Expired Railcard

[Panky5555]

Good afternoon,

I hope you are all doing well and enjoying the amazing weather we finally have!

I am in need of some advice...

I work in London so I need to commute in via rail. I am also ex military, so I am entitled to a veterans railcard that I have had for the last few years now.

In January I purchased a ticket costing me £52ish instead of the regular price of £70ish. To my horror, when I got to London, the ticket officer checked my railcard which was out of date! A genuine and honest mistake on my part. I genuinely did not know that my railcard was out of date which I explained and I updated the railcard there and then.
The officer proceeded to take my information not telling me what the punishment would be, I thought perhaps a warning or maybe to pay the difference in the fare.
I then received a Penalty Notice of £40 which I found to be unfair for a honest mistake considering the letter stated "intent of fare avoidance" when I had absolutely no intent on doing so!
I proceeded to appeal my penalty which got rejected, where I then proceeded to contact my local MP who told me that he would be contacting the Chief Executive of SWR.

Two months went on and I had no correspondence from anyone, where I thought that perhaps they had looked over my penalty and that the letter from the MP may have persuaded them otherwise. However, I have just received in the post a court Summons to magistrates court stating that I have Prosecution costs of £160! Upon doing a bit of researching, if I am found guilty, I will not only have to pay this fine, but I will also receive a criminal record!

I know not to believe everything that Google provides which is why I am here asking for advice from anyone that knows the ins and outs of the law and what might come from this.
I feel that me appealing my case and waiting on responses has now made SWR take me to court which I feel is completely unfair!

In hindsight, I wish I just paid the original penalty, but my naivety to the law made me think otherwise!

My stomach is now churning and I'm not going to lie, am kind of worried about the responses that I will receive on this post!

Nonetheless, thank you for your time in reading and I look forward to hearing from you all in due course.

Kind regards,

 

[AlterEgo]

You mention you appealed the Penalty Fare. Did you make a formal appeal in line with the protocol laid out in the Penalty Fare, and within the correct time limit? What was your reason for appealing the penalty fare, what grounds did you give? This is important, as if you appeal a Penalty Fare in line with the legislation then the company is barred from prosecuting you. Your MP writing to the company is not an appeal and, absent any procedural issues like signage at the station, it sounds like the Penalty Fare was issued correctly and in line with practice.

Where were you travelling from and to, and which ticket exactly did you hold?

Please upload all the correspondence you have, both from you and the company, including the Penalty Fare, with your details blacked out. This is also important because the law is precise and people need to see everything to give the best and most accurate advice.

 

[furlong]

(We don't yet know if it was a "Penalty Fare" - there are indications otherwise.)

 

[WesternLancer]

Good afternoon,

I hope you are all doing well and enjoying the amazing weather we finally have!

I am in need of some advice...

I work in London so I need to commute in via rail. I am also ex military, so I am entitled to a veterans railcard that I have had for the last few years now.

In January I purchased a ticket costing me £52ish instead of the regular price of £70ish. To my horror, when I got to London, the ticket officer checked my railcard which was out of date! A genuine and honest mistake on my part. I genuinely did not know that my railcard was out of date which I explained and I updated the railcard there and then.
The officer proceeded to take my information not telling me what the punishment would be, I thought perhaps a warning or maybe to pay the difference in the fare.
I then received a Penalty Notice of £40 which I found to be unfair for a honest mistake considering the letter stated "intent of fare avoidance" when I had absolutely no intent on doing so!
I proceeded to appeal my penalty which got rejected, where I then proceeded to contact my local MP who told me that he would be contacting the Chief Executive of SWR.

Two months went on and I had no correspondence from anyone, where I thought that perhaps they had looked over my penalty and that the letter from the MP may have persuaded them otherwise. However, I have just received in the post a court Summons to magistrates court stating that I have Prosecution costs of £160! Upon doing a bit of researching, if I am found guilty, I will not only have to pay this fine, but I will also receive a criminal record!

I know not to believe everything that Google provides which is why I am here asking for advice from anyone that knows the ins and outs of the law and what might come from this.
I feel that me appealing my case and waiting on responses has now made SWR take me to court which I feel is completely unfair!

