Expired Railcards

[Mick Evans]

It's great having a Railcard on your phone. But what happens when it expires?
If I have an out of date credit card, Costco card or any other card that saves money I wouldn't be able to use it. Why are you still allowed to use an expired Railcard?
My daughter used hers to buy a ticket and it wasn't an issue. She arrived at Waterloo station to be told it had expired. We have received NO fixed penalty notice. We have today received a letter stating she has being prosecuted and can pay £501.30 plus £235.05 costs or we can go to court. She is a student and made a genuine mistake. If we had received a penalty notice I would have paid it. But to get a letter saying pay £736 is just robbery.
Any advice.

 

[EZJ]

I'm no expert and more informed people will help but I'm guessing they have gone through her purchase history and are asking for full fares for all the journeys she used the expired card on.

 

[spag23]

Welcome to the forum.
Others will be along in a minute.
The issue is that it's wholly the holder's responsibility to ensure that they possess an in-date card when applying that card's discount.
There have been long debates on this forum about why the sellers can't flag an expired card, or require the purchaser to enter their expiry date on each purchase. But it is what it is, regardless of how unfair it seems to many (including me).
And the Company are entitled to regard any tickets bought when wrongly claiming a discount as totally invalid, ie they won't even credit their price against the full price tickets they now want paid.
Aside from the expert advice coming soon, ensure that your daughter buys a new card asap. And note its expiry date where it will reliably remind the holder.

 

[James H]

Why are you still allowed to use an expired Railcard?

When you buy a ticket using a railcard, it is your responsibility to ensure have a valid railcard at the time of travel.

This didn't used to be an issue when most ticket purchases were face to face, as you'd have to show the railcard to the booking clerk so it would be much easier to keep tabs on expiry dates.

Could/should ticket apps and sites include more prompts to ensure a railcard is in date? Yes, probably.

But it's a side effect of a system where there are multiple retailers and channels for both railcard and ticket purchases, which is on the whole a good thing.

 

[Gloster]

I am NOT an expert either, but would tend to agree with EZJ. How long had she been continuing to purchase tickets at the reduced rate after the card had expired and how many journeys did she make?

It sounds as though the £736.35 is an offer of an out of court settlement and if she accepts it and pays she avoids being prosecuted and any form of ’criminal’ record. It should be pointed out that the railway normally charges the full Anytime Single fare for each and every journey made without a valid ticket: a reduced fare ticket without an accompanying valid, in-date railcard is regarded as of no value at all. This all seems to be accepted by the judicial system.

I repeat that I am not one of the forum’s experts.

 

[jfollows]

It's great having a Railcard on your phone. But what happens when it expires?
If I have an out of date credit card, Costco card or any other card that saves money I wouldn't be able to use it. Why are you still allowed to use an expired Railcard?
My daughter used hers to buy a ticket and it wasn't an issue. She arrived at Waterloo station to be told it had expired. We have received NO fixed penalty notice. We have today received a letter stating she has being prosecuted and can pay £501.30 plus £235.05 costs or we can go to court. She is a student and made a genuine mistake. If we had received a penalty notice I would have paid it. But to get a letter saying pay £736 is just robbery.
Any advice.

You're not allowed to use an expired railcard, but the process when buying a ticket is that you state which type of railcard you hold and you get a discount. You are then required to show a valid railcard at the time of travel.
These are different times, and that's how it works. I don't need to have a valid railcard to buy a ticket today as long as I have one with me when I make a future journey (NB I should note that this is the reality of the way this works, the railcard terms and conditions technically make it a potential requirement to show the railcard at the time of purchase, but on-line retailers don't implement anything to enforce this; it'd probably be quite hard for them to do).

In the past it was simpler, but that's because people bought rail tickets at stations, presented their railcard at the time of purchase and invariably travelled immediately. Advance tickets have changed this for many, of course.

 

[Drapes]

Your daughter would have received an email alerting her to the rail card soon to be expiring.

Anyone can use rail cards. you don’t need to prove you have one to buy tickets ( online or at tvm’s ) Your daughter probably has it selected in her filters when purchasing tickets.

As for how they came to that total. Every ticket purchased after her rail card expired wasn’t valid. Therefore They’ve audited her travel history and applied an anytime single price for each journey made. Unfortunately they’ve got her banged to rights

 

[James H]

Your daughter would have received an email alerting her to the rail card soon to be expiring.

Not necessarily

 

[MotCO]

For the forums experts to give advice, please can you upload a copy of the letter you have received with any personal details obscured.

 

[Buzby]

As you don’t need to show a Railcard when purchasing online, it is taken on trust, the tickets are discounted and sold on that basis. When it comes to use, at an (inevitable) check you are asked to exhibit it. Now I dislike the digital variants for a variety of reasons I’ll not go into here, but my physical card has a prominent date of expiry emblazoned across it, and I get a reminder by email telling me my 3 years are up and buy another.

