your own fault’ without consideration of potential circumstances and the actual people involved.

If the boot was on the other foot and someone was underpaying you, would you worry about their feelings before taking action to get your money?

 

[some bloke]

How could a seller argue that they don't have to mention all the key restrictions in the steps just before purchase, including restrictions which could lead to prosecution if they are ignored?

They would need to show that Condition of Travel 2.3 unambiguously supports their position.

"2.3 When purchasing your Ticket, we will make available information on specific restrictions that apply to your Ticket (for instance the train services on which you can use your Ticket..."

Again, all that the consumer needs is that the term is capable of meaning what the consumer claims.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2024 ==

In what sense is it true that Trainline has fulfilled the requirement to

"make available information on specific restrictions that apply to...the train services [plural] on which you can use your Ticket"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The £12 minimum fare loses its relevance more and more each year as inflation pushes more tickets above the threshold but the £12 hasn't changed in decades. We certainly don't want a change to a blanket rule like the Two Together railcard has, I hate that I can't discount a ticket for a passenger travelling pre-09:30 on a sleepy rural stopping service.

Northern's "Advances with everything" policy also affects it, as it doesn't apply to Advances. In Northern's area there will also be a lot of people conditioned to commute on very cheap Advances discounted even further, without the cap applying.

The intention of exempting Advances from it wasn't to enable commuting - the policy was enacted when Advances were for long distance travel only.

 

[some bloke]

In what sense is it true that Trainline has fulfilled the requirement to

"make available information on specific restrictions that apply to...the train services [plural] on which you can use your Ticket"?

(Even though "apply to" in the whole text refers to tickets, I hope the point is clear.)

 

[AdamWW]

Therefore, picking a cheaper ticket for a train time after 10:00 a.m. and travelling before 10:00 a.m. is seen as a deliberate decision on the part of the purchaser.

Except if when purchasing, as I saw today, the Trainline defaults to the first train that doesn't have a minimum fare even though it's nowhere near being the next train.

I could also see someone genuinely thinking that if the later tickets are shown as being valid on any other train the more expensive ones shown on earlier train must be a bug; not entirely uncommon in this world.

If you're good enough to go to uni, you're good enough to read some simple terms and conditions.

But not necessarily to remember everything it if it doesn't seem relevant at the time

And I suspect that I'm in a minority here, but I think given the way that the minimum fare is phrased in the terms and conditions it's very easy to think of that as information (e.g. "You won't get a full discount if you buy a ticket in these circumstances") rather than a warning ("You may get told when buying a ticket that it's valid on any train but actually if you use it on the wrong one you could end up in court").

 

[jamiearmley]

Except if when purchasing, as I saw today, the Trainline defaults to the first train that doesn't have a minimum fare even though it's nowhere near being the next train.

I could also see someone genuinely thinking that if the later tickets are shown as being valid on any other train the more expensive ones shown on earlier train must be a bug; not entirely uncommon in this world.



But not necessarily to remember everything it if it doesn't seem relevant at the time

And I suspect that I'm in a minority here, but I think given the way that the minimum fare is phrased in the terms and conditions it's very easy to think of that as information (e.g. "You won't get a full discount if you buy a ticket in these circumstances") rather than a warning ("You may get told when buying a ticket that it's valid on any train but actually if you use it on the wrong one you could end up in court").

The terms and conditions worked well at a time when all tickets were purchased via an interaction with a human.

This is only all too clear during any revenue check, as the majority of ticket irregularities would not have occurred had the ticket been purchased from a member of staff.

I don't think that the rules and regulations have updated to keep pace with the changes to the ticket buying habits, and too much responsibility is placed upon the consumer.

That said, however, the majority of consumers seem to be able to purchase their tickets and abide within the rules of the tickets that they carry. There does seem to be on this forum, a feeling that the majority of ticket irregularities occur due to a genuine mistake - but I can tell you from my own experience on the ground ( and I recognise that this is only my opinion) - that the majority of ticket irregularities occur not due to a genuine mistake, but more from the natural desire on the part of the consumer to save a bit of cash, but also not realising the potential consequences of their actions in relation to the specific laws on the railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The terms and conditions worked well at a time when all tickets were purchased via an interaction with a human.

They didn't always pick stuff up. Way back when I travelled several times over the space of about 2 months on an expired Railcard - nobody had noticed, neither me, nor any traincrew, nor booking office staff. Fortunately it was a booking office clerk that eventually did notice and I apologised and renewed on the spot. These days that could have cost me a few hundred in settlements...

I think that probably is the most likely one to be a genuine error, particularly if it has only just expired.

