Expired railcard prosecution from 1+ year ago.

[trainlover4]

Hi all,

I have been researching a specific issue on this forum, but have not found an exact match of my situation, so any help would be much appreciated.

Well over a year ago, I was stopped on a train by an inspector with an expired railcard. The railcard had expired a few months beforehand and I was being lazy to not check the expiry date and renew it. I was eligible for a simple renewal which would have cost £30. The inspector took my details and did not let me pay a fine at the time. He asked to see my previous journeys on trainline since the railcard had expired but I played dumb and didn't show these as it would have been pretty incriminating.

I had heard nothing since the incident and assumed the penalty had not been noted, or there was leniency. But, I heard from GWR recently that they are investigating me and want to see all the railcards I have owned. I have historically always owned the appropriate railcard since this recent period of the incident. Now, I am worried about a large fine as there were 20+ journeys taken with an expired railcard that they can view on Trainline.

Does anyone have any advice on both the fine process and how long GWR have to prosecute as it has been nearly a year and a half since I was stopped?

Thanks

 

[signed]

The recent cases we see are trying to fish and scare you into giving them settlments since offenses can't be criminally prosecuted after 6 months

Please post every communication you have with GWR with any personal information redacted for advice

 

[Haywain]

They cannot prosecute you in the criminal courts as the offence was more than 6 months ago, but they are at liberty to take action against you in the civil courts within 6 years.

 

[trainlover4]

Hey guys, thanks for jumping in on this. I did reply to the below email with some confirmation of what they already knew (that I travelled with an expired railcard on the date of the incident). Hopefully that is not me incriminating myself in any way.

Here is the email I received -
Good morning BLANK

I am currently processing the report submitted to our office for your journey on BLANK 2024 when you travelled from BLANK to BLANK with a ticket that was discounted with a 16-25 railcard, the railcard presented had expired on BLANK 2023.

As advised by our Revenue Protection Inspector at the time of your encounter, due to the period between your railcard being valid and the encounter on BLANK we are investigating rail travel history. I note that you have applied railcard discount to journeys from BLANK 2018 but I have been unable to locate any railcard record for this period.

I am writing to you at this stage to request evidence of railcards held from BLANK so that journeys can be removed from our calculations.

Please forward copies of railcards held in your name for the period BLANK to BLANK verification.

 

[AlterEgo]

GWR have started to make civil claims for avoided fares which you might want to bear in mind. They’ve already detected the other discounted fares, so engaging with them at this point might be prudent.

 

[3rd rail land]

GWR have started to make civil claims for avoided fares which you might want to bear in mind. They’ve already detected the other discounted fares, so engaging with them at this point might be prudent.

True, but the burden of proof is on them. If the op only travelled on an invalid the one time they were caught then I don't see any benefit in responding any further to GWR on this matter.

If however the OP has had other invalid tickets and there is an online trail to prove this then I would agree that engaging would be prudent.

 

[AlterEgo]

True, but the burden of proof is on them. If the op only travelled on an invalid the one time they were caught then I don't see any benefit in responding any further to GWR on this matter.

But the OP says they did this 20 plus times, and as we have seen, the company has detected this, because they are asking for historic railcards.

 

[3rd rail land]

But the OP says they did this 20 plus times, and as we have seen, the company has detected this, because they are asking for historic railcards.

It helps if I read the opening post properly! In that case definitely work with GWR as there is clear evidence of offending so you'd be found guilty in court and they have a track record of using civil courts to get what they are rightfully owed.

Seems like they have the OP bang to rights and all that can be done here is to ensure they only include journeys where invalid tickets were used in the past 6 years.

 

[trainlover4]

So, the 20+ times were on the most recent railcard expiry. One thing I am worried about regarding the request for railcards up to 7 years ago is the possibility of incriminating myself further. I would have to find the physical copies or photo evidence of these previous railcards as they expired years ago, so I no longer use them. Do I need to hand those over, and if I do, am I handing them more rope to hang myself with? I'm not really aware of what rights they have in a civil case regarding asking for evidence.

Essentially, I am aware the whole situation is my responsibility, so I am accepting of paying a fine/settlement of course. I am mainly just worried about the fee getting excessive if they treat all the 20+ times as separate incidents with separate fines. Do you guys know the typical settlement process that GWR go through?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@trainlover4. Welcome to the forum. What was the typical journey made using inappropriately railcard discounted tickets? You might well get asked, by GWR, to pay them the full undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare for each of these various journeys (a return journey calculated as 2 x singles), with a three figure admin fee added on top, and with no allowance made for whatever you've already paid. Be a large sum, potentially, but not, as such, a 'fine', as those are normally only ever imposed by a Court, but if you can further advise, it might just be possible to determine how much might be at stake. Good luck in sorting!

 

[ikcdab]

You admit to the 20 times, so ethically you ought you cooperate with GWR and pay the appropriate penalties. I don't think on this forum we should be supporting fare evasion by suggesting ways of getting out of valid penalties. I have detected that all train companies are getting far more aggressive and successful in prosecuting offenders. Outside of the 20 fares, I would now ignore the previous railcards. Its not an offence to buy tickets with an expired Railcard: the offence is using the ticket. Pay up on the admitted 20+ and leave the others. They are water too far under the bridge.

 

[island]

GWR have started to make civil claims for avoided fares which you might want to bear in mind. They’ve already detected the other discounted fares, so engaging with them at this point might be prudent.

Yes, although claims for journeys in 2018 are out of time.