In hindsight, I wish I just paid the original penalty, but my naivety to the law made me think otherwise!

My stomach is now churning and I'm not going to lie, am kind of worried about the responses that I will receive on this post!

Nonetheless, thank you for your time in reading and I look forward to hearing from you all in due course.

Kind regards,

Welcome - you will get good advice on here - but I think the 1st thing for you to do is to upload an anonymised copy of the correspondence you have received (ie blank out your personal details and case reference etc) so people can see where things are in the process and advise you on what best thing to do next.

It's unusual for us to see cases on here where people have asked their MP to raise the case for them - tho not an unreasonable course of action - but can you say more about what happened? - the MP told you they were going to raise the case with SWR CEO - did they do that, and did they send you a reply with the answer from SWR that the MP received? - have you any evidence they actually did that is what I am asking, and what did SWR say in response to the MP if that was shared with you?

Was it a Penalty Fare that you were issued with? I fear the cheapest way to have resolved this was to have paid the Penalty Fare after the appeal failed and that would have cost £50 + price of new ticket - but you'd have needed to have come here for advice a the time to know that so water under the bridge now.

 

[furlong]

that would have cost £50 + price of new ticket

Not necessarily - this was JANUARY.

 

[WesternLancer]

Not necessarily - this was JANUARY.

Good point.

 

[12LDA28C]

Unfortunately, as you have found out, claiming 'it was an honest mistake' counts for little and someone who has deliberately bought a discounted ticket using an expired railcard would have claimed exactly the same. At the point your ticket and railcard were examined your railcard had expired which rendered your ticket invalid, mistake or otherwise. The ticket examiner would have heard a million excuses before from people trying to evade paying the correct fare.

 

[fandroid]

The "penalty fare" of £40 sounds odd, even for January, given the figures the OP has given for the fares he normally expects to pay for that journey. Best to see a copies of the letters from SWR

It's been said on here in many discussions of the Penalty Fare regulations that they are exactly designed for "Honest mistakes". ie a no-fault way of getting a sharp reminder to abide by the Railway Byelaws.

 

[Haywain]

I then received a Penalty Notice of £40

Did you receive this at the time you were stopped, or was it something came came later in the post. And who do you 'appeal' to? was it to South Western Railway or another body? This will help us to understand exactly what happened.

 

[Panky5555]

Hello,

My apologies, I have been digging out the correspondence from SWR, it was not £40, it was £140.

I genuinely don't know what I should be or am allowed to be sharing right now since this is now a court case? Will asking for advice here screw me over even more down the line?

Many thanks for the responses so far.

Kind regards,

 

[Haywain]

Unfortunately, what you received was not a "penalty notice" but an offer to settle the matter out of court. As SWR have stated, you are at liberty to go to court and see how you fare, but it is unlikely that doing so would cost you less than £140. I would advise paying that amount as soon as you can to prevent the matter escalating.

 

[30907]

Unfortunately, what you received was not a "penalty notice" but an offer to settle the matter out of court. As SWR have stated, you are at liberty to go to court and see how you fare, but it is unlikely that doing so would cost you less than £140. I would advise paying that amount as soon as you can to prevent the matter escalating.

Just to add that Penalty Fares are not commonly issued to people who use an expired railcard, and that Full single fare plus £100 is a typical offer.

 

[Panky5555]

Unfortunately, what you received was not a "penalty notice" but an offer to settle the matter out of court. As SWR have stated, you are at liberty to go to court and see how you fare, but it is unlikely that doing so would cost you less than £140. I would advise paying that amount as soon as you can to prevent the matter escalating.

I've never had a summons before, so I genuinely have no idea what I am now up against! Can I still even settle the original settlement or do I now have to go through with court?
I have Googled what could happen next, if I am either found guilty or I plead guilty, it would lead to a criminal record which could negatively effect any further career prospects. All over a genuine mistake! This is what I am now afraid of.

I have contacted citizens advice, now awaiting further correspondence from them.