I did have it drilled into my mind "if it's before 10am check carefully" - that's not hard to remember. Though I suspect there are more genuine mistakes using the return halves of period tickets than the outward. There will be the odd few who buy a walk up ticket in advance for 10:30 then decide on the spur of the moment to go an hour earlier, but most people will select the train they intend to use on the outward unless they're trying it on having noticed a later one is cheaper.

 

[AdamWW]

That said, however, the majority of consumers seem to be able to purchase their tickets and abide within the rules of the tickets that they carry. There does seem to be on this forum, a feeling that the majority of ticket irregularities occur due to a genuine mistake -

That's not been my impression - either from the forum or from experience when travelling. I've seen lots of people buying tickets on trains when they should have bought beforehand, and I'm pretty sure that if the guard hadn't come round they wouldn't have bothered.

And I know people (well off, professionals) who really should know better who sometimes do this. Victimless crime and all that.

I imagine the majority of fare evasion is intentional. I don't condone it and think that it should be penalised. And I appreciate that inevitably people making honest mistakes will get caught up in the net.

But it seems to me that the railway can be too heavy handed, particularly given that they must know that they are penalising a fair number of people who didn't intentionally break the rules.

And the treatment of railcard offences (by people who are entitled to the railcard) seems to be about the worst, particularly now that the railway can trawl through someone's travel history. Someone using an expired railcard they are still entitled to has cost the railway very little (the cost of a railcard at most) and there is a good chance that it's an accident.

So charging someone for a full anytime ticket for each "offence" seems wildly over the top to me. The argument I've seen for charging a full fare is that if someone has been caught fare evading once they've probably done it before so the penalty has to be more than just buying a new ticket. But when you already know of other incidents, to charge that penalty for each occurrence seems unjustified. As does disregarding the money already paid (i.e. the penalty is more than if they hadn't bought a ticket at all - how do you justify that?).

The railway would presumably argue that under the NRCoT they have a contractual right to do so, but that doesn't make it morally right and I do wonder if it's in unfair terms and conditions territory, especially as none of this is spelled out when you buy a railcard.

And as for incorrectly using a discounted railcard ticket before 10:00 I don't understand why it's considered so much more serious than using an off peak ticket at the wrong time. It just seems to be case that the railway can do it so they do. Of course if someone has been warned about it and continues to do so that would be a different matter but presumably could be treated differently and maybe also would if someone was repeatedly using a regular ticket at an invalid time.

And if the ticket was clearly sold as valid on any train I cannot see justification for any penalty let alone prosecution. I just can't understand the view that the railcard terms and conditions should somehow take priority over a clear and unqualified statement made when buying the ticket.

I understand that a TOC has no control over what a third party seller says when selling tickets. However that's not the passenger's problem. It's presumably open to the TOC to sue the ticket seller for losses incurred by their incorrect information but I can't see that happening. Unlike dealing with passengers they don't have a large imbalance of power and a compliant court system to rely on.

Though I suspect there are more genuine mistakes using the return halves of period tickets than the outward.

Would there be many period returns cheap enough for this to be a problem?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would there be many period returns cheap enough for this to be a problem?

To be under the minimum fare for a 16-25, I suspect not. However you can trip yourself up with Railcards that have an absolute morning peak bar, e.g. Network, Senior and Family (all in the Network area only if I recall).

 

[AdamWW]

To be under the minimum fare for a 16-25, I suspect not. However you can trip yourself up with Railcards that have an absolute morning peak bar, e.g. Network, Senior and Family (all in the Network area only if I recall).

Yes in those cases fair enough.

Also I think the Two Together railcard and not just in the SE in that case.

 

[BongoStar]

To address the query why an offpeak ticket or off route ticket can be excesses but not a railcard discount.

We have another thread in fares advise which is discussing whether peak/offpeak trains exist or actually peak/offpeak tickets do. The general conclusion was there on any given train, there is a possibility of an offpeak ticket being valid on it - however remote.

So for that reason, there can be a genuine reason of why someone with an offpeak ticket can mistakenly be caught out on a peak time train (although I think most of such cases are not genuine errors but deliberate chances- another debate).

However there is no confusion on Railcard timing. Either it is 9:30am/10am or it isn't, there is no ambiguity about that. And therefore I think ToC not showing leniency around that is a fine approach.

 

[AdamWW]

To address the query why an offpeak ticket or off route ticket can be excesses but not a railcard discount.

We have another thread in fares advise which is discussing whether peak/offpeak trains exist or actually peak/offpeak tickets do. The general conclusion was there on any given train, there is a possibility of an offpeak ticket being valid on it - however remote.