The digital card obviously has an expiry date too, and whilst the retailers are known to send reminders, the obligation remains with the customer to ensure it is in date when used. When it expires it doesn’t vanish - but any tickets bought with it and unused are invalid (unless a renewal is purchased before departure). Unlike your expired Costco card where you are permitted to renew your 12 month’s membership at the till (as it is flagged at the checkout), rail journeys have a more draconian set of rules and it is treated as fraudulent travel. How did she ‘buy her ticket’ ? If it was shown at one of the decreasing ticket offices the discounted fare would not be allowed unless she bought a renewal at the same time. An online purchase just required a declaration of its existence - not the physical or digital card Itself.

Was there no expiry warning from the app or original vendor? This may be useful in mitigation……

 

[Drapes]

‘ If you gave us your email address when you first purchased your Railcard, we’ll send you a reminder to let you know your Railcard is about to expire’

Her rail card is digital so very likely she received an alert. When mine was due to expire I received one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The use of the word "costs" in that manner together with such a precise sum (the railway tends to use £100 or £120 for administrative costs in settlements, or whole multiples thereof) sounds like she has already been convicted, perhaps having ignored other communications, or perhaps not having received them. If she was genuinely not aware, then it may be possible to have the case heard again in her presence, but not if the letters were received but simply ignored.

I think we need to see the letter (with any personal details and reference numbers obscured) to be sure of what has happened.

Also I would recommend changing your username in case your name gives away to the TOC that you are discussing the matter here. An admin can do that, the easiest way to get in contact is probably to report your own post and explain in there, as you can't private message as a new user.

 

[James H]

Her rail card is digital so very likely she received an alert. When mine was due to expire I received one.

Remember there are now multiple vendors of digital railcards - they're not all sold via the main RDG website / apps

 

[yorkie]

It's great having a Railcard on your phone. But what happens when it expires?
If I have an out of date credit card, Costco card or any other card that saves money I wouldn't be able to use it. Why are you still allowed to use an expired Railcard?

You aren't; if you (or anyone else) would like to propose any potential system/method of detecting out of date Railcars prior to travel, this would require a new thread in the Speculative Discussion section.

My daughter used hers to buy a ticket and it wasn't an issue. She arrived at Waterloo station to be told it had expired. We have received NO fixed penalty notice. We have today received a letter stating she has being prosecuted and can pay £501.30 plus £235.05 costs or we can go to court. She is a student and made a genuine mistake. If we had received a penalty notice I would have paid it. But to get a letter saying pay £736 is just robbery.
Any advice.

Unfortunately if the matter cannot be settled out of court, the railway company doesn't have to prove any intent as it's a strict liability matter. Alternatively they can go for harsher legislation which would require intent. Without knowing for sure which legislation they may wish to use, it's difficult to be sure.

Whether or not train companies should have these powers is an entirely different debate, belongs elsewhere and indeed we have had threads on it before.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2023 ==

Also I would recommend changing your username in case your name gives away to the TOC that you are discussing the matter here. An admin can do that, the easiest way to get in contact is probably to report your own post and explain in there, as you can't private message as a new user.

It's not going to make any difference in this case and the original poster is not the defendant. If anyone wishes to change username for privacy reason this should not be discussed on the forum; the person simply needs to contact us directly using the contact form.

 

[Mick Evans]

I'm no expert and more informed people will help but I'm guessing they have gone through her purchase history and are asking for full fares for all the journeys she used the expired card on.

Only used the Railcard once out of date and she got caught out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only used the Railcard once out of date and she got caught out.

That seems an excessive settlement, then. They must think she used it more than once. Though you'd not have to do many Manchester-London trips to rack that up at Anytime rate.

Please do post the letter and we can be sure.

 

[EZJ]

Only used the Railcard once out of date and she got caught out.

Well I'm a bit puzzled, I've never seen a settlement request that large for a single use of an expired railcard. I would suggest double checking with your daughter if it was only on one occasion, I would also go through her train line account with her to make sure as well, I would then be asking the train company how they have come to this figure because for a request that large they must think this has happened more than once.

 

[Gloster]

Just to make something clear: after someone has been stopped once the railway will examine that person’s account and make their decision as to how to proceed based on the total number of times they believe the traveller to have been in infraction, even if she was not stopped on any previous occasion. They can decide whether or not to proceed direct to court or to offer an out-of-court settlement, and in the latter case how much they will request. It is standard practice, and quite legal, for the railway to investigate the account of anyone stopped in infraction of the rules in this way.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Remember also that the check through her buying history could go back several years; could there have been use after expiry of previous railcards, not just the most recent one?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Remember also that the check through her buying history could go back several years; could there have been use after expiry of previous railcards, not just the most recent one?

Is it possible that the TOC investigation team has not realised that the OP's daughter previously had a (now expired) railcard, and so is additionally claiming for tickets purchased / journeys made, using what were validly discounted tickets?

