Expired railcard

[ssan]

If the Inspector concerned chooses to do so.

However, since the regulations were made, train companies have realised that railcard misuse (out of date/non existent) is common and that they can investigate many people's behaviour online, so uncovering repeated offences (and recovering a considerable amount of public money), and they increasingly instruct staff to take that option.
They can also easily follow up the "left railcard at home" issue (which is allowable once a year) as part of the process.

How can we determine that racial discrimination did not play a role when the inspector made their decision?

 

[John R]

How can we determine that racial discrimination did not play a role when the inspector made their decision?

Shouldn't the question be, "how can we determine that racial discrimination did play a role..."?

From what we have heard, the decision not to impose a penalty fare but to refer for further investigation is perfectly commonplace in such a situation. So I'd suggest the onus is on you to explain why you think racial discrimination was a contributory factor.

 

[ssan]

Shouldn't the question be, "how can we determine that racial discrimination did play a role..."?

From what we have heard, the decision not to impose a penalty fare but to refer for further investigation is perfectly commonplace in such a situation. So I'd suggest the onus is on you to explain why you think racial discrimination was a contributory factor.

I’ve seen white passengers get let off after updating their expired Railcard right there in front of the ticket inspector. A few months ago, when I was travelling with a white friend, the inspector only asked me to show my Railcard and didn’t ask her for hers, even though we were on the same trip and both used a 26-30 Railcard to buy our tickets.

 

[RHolmes]

According to Northern's website (https://northernrail.my.site.com/s/article/Penalty-Fares), in what circumstances do you think one could be issued a Penalty Fare for being unable to produce an appropriate Railcard for a discounted ticket?

I’m not a revenue officer, but I am a conductor and my opinion here would be in circumstances where the passenger has a valid railcard, but is unable to physically access or show it.

This could be for example if their phone has died and it’s stored on an app, or they have proof of purchase such as a receipt to their email account but physically don’t have the card on their person (forgotten railcard policy), or they have screen shot of the railcard but not the railcard itself.

However, there is no automatic right to be charged a penalty fare, you could still receive a TIR in the above circumstances

 

[AlterEgo]

How can we determine that racial discrimination did not play a role when the inspector made their decision?

You can’t, unless you can read the desires of men by telepathy.

What I would gently say is that this happens all the time - getting written up for an expired railcard happens to a *lot* of people. Unless at the time it seems clear the same inspector treated someone else totally differently, I am not sure we can read much into their intent, although I am sure some unconscious bias may exist on the railway in some form.

I have a Disabled Railcard and am rarely asked to produce it, and I am white, male and in my 30s.

 

[ssan]

You can’t, unless you can read the desires of men by telepathy.

What I would gently say is that this happens all the time - getting written up for an expired railcard happens to a *lot* of people. Unless at the time it seems clear the same inspector treated someone else totally differently, I am not sure we can read much into their intent, although I am sure some unconscious bias may exist on the railway in some form.

I have a Disabled Railcard and am rarely asked to produce it, and I am white, male and in my 30s.

My white friends tell me they are rarely asked to show their Railcard, while my Chinese friends and I are frequently asked to produce our Railcard, no matter which route we are on.

 

[Haywain]

some unconscious bias may exist on the railway in some form.

It exists everywhere, and on both sides of that coin.

 

[Peakrider]

Hello,

I travelled on Northern from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly with an expired 26-30 railcard. I was not aware of this until the inspector pointed it out. As soon as I got off the international flight, I bought a train ticket to travel from the airport to the city centre without noticing that my railcard had expired two weeks earlier when I was away from the UK. I renewed my railcard immediately on the spot and presented the updated and valid railcard to the staff member on the spot. The staff member took my details and assured me with a smile that it would not result in a fine.

Then I got a letter and communicated with DRPU to explain my situation. Unfortunately, I ended up with a fixed penalty notice, with a fine of £106.50. I found it unfair and wanted to appeal. However, the Penalty Services website states that TIR or MG notices cannot be accepted. My case is a TIR.

Do you have any idea how I can appeal in this case?

Thank you.

As someone who does not work for the railway, when I first read this I thought you had a good case and were treated unfairly, but on reflection isn't this the same as not having a ticket and quickly buying one in front of the inspector? To the lay person perhaps not, but under the railway rules it is. Yes it hurts paying a penalty but best to balance this against getting an actual record....

 

[AF91]

Excuse my English. To be exact, the inspector said "no charge, just a report." Do you think this is lying? Do you think this is reasonable in the working process?


Don’t I have any right to appeal this at all?

That's not what you said had been said to you previously. "No charge, just a report" is just him saying that there was nothing to pay there and then. He's made his report and it's resulted in action been taken.

Personally I'd follow the advice that has been previously given and pay the amount currently offered by the rail company. You didn't have a valid ticket on the basis of the expired railcard. The fact that you purchased a new railcard upon being challenged would not suddenly valiate the ticket or everyone could purchase tickets with railcard discounts and only purchase a railcard if their tickets get checked on route. As a few people have hinted, an appeal would be highly likely to be unsuccessful and could result in you ending up with a far higher sum to pay and a criminal record.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Personally I'd follow the advice that has been previously given and pay the amount currently offered by the rail company.

@ssan. Just a reminder that you're now 7 days into the 14 days that Northern have given you to respond or pay.

 

[BongoStar]

How can we determine that racial discrimination did not play a role when the inspector made their decision?

Hypothetically, even if you assume it did play a role and was the sole reason, the underlying facts don't change. You travelled without a valid railcard and have been issued a penalty.