Kind regards,

 

[AlterEgo]

So, you weren't issued a Penalty Fare but have been reported for prosecution for committing the offence of failing to show a valid ticket on request. This is a strict liability matter, like speeding, to which you have no legal defence in the circumstances. A revenue protection officer has a choice of either Penalty Faring you, or reporting you for prosecution, and will use their discretion in deciding which is more appropriate. We are finding that some companies are reporting, instead of Penalty Faring passengers, in instances where a railcard has expired. This is because a Penalty Fare is a one-and-done matter, but where railcards have expired there is the risk to the company that you have committed multiple offences, and therefore more outstanding fares might be collected by reporting up the chain for investigation.

You should pay the sum promptly and chalk it up to experience. Regrettably, as is evident from the correspondence, goodwill has evaporated, and to avoid being found guilty (which is a foregone conclusion), it is in your interests to settle up as soon as possible.

There are ways and means of handling this sort of matter but you were offered, what is, in practice, a settlement outside of court immediately. This is actually a good outcome for you though I appreciate it does not feel like it.

I note from SWR's correspondence that they appear to have withdrawn their offer of settlement but left it open to you to reconsider, to which you unwisely responded quite angrily. You're in a weak position here now and I urge you to email them in a more conciliatory tone to ask, once again, to settle the case.

Unfortunately it seems as though the matter has already escalated, as I have today received a magistrates court summons.

I've never had a summons before, so I genuinely have no idea what I am now up against! Can I still even settle the original settlement or do I now have to go through with court?
I have Googled what could happen next, if I am either found guilty or I plead guilty, it would lead to a criminal record which could negatively effect any further career prospects. All over a genuine mistake! This is what I am now afraid of.

I have contacted citizens advice, now awaiting further correspondence from them.

Kind regards,

Cross-posted.

You need to email SWR's prosecutions team urgently and ask them not to continue the prosecution, and settle the matter.

 

[Panky5555]

So, you weren't issued a Penalty Fare but have been reported for prosecution for committing the offence of failing to show a valid ticket on request. This is a strict liability matter, like speeding, to which you have no legal defence in the circumstances. A revenue protection officer has a choice of either Penalty Faring you, or reporting you for prosecution, and will use their discretion in deciding which is more appropriate. We are finding that some companies are reporting, instead of Penalty Faring passengers, in instances where a railcard has expired. This is because a Penalty Fare is a one-and-done matter, but where railcards have expired there is the risk to the company that you have committed multiple offences, and therefore more outstanding fares might be collected by reporting up the chain for investigation.

You should pay the sum promptly and chalk it up to experience. Regrettably, as is evident from the correspondence, goodwill has evaporated, and to avoid being found guilty (which is a foregone conclusion), it is in your interests to settle up as soon as possible.

There are ways and means of handling this sort of matter but you were offered, what is, in practice, a settlement outside of court immediately. This is actually a good outcome for you though I appreciate it does not feel like it.

I note from SWR's correspondence that they appear to have withdrawn their offer of settlement but left it open to you to reconsider, to which you unwisely responded quite angrily. You're in a weak position here now and I urge you to email them in a more conciliatory tone to ask, once again, to settle the case.


Cross-posted.

You need to email SWR's prosecutions team urgently and ask them not to continue the prosecution, and settle the matter.

Is it now not too late to request the settlement?

 

[AlterEgo]

Is it now not too late to request the settlement?

No, you can still try to settle up until the court date. But you should act with urgency.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Do what @AlterEgo says, PDQ. It doesn’t matter how unfair you or I or anyone else think the amount is. It is what it is.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello,

My apologies, I have been digging out the correspondence from SWR, it was not £40, it was £140.

See attached the original penalty notice, followed by the court summons, followed by the correspondence between myself and the Prosecutions team.
*I deleted the court summons as I don't want to get in more trouble for sharing things I'm not allowed to share publicly*

I was waiting for further correspondence, not a court hearing with the potential of a criminal record.

My "now" worry is the fact of facing criminal charges leading to further issues over the financial sum of the incident.

I genuinely don't know what I should be or am allowed to be sharing right now since this is now a court case? Will asking for advice here screw me over even more down the line?

Many thanks for the responses so far.

Kind regards,

So this looks like you travelled with an out of date Veterans Railcard by mistake - the railway offered to settle the matter for the sort of sum we typically see settlements being offered, but you tried to argue with them to reduce the sum as you felt it was unfair (what you are calling an 'appeal'), but they decided not to do that.