So for that reason, there can be a genuine reason of why someone with an offpeak ticket can mistakenly be caught out on a peak time train (although I think most of such cases are not genuine errors but deliberate chances- another debate).

However there is no confusion on Railcard timing. Either it is 9:30am/10am or it isn't, there is no ambiguity about that. And therefore I think ToC not showing leniency around that is a fine approach.

So I think you're arguing that it's implausible that anyone could genuinely mistakenly find themselves caught out by the railcard minimum fare.

Even though if it's an anytime ticket they are likely to have been told on purchase that there are no time restrictions?

I'd agree with you if the restrictions were mentioned at the time of purchase, and perhaps even if there was a vague statement like "Valid at all times unless subject to railcard restrictions". But for reasons I don't understand the industry chooses not even to do that.

 

[Haywain]

especially as none of this is spelled out when you buy a railcard.

It's in the Terms & Conditions:

2.10. If you fail to comply with condition 2.7, 2.8 and/or 2.9, the Train Company reserves the right to charge you the full price for the single fare applicable to your journey, as if no ticket had been purchased before starting the journey.

2.7 refers to buying before you board and 2.8 refers to carrying the railcard.

 

[BongoStar]

So I think you're arguing that it's implausible that anyone could genuinely mistakenly find themselves caught out by the railcard minimum fare.

Even though if it's an anytime ticket they are likely to have been told on purchase that there are no time restrictions?

Yes, it is impossible to even genuinely make a mistake and buy a railcard discounted ticket for a time when they are not valid. Lets looks at the ways one can purchase a ticket:

1. At a TVM on stations where they are available. The option to buy a network railcard discounted ticket does not even show up if trying to buy a ticket before 10am. I do find it annoying as some times I am at the TVM at 9.50am with the intention of boarding a 10.02am, but cant apply a network card discount. Which drives me to below 2 purchase options.
2. At a ticket counter by asking specifically for the ticket needed and mentioning that a railcard discount is needed to be applied. If its peak time then the staff always query on this.
3. Online via the likes of third party sellers or ToC website/app. The only time a railcard discount is applied is if the itinirary is selected to be after 10am. Before that, the discount isnt applied

Given that the system as designed would not even sell a railcard discounted ticket for travel when its not valid, I do not believe such a mistake is possible.

The only exception is when someone buys an offpeak open return and applies a discount. The return leg can catch someone out, but for singles or outward journey, it is simply not possible to make this mistake.

All above is beside the point that it is the responiblity of the railcard holder to ensure adherence to its terms and conditions, which they signed for when applying for a railcard.

Even though if it's an anytime ticket they are likely to have been told on purchase that there are no time restrictions?

Can you share a screenshot from a retailer where a railcard anytime ticket can be purchased for a time that is not valid please. I am keen to see if there is something I am missing, otherwise we are discussing hypothetics which don't actually happen.

 

[AdamWW]

It's in the Terms & Conditions:

2.7 refers to buying before you board and 2.8 refers to carrying the railcard.

I was referring to the practise of applying this penalty to multiple historic journeys - this certainly isn't mentioned explicitly. You can argue that it doesn't need to be and maybe it doesn't. But it isn't.

But let's look at this.

2.8 says you must show a valid ticket and valid railcard when asked.
If the railway later finds out that I travelled without a valid railcard, how does that in itself violate 2.8?
2.7 seems to be just saying that you may not be allowed to use your railcard on board so I don't think that works either.

We could look at the NRCoT (after all, if I have an expired railcard how can the railcard T&Cs apply?)

8.5 says "If you are travelling with a Railcard discounted Ticket and are unable to present the Railcard when asked by the staff or authorised agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having joined a train without a valid Ticket and Conditions 9.1 – 9.5 will apply."

I'm now most curious as to the grounds for retrospectively applying penalties, other than the fact that they generally seem to arise in offers for out of course settlements so presumably don't need to have any basis in law.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However there is no confusion on Railcard timing. Either it is 9:30am/10am or it isn't, there is no ambiguity about that. And therefore I think ToC not showing leniency around that is a fine approach.

Family and Senior isn't a flat time, it's based on when off peak is available (morning peak only). That's sometimes flat in itself but not always.

 

[AdamWW]

Can you share a screenshot from a retailer where a railcard anytime ticket can be purchased for a time that is not valid please. I am keen to see if there is something I am missing, otherwise we are discussing hypothetics which don't actually happen.

That's not my point.

I buy a ticket for a time it is valid. I'm told in unambigous terms that I'm buying a ticket which is valid at any time.

What grounds, then, can there be for arguing that I've broken the law if I use it at the wrong time?