 

[pedr]

I don't think anyone has said this clearly in this thread, and the figures quoted are confusing so: it is a crime to board a train without a valid ticket*, and a railcard-discounted ticket is only valid if accompanied by an in-date railcard. Some people who post here (including me!) think that's an inappropriate law, but that's of no practical relevance. The absence of a reminder, the somewhat poor integration between railcards and ticket-purchasing apps, or general disagreements about what the law ought to be don't change this. It is a strict liability offence; doing this accidentally or carelessly is just as much an offence as doing it knowingly.

Usually a train company will write to people discovered to be travelling with invalid tickets to ask for an explanation. Where a railcard has expired it is rational for a train company to do this rather than to issue a penalty fare immediately, as they can't tell how many invalid tickets have been used without some additional investigation, and many people have been using out-of-date railcards for many journeys before they are detected.

The figures cited seem more in line with the fines, charges, and compensation ordered by a court following a conviction for a ticketing crime than the amounts train companies ask as 'out of court settlements' instead of prosecuting the crimes. Posting a redacted copy of the correspondence received will help experts here to provide some advice.

[* circumstances where there are no ticket-selling facilities at the origin station etc can probably be discounted here!]

 

[Mick Evans]

So it looks like my daughter made 8 trips with her expired travel card. Not sure how she is going to pay the fine but being convicted in a court will ruin her career before it even starts. Absolutely fuming with her.

 

[Watershed]

So it looks like my daughter made 8 trips with her expired travel card. Not sure how she is going to pay the fine but being convicted in a court will ruin her career before it even starts. Absolutely fuming with her.

That certainly puts the figure into perspective. Whilst it's arguably more than is reasonable (it will likely consist of an undiscounted Anytime ticket for each journey made, as if no Railcard had been held at all), it's likely a "take it or leave it" offer.

 

[spag23]

It would be nice if the TOCs calculated the loss incurred as being the pro rata price of the missing Railcard validity. They could even multiply this by a factor of, say, four, to create an element of deterrence.
But for some reason they prefer to charge large sums, like the current case's £736.

 

[Snow1964]

So it looks like my daughter made 8 trips with her expired travel card. Not sure how she is going to pay the fine but being convicted in a court will ruin her career before it even starts. Absolutely fuming with her.

Unfortunately this is another disadvantage of buying tickets through an app, they get logged and not erased. If the 8 trips had been made buying the tickets at a station (ticket office or machine) then penalty would only have based on cost of journey where she got caught. Use of an app has effectively gifted then info on other journeys since card expired.

It is a very unfair world that the railway allows itself not to check the tickets for 7 previous journeys at the time of the journey, to stop the error being repeated, but then retrospectively includes them.

 

[Gloster]

Just a point: a fine is what is imposed by a court. Money requested by the railway company as an alternative to going to court is an out-of-court settlement. It is important that the experts, of which I am NOT one, know which situation you are dealing with at the moment. (I hope that I haven’t missed the answer in the posts above.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just a point: a fine is what is imposed by a court. Money requested by the railway company as an alternative to going to court is an out-of-court settlement. It is important that the experts, of which I am NOT one, know which situation you are dealing with at the moment. (I hope that I haven’t missed the answer in the posts above.)

This seems unclear to me too; we need to see the letter.

 

[AndroidBango]

If the tickets were bought with a card, if bought at a ticket office or machine wouldn't the TOC still be able to check prior purchases quite easily?

 

[Mick Evans]

The use of the word "costs" in that manner together with such a precise sum (the railway tends to use £100 or £120 for administrative costs in settlements, or whole multiples thereof) sounds like she has already been convicted, perhaps having ignored other communications, or perhaps not having received them. If she was genuinely not aware, then it may be possible to have the case heard again in her presence, but not if the letters were received but simply ignored.

I think we need to see the letter (with any personal details and reference numbers obscured) to be sure of what has happened.

Also I would recommend changing your username in case your name gives away to the TOC that you are discussing the matter here. An admin can do that, the easiest way to get in contact is probably to report your own post and explain in there, as you can't private message as a new user.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2023 ==

The use of the word "costs" in that manner together with such a precise sum (the railway tends to use £100 or £120 for administrative costs in settlements, or whole multiples thereof) sounds like she has already been convicted, perhaps having ignored other communications, or perhaps not having received them. If she was genuinely not aware, then it may be possible to have the case heard again in her presence, but not if the letters were received but simply ignored.

I think we need to see the letter (with any personal details and reference numbers obscured) to be sure of what has happened.

Also I would recommend changing your username in case your name gives away to the TOC that you are discussing the matter here. An admin can do that, the easiest way to get in contact is probably to report your own post and explain in there, as you can't private message as a new user.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2023 ==

This seems unclear to me too; we need to see the letter.

Posted the letter.

 

[jfollows]

So it looks like my daughter made 8 trips with her expired travel card. Not sure how she is going to pay the fine but being convicted in a court will ruin her career before it even starts. Absolutely fuming with her.

So it's an out-of-court settlement offer which will avoid court and a criminal record.

On completion of payment, this matter will be closed.