It does not look like you were issued with a Penalty Fare and engaged with the Independent Penalty Fares Appeal service.

You have also tried to get your MP to appeal to SWR's better nature. You have not (yet?) posted what the outcome of that was but I assume nothing that resolved it..

If it's possible to still pay the sum demanded I think I would pay it to end the matter. If that creates financial hardship maybe the Royal British Legion could help if you contacted their welfare section.

I would add that you have my sympathy with this as you are someone who has served their country and deserves to be treated with the respect that is due for that.

But I fear the railway takes the view that they do not let other people off errors relating to expired railcards, so they can't do this in the case of the veterans railcard as they must treat everyone in similar terms. Sadly the Railway considers tickets with expired Railcards as having no validity at all - hence the sums demanded.
.

 

[furlong]

You've taken down the summons, but can you (or someone who did see it) confirm what the charge on it is? (If Alter Ego saw it, there's no such offence as failing to show a valid ticket on request. If it used those words it should have been in the context of a particular law.)

 

[Panky5555]

You've taken down the summons, but can you (or someone who did see it) confirm what the charge on it is? (If Alter Ego saw it, there's no such offence as failing to show a valid ticket on request. If it used those words it should have been in the context of a particular law.)

]

So this looks like you travelled with an out of date Veterans Railcard by mistake - the railway offered to settle the matter for the sort of sum we typically see settlements being offered, but you tried to argue with them to reduce the sum as you felt it was unfair (what you are calling an 'appeal'), but they decided not to do that.

It does not look like you were issued with a Penalty Fare and engaged with the Independent Penalty Fares Appeal service.

You have also tried to get your MP to appeal to SWR's better nature. You have not (yet?) posted what the outcome of that was but I assume nothing that resolved it..

If it's possible to still pay the sum demanded I think I would pay it to end the matter. If that creates financial hardship maybe the Royal British Legion could help if you contacted their welfare section.

I would add that you have my sympathy with this as you are someone who has served their country and deserves to be treated with the respect that is due for that.

But I fear the railway takes the view that they do not let other people off errors relating to expired railcards, so they can't do this in the case of the veterans railcard as they must treat everyone in similar terms. Sadly the Railway considers tickets with expired Railcards as having no validity at all - hence the sums demanded.
.

Thank you for your response.

Sadly I did not receive the correspondence back from the MP, but have followed up the email today requesting details.

 

[WesternLancer]

Sadly I did not receive the correspondence back from the MP, but have followed up the email today requesting details.

Probably best that you don't wait on it to change the outcome of things (if the railway have dug their heals in they will tell the MP that the Dept for Transport requires them to take a tough line on fare errors and have tried to offer the best they can to you) - but it may be that the MP gets something out of them in the end - I'd say let that play out separately as important that you focus on preventing the court action if at all possible.

 

[fandroid]

It's a charge under the Regulation of Railways Act and it mentions "with intent".

Others, hopefully with a legal background, should be able to advise on this. Meanwhile the OP might seek out legal advice. There may be help available via Veterans organisations

 

[AlterEgo]

I didn't see the summons and am surprised to see they mention RoRA - that doesn't seem to be made out, although I wonder if the OP's refusal to pay the fare after the fact in protracted correspondence may have contributed to their decision?

 

[Panky5555]

Probably best that you don't wait on it to change the outcome of things (if the railway have dug their heals in they will tell the MP that the Dept for Transport requires them to take a tough line on fare errors and have tried to offer the best they can to you) - but it may be that the MP gets something out of them in the end - I'd say let that play out separately as important that you focus on preventing the court action if at all possible.

My attempt at requesting to settle outside of court... I thought I'd come here for advice before I click send.
Honestly, i feel sick to my stomach right now!

"Good evening,

I hope you are well.

I have not been contacted since our last correspondence in March.

I am still unsure how the entire process of the penalty fee works which is why I have been waiting for a response from someone regarding my appeal.