And as I explained above, you don't actually have to deliberately select a train after 10:00. The Trainline web interface can default to this, presumably because it's using a "Find the cheapest train" algorithm.

And if I'm told it's valid on any train and there are no reservations, why would I worry about which train was selected?

Someone could of course also buy a ticket and arrive earlier at the station than expected.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2024 ==

For the avoidance of doubt, I do imagine that the majority of people doing this are deliberately choosing a later service than they intend to travel on. But that doesn't mean I think it's right to penalise someone for doing something the railway said was allowed, whether an innocent mistake or otherwise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2024 ==

All above is beside the point that it is the responiblity of the railcard holder to ensure adherence to its terms and conditions, which they signed for when applying for a railcard.

But if the railway tells you two contradictory things, why should the most restrictive one naturally apply? Doesn't consumer law suggest the opposite?

And - genuine question - I know you have to sign a physical railcard but does it actually say on the card that you're signing to accept the T&Cs?
What if it's an electronic one?

 

[BongoStar]

I buy a ticket for a time it is valid. I'm told in unambigous terms that I'm buying a ticket which is valid at any time.

I am just trying to point out that you cannot buy such a ticket. You cannot buy an Anytime ticket with the most common railcards. So the question of being told that it is not valid before 10am (for network card as an example) doesn't arise in the first place.

I have tried right now purchasing on GWR and XC portals and it just seems impossible to buy an Anytime ticket with the discount. But I must say, I am not an expert purchaser either, so keen to know how it can happen.

The issue of Trainline algorithms etc is not really an issue with ToCs. There are other retailers which don't do that. Infact GWR website has a prompt that says prices can change based on time selected. I am sure if enough users complain about it, they may fix it (and the issue of automatically applying railcard discount based on past purchases)

 

[AdamWW]

I am just trying to point out that you cannot buy such a ticket. You cannot buy an Anytime ticket with the most common railcards. So the question of being told that it is not valid before 10am (for network card as an example) doesn't arise in the first place.

I am now confused. Are you saying that you can't get an on-line system to apply a railcard discount to an anytime ticket, only to cheaper ones?

I can, and there would be something very wrong if I couldn't.

The issue of Trainline algorithms etc is not really an issue with ToCs.

I would argue that the information provided to a passenger who has purchased a ticket via an officially approved reseller is relevant to TOCs.

If someone has been told a ticket is valid when in isn't, the TOC should take it up with the reseller, not prosecute the passenger.

 

[BongoStar]

I am now confused. Are you saying that you can't get an on-line system to apply a railcard discount to an anytime ticket, only to cheaper ones?

I can, and there would be something very wrong if I couldn't.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I cannot seem to get any railcard discounted Anytime tickets for morning peak journey/outside their railcard validity. The only way I get them is when I select a journey time within the railcard validity period, so for network card, if I select trip to start after 10am.

On Trainline, I agree that it says you can also travel on .........., but these are all later journeys, not earlier one.

So I am trying to understand how can anyone buy a railcard discounted Anytime ticket for, say 11am and accidentally get on a 9am, on the basis that Trainline screen showed its also valid on 11.10, 11.20 etc (ie times after 11am).

I may be missing something here altogether.

 

[AdamWW]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I cannot seem to get any railcard discounted Anytime tickets for morning peak journey/outside their railcard validity. The only way I get them is when I select a journey time within the railcard validity period, so for network card, if I select trip to start after 10am.

On Trainline, I agree that it says you can also travel on .........., but these are all later journeys, not earlier one.

So I am trying to understand how can anyone buy a railcard discounted Anytime ticket for, say 11am and accidentally get on a 9am, on the basis that Trainline screen showed its also valid on 11.10, 11.20 etc (ie times after 11am).

I may be missing something here altogether.

Ah you're seeing something different to me.

On the web (not the app), for me the Trainline automatically selects the first train that a discounted ticket can be used on.

And it says:

• You’ve selected the 10:12, but you can travel on any eligible train.
• Travel any time of day.

Now one could argue that "eligible" might exclude trains before 10:00;. But "Travel any time of day" is unambiguous.

If it just lists trains after 10 and doesn't make the statement that it's valid all day, then that's something very difference.

 

[BongoStar]

Ah you're seeing something different to me.

On the web (not the app), for me the Trainline automatically selects the first train that a discounted ticket can be used on.

And it says:

• You’ve selected the 10:12, but you can travel on any eligible train.
• Travel any time of day.

Now one could argue that "eligible" might exclude trains before 10:00;. But "Travel any time of day" is unambiguous.

If it just lists trains after 10 and doesn't make the statement that it's valid all day, then that's something very difference.