 

[Haywain]

You admit to the 20 times, so ethically you ought you cooperate with GWR and pay the appropriate penalties. I don't think on this forum we should be supporting fare evasion by suggesting ways of getting out of valid penalties.

The purpose of this forum is to provide assistance to those who come here for help. None of us condone fare evasion but we do look to help people get the best outcome that can be achieved.

 

[ikcdab]

The purpose of this forum is to provide assistance to those who come here for help. None of us condone fare evasion but we do look to help people get the best outcome that can be achieved.

What I have tried to do. Cooperate and pay for the 20. GWR know about those and they are getting more aggressive and reliable about prosecuting. But ignore the previous ones. That is the best outcome as I see it.

 

[mrmartin]

It would be helpful to know how expensive these journeys are?

I think you have a few options - I'm assuming there are 20 actual "incidents" and there isn't loads more they could trawl through as that changes things. I am definitely not a lawyer though!

1) ignore it entirely, with the potential they give up. Risk is you get hit with the full award of 2x anytime singles for the journeys plus (probably small?) costs - minus the money you have already paid (I think?!)

2) ask them how they know about your other journeys they've mentioned and any other information on their investigation. You could phrase this in a positive way that would aid you finding the information.

3) do a without prejudice letter offering to pay for the 2x anytime day singles, minus the money you already paid for the one incident (plus maybe a token amount for their admin time) you were caught for but not mention anything else
4) do a without prejudice letter offering some other amount, somewhere between 1) and 20x the amount in 1). If you are worried about money you could also say this is only possible with a payment plan of £x a month due to your financial circumstances
5) just tell them about the Railcard and see what happens

Depending on the amounts involved/how many journeys this actually effects I'd probably start with 2 and then continue onwards, offering 3 and then 4. I personally wouldn't be too worried about older journeys past the 20 if you did genuinely have a rail card then.

Just be wary you cannot lie to them - and you have no right to defend yourself from self incrimination in the same way you can in criminal courts.

 

[trainlover4]

@trainlover4. Welcome to the forum. What was the typical journey made using inappropriately railcard discounted tickets? You might well get asked, by GWR, to pay them the full undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare for each of these various journeys (a return journey calculated as 2 x singles), with a three figure admin fee added on top, and with no allowance made for whatever you've already paid. Be a large sum, potentially, but not, as such, a 'fine', as those are normally only ever imposed by a Court, but if you can further advise, it might just be possible to determine how much might be at stake. Good luck in sorting!

Cheers - so some fares were really small, and a couple of journeys were more substantial. I have done the maths, and the full cost that I paid was around £200. So add another hundred onto that for the undiscounted fares. If they try to make them anytime fares too, that could add significant cost.

You admit to the 20 times, so ethically you ought you cooperate with GWR and pay the appropriate penalties. I don't think on this forum we should be supporting fare evasion by suggesting ways of getting out of valid penalties. I have detected that all train companies are getting far more aggressive and successful in prosecuting offenders. Outside of the 20 fares, I would now ignore the previous railcards. Its not an offence to buy tickets with an expired Railcard: the offence is using the ticket. Pay up on the admitted 20+ and leave the others. They are water too far under the bridge.

For sure, I am willing to pay a penalty as I did make the mistake. Just trying to understand how bad the penalty could be to prepare the funds, and keep it as low as possible through co-operation.

It would be helpful to know how expensive these journeys are?

I think you have a few options - I'm assuming there are 20 actual "incidents" and there isn't loads more they could trawl through as that changes things. I am definitely not a lawyer though!

1) ignore it entirely, with the potential they give up. Risk is you get hit with the full award of 2x anytime singles for the journeys plus (probably small?) costs - minus the money you have already paid (I think?!)

2) ask them how they know about your other journeys they've mentioned and any other information on their investigation. You could phrase this in a positive way that would aid you finding the information.

3) do a without prejudice letter offering to pay for the 2x anytime day singles, minus the money you already paid for the one incident (plus maybe a token amount for their admin time) you were caught for but not mention anything else
4) do a without prejudice letter offering some other amount, somewhere between 1) and 20x the amount in 1). If you are worried about money you could also say this is only possible with a payment plan of £x a month due to your financial circumstances
5) just tell them about the Railcard and see what happens

Depending on the amounts involved/how many journeys this actually effects I'd probably start with 2 and then continue onwards, offering 3 and then 4. I personally wouldn't be too worried about older journeys past the 20 if you did genuinely have a rail card then.

Just be wary you cannot lie to them - and you have no right to defend yourself from self incrimination in the same way you can in criminal courts.

Yes, so I currently doing a version of 2), as I have asked them for the status on the investigation and whether they have an idea on the £ figure. I have said the historic railcards will be difficult to access, so I am hoping they will not keep pushing for that and we can discuss a settlement figure. Thanks for your help guys and I'll update the thread when they respond.

 

[Brent Goose]

@trainlover4. Welcome to the forum. What was the typical journey made using inappropriately railcard discounted tickets? You might well get asked, by GWR, to pay them the full undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare for each of these various journeys (a return journey calculated as 2 x singles), with a three figure admin fee added on top, and with no allowance made for whatever you've already paid. Be a large sum, potentially, but not, as such, a 'fine', as those are normally only ever imposed by a Court, but if you can further advise, it might just be possible to determine how much might be at stake. Good luck in sorting!

Given the OP was stopped last year (although the OP hasn’t yet shared the date) it could be that the 6 month period for prosecution has passed.

In that case I would have thought any civil recovery is limited to the discount incorrectly applied (or in the alternative simply the railcard fee) plus the limit on costs included in the small claims track.