Express Bus Service - A Missing Gap?

[AlastairFraser]

Thinking of Hampshire. There is not a service between Andover and Southampton. The service to Winchester is quite limited. Not much runs from Newbury to the west I have noticed.

That's because the Kennet Valley along which the train runs is the main transport artery and settlement area. Due to the North Wessex Downs AONB surrounding most of the Valley, there is not much development in the area. Andover to Southampton is not insurmountable changing at Basingstoke, with the frequent service between Basingstoke and Southampton/Winchester.

 

[markymark2000]

In my area it is getting closer to £140k, and that for a 7-19 Mo-Sa service. Start running in the evening, and on Sundays, (which surely a 'fully integrated' service as envisaged by #63 would be?), and that figure will not be far off £200k.

If we go off your figures, I guess a lot of firms are about to go under then as the vast majority of tenders for Mon-Sun inc Eves services do not hit that figure. Tenders in Merseyside, you could be looking anywhere between 80-110k per bus for a Mon-Sat service. Bearing in mind, firms are making profit off that as well. It's difficult to find a figure for Mon-Sun in Eves because so few services do that sort of thing or where they do, it's part of a group tender. The closest that I could find was £200k which was 1 bus Mon-Fri all day and 1 bus Mon-Sun all day.


There are a lot of variables of course depending on the operator but 200k I would say is at the very extreme end of things. It's significantly lower in most cases when putting in for contracts and even lower again for a break even (while break even isn't good longer term, hitting the break even point is the achievement for the service which many operators look at and