The correct process to investigate discrimination concern would be by raising a formal complaint and providing evidence there. It is totally unrelated to the PF.

If indeed you are right, not only can you claim back the cost of PF paid but a lot more in distress etc.

 

[30907]

I’ve seen white passengers get let off after updating their expired Railcard right there in front of the ticket inspector.

That's called showing discretion (or avoiding confrontation?), but unless on the same occasion they treated a non-white person differently it proves nothing about your incident.
(You may be aware that there is a recent thread here discussing a situation where there is apparent evidence of discrimination.)

A few months ago, when I was travelling with a white friend, the inspector only asked me to show my Railcard and didn’t ask her for hers, even though we were on the same trip and both used a 26-30 Railcard to buy our tickets.

Not unusual - it happens when my wife and I travel (on our Senior Railcards), and we are both White British. (It used to be quite rare to have to show them at all, but train companies have tightened up a bit.)

 

[Tevion539]

If I may interject as a conductor. I follow similar sentiments already shared. If someone's railcard has expired by a day, or two, typically I'd let it go and remind them to renew.

If, however it's long expires I would report the ticket for investigation. If someone buys a ticket on Trainline and it says "Show Railcard" I don't typically ask for this unless they are travelling in a group with multiple tickets on one phone with a railcard attached.

I'll also show discretion to those that give credible excuses, but remind them that the next interaction won't be so lenient. I do however try to remain consistent in my approach with each train, if I've dealt with someone by the book, I'd do the same with the rest of the passengers in the same situation. I.e. checking railcards where I normally wouldn't.

In the cases that people forget their rail cards, I will report a ticket for not having a railcard present so these can be checked by the fraud investigations department of my TOC.

I also think the attitude test plays a big part in situations like this. I'm far less lenient with people who tend to show aggression or a bad attitude towards the advice I try to give.

I believe it's best to chalk this up to experience and move on, or take it to court, where you will almost certainly have higher costs and be worse off.

 

[Falcon1200]

My white friends tell me they are rarely asked to show their Railcard

I was on a train on Tuesday on which the Guard was most assiduous in asking every applicable passenger to produce their Railcard, even harmless-looking little old white ladies who took an age to find it in their handbag.

 

[jumble]

The train ticket from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly only cost £1.70, and even if I hadn't bought a ticket, the fine would only have been £50. I renewed my railcard on the spot and purchased a train ticket. I didn't gain any advantage, yet I am being fined £106.50.

You cannot assume this. It only applies if the inspector was able and decided to resolve via a penalty fare and there is no guarantee they would have done so.

I’ve seen white passengers get let off after updating their expired Railcard right there in front of the ticket inspector. A few months ago, when I was travelling with a white friend, the inspector only asked me to show my Railcard and didn’t ask her for hers, even though we were on the same trip and both used a 26-30 Railcard to buy our tickets.

Do you know if the inspector who let white people off also lets non white people off?
Because if you don't your observation is interesting but irrelevant.

Perhaps the inspector perceived you to look older than 30 or was suspicious of your body language

 

[Twicklatic]

The train ticket from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly only cost £1.70, and even if I hadn't bought a ticket, the fine would only have been £50. I renewed my railcard on the spot and purchased a train ticket. I didn't gain any advantage, yet I am being fined £106.50.

I'm puzzled by "I renewed my railcard on the spot and purchased a train ticket". Did you buy another ticket after renewing your railcard?

 

[Haywain]

The train ticket from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly only cost £1.70, and even if I hadn't bought a ticket, the fine would only have been £50. I renewed my railcard on the spot and purchased a train ticket. I didn't gain any advantage, yet I am being fined £106.50.

But the train company will regard your purchase of a new railcard at that stage as evidence that you wouldn’t have done so without the check taking place.

 

[40875704]

Perhaps I am too cynical in my assumption ie there would be consequences. However if their purpose was putting it on file, no further action at this time then I do not think it unreasonable for the Inspector to say that. Though of course the Inspector might not know this has happened previously.

The more I think about it the more I see why the Inspectors do what they do and why they do it. I come back to an earlier point that the rail fares system needs simplifying to reduce the incidence of honest mistakes.

Are you suggesting that such a simplification would include doing away with railcards and perhaps spreading the savings made by railcard holders across all tickets? Other wise I fail to see how simplifying the fares system helps prevent the “honest” mistake of failing to renew a railcard.

 

[Titfield]

Are you suggesting that such a simplification would include doing away with railcards and perhaps spreading the savings made by railcard holders across all tickets? Other wise I fail to see how simplifying the fares system helps prevent the “honest” mistake of failing to renew a railcard.

I am not suggesting that railcards should be abolished but just making the point that if railcards as a product did not exist then the issues we see on here (expired railcard / wrong railcard / did not know that a railcard fare meant I had to hold a railcard etc) would not arise.

 

[Haywain]

if railcards as a product did not exist then the issues we see on here (expired railcard / wrong railcard / did not know that a railcard fare meant I had to hold a railcard etc) would not arise.

The same can be argued with tickets - if they didn't exist there would be no problems.

 

[Titfield]

The same can be argued with tickets - if they didn't exist there would be no problems.

True. If only we could be like Luxembourg.

 

[Wallsendmag]

True. If only we could be like Luxembourg.

You are aware of the size of Luxemburg aren't you?

 

[Titfield]

You are aware of the size of Luxemburg aren't you?

Yes absolutely. It would be an interesting experiment though to say take the Isle of Wight and make all public transport free and gauge the effects.