Indeed. I didn't realise it's so different on the Web. Just tried it myself and learnt something new. Very wrong if Trainline to misleading that way, no excuse, especially when they have managed to get it right on the app.

But if you try other apps or Web browser for GWR or XC or the sites engine, this problem doesn't arise.

Another thing for Trainline to fix. I don't use then for tickets and after today, will not even think about using them.

 

[Krokodil]

Ah you're seeing something different to me.

On the web (not the app), for me the Trainline automatically selects the first train that a discounted ticket can be used on.

And it says:

• You’ve selected the 10:12, but you can travel on any eligible train.
• Travel any time of day.

Now one could argue that "eligible" might exclude trains before 10:00;. But "Travel any time of day" is unambiguous.

If it just lists trains after 10 and doesn't make the statement that it's valid all day, then that's something very difference.

What times are shown under "also valid at X, Y, Z" on an example journey? If you get a sub-£12 ticket, does it also show invalid trains or does it just list those after 10

 

[BongoStar]

What times are shown under "also valid at X, Y, Z" on an example journey? If you get a sub-£12 ticket, does it also show invalid trains or does it just list those after 10

No, it does not show all journeys for the day or after 10. It just lists those after the selected itinerary. So if one has selected a railcard discount qualifying journey, then the ones shown after will be after the validity period has started, so not a problem to most users who input an itinerary.

 

[Krokodil]

No, it does not show all journeys for the day or after 10. It just lists those after the selected itinerary. So if one has selected a railcard discount qualifying journey, then the ones shown after will be after the validity period has started, so not a problem to most users who input an itinerary.

So it's never going to offer "also valid on the 09:47"

 

[AdamWW]

What times are shown under "also valid at X, Y, Z" on an example journey? If you get a sub-£12 ticket, does it also show invalid trains or does it just list those after 10

For me, using the Trainline via the web and not logged in, it doesn't show any specific trains as also valid.
Just the statement "Travel any time of day"

I would like to think that a magistrate would hesitate to convict someone for fare evasion by using a ticket at the wrong time of day when specifically told at purchase that it was valid any time.

But if you try other apps or Web browser for GWR or XC or the sites engine, this problem doesn't arise.

Well with LNER, for example, if you click to find out ticket validity it will bring up a pop up with "Valid at any time of day by the route and Train Operator shown." at the top.

If you go down to the bottom and expand the "Discount details" section you will then find, as part of quite a few lines of text:
"Minimum fares / time restrictions may apply to tickets bought with a Railcard or other discount card. See terms and conditions of the appropriate Railcard or discount card for details."

I'd argue that's still not good enough given that the text at the top contradicts it and isn't qualified in any way.

In my view it could easily mention the possibility of railcard restrictions, e.g. something like "except when used with a railcard discount when restrictions may apply."

Though I think the last time I brought this up someone argued that the true situation is so complex and nuanced that it cannot be captured by the English language and the only option available to the railway is to mislead. (Though perhaps not quite in those words).

Of course in principle a computer would actually be capable of providing appropriate information based on whether a railcard was used and if so whether the minimum fare applies. But that's probably too complex a principle for a web site that can't really cope with the idea that it sometimes sells tickets for other operators.

 

[sheff1]

1. At a TVM on stations where they are available. The option to buy a network railcard discounted ticket does not even show up if trying to buy a ticket before 10am.

Not so. I could buy a Network Railcard discounted ticket from some TVMs at 0700 if I wished.

 

[Krokodil]

Of course in principle a computer would actually be capable of providing appropriate information based on whether a railcard was used and if so whether the minimum fare applies. But that's probably too complex a principle for a web site that can't really cope with the idea that it sometimes sells tickets for other operators.

You'd think that it wouldn't be too difficult for a website to flag up a ticket with a railcard discount that may have time restrictions as a result and change the message to "any time after 10am" (or whatever). The systems manage to apply these rules in the first place so why can't they create a flag?

 

[Tedb]

The problem here is that you also seem to be of a mind that it is unreasonable for people to read the terms and conditions in the first place.

And let me tell you a secret from over a decade of professional experience: they still won’t read them even if you add these rubrics.

You are, quite frankly, casting around for excuses.

No I’m not. As said, I’m looking to understand what changes could be made in the future that reduce confusion and people who have made an error don’t end up paying large fines or being prosecuted. I have agreed T&Cs should have been read. I do not suggest in my posts that it is unreasonable for people to read T&Cs, I’m merely saying not everybody reads the T&Cs. I have said we’ll go through the GWR process and pay the fine. Your ‘let me tell you’ and ‘you are, quite frankly’ comments are patronising and not in the spirit of my posts. Non of your comments are informative or helpful