I assumed we were still speaking on terms of my appeal, but i have just received a letter of Court Summons? As stated in previous emails, I have accepted the penalty and will pay the fine as such. My appeal was not the fact that my railcard was out of date, my appeal was that i felt the amount that the penalty that I recieved felt unfair.
I would much prefer to settle the matter outside of court if at all possible, i was just unaware of how the entire process works and did not realise it would go this far.

Can I look at paying the penalty rather than going ahead with court and wasting everyone's time. I apologise for wasting not only your time but the time of anyone that has been involved with this matter.

Many thanks,"

My attempt at requesting to settle outside of court... I thought I'd come here for advice before I click send.
Honestly, i feel sick to my stomach right now!

"Good evening,

I have not been contacted since our last correspondence in March.

I am still unsure how the entire process of the penalty fee works which is why I have been waiting for a response from someone regarding my appeal.

I assumed we were still speaking on terms of my appeal, but i have just received a letter of Court Summons? I would much prefer to settle the matter outside of court if at all possible, i was just unaware of how the entire process works and did not realise it would go this far this fast.

Can I look at paying the penalty rather than going ahead with court?

Many thanks,"

What would happen if I went ahead and paid the original £140 stated in the original letter? Would that close the case or would everything still continue?

 

[furlong]

Is this the part you were questioning?

Yes. It's unusual in alleging that you committed the offence whilst within Waterloo station rather than earlier, so presumably they'll be wanting to rely on something you said or something that they observed to give them the necessary evidence of momentary intent not to pay the complete fare. I doubt that merely being unaware that a railcard had expired would be sufficient on its own. There should be some more information along with the summons (usually underneath the part you've showed us) that outlines why they believe you intended not to pay.

 

[Panky5555]

Yes. It's unusual in alleging that you committed the offence whilst within Waterloo station rather than earlier, so presumably they'll be wanting to rely on something you said or something that they observed to give them the necessary evidence of momentary intent not to pay the complete fare. I doubt that merely being unaware that a railcard had expired would be sufficient on its own. There should be some more information along with the summons (usually underneath the part you've showed us) that outlines why they believe you intended not to pay.

.

 

[furlong]

I technically had committed the offence as I had travelled to Waterloo.

They are alleging that you INTENDED not to pay the correct fare for your journey. You told us that you hadn't realised your railcard had expired. There is a gap between those two positions. In law, your intention not to pay the correct fare only needs to be "momentary" but they must think they have some evidence to prove this beyond reasonable doubt, otherwise they're wasting their time prosecuting this offence. (There are other offences they could have prosecuted you for which don't require explicit evidence of intent, but they haven't chosen to use one of those.)

 

[AlterEgo]

OP: were you placed under caution or asked any questions at the time of the stop?

 

[Panky5555]

They are alleging that you INTENDED not to pay the correct fare for your journey. You told us that you hadn't realised your railcard had expired. There is a gap between those two positions. In law, your intention not to pay the correct fare only needs to be "momentary" but they must think they have some evidence to prove this beyond reasonable doubt, otherwise they're wasting their time prosecuting this offence. (There are other offences they could have prosecuted you for which don't require explicit evidence of intent, but they haven't chosen to use one of those.)

I had not realised, my ticket did not work at the barrier, the officer asked for my railcard, so I complied and gave up all information that was asked of me. This is where both I and the officer found out that my railcard was expired.

OP: were you placed under caution or asked any questions at the time of the stop?

No, I just did as I was told throughout, thinking that I would be given a warning. He asked me a load of personal questions, name, address etc. I complied, which is when I was told that this was not a warning, but a fine. I requested to know the fine where he refused to tell me, so I did not know what was happening until the letter came through the door.

 

[Haywain]

They are alleging that you INTENDED not to pay the correct fare for your journey. You told us that you hadn't realised your railcard had expired. There is a gap between those two positions. In law, your intention not to pay the correct fare only needs to be "momentary" but they must think they have some evidence to prove this beyond reasonable doubt, otherwise they're wasting their time prosecuting this offence. (There are other offences they could have prosecuted you for which don't require explicit evidence of intent, but they haven't chosen to use one of those.)

You make some potentially valid points, which could be contested in court but on a purely financial level I still believe the OP would be best seeking to pay the settlement should SWR choose to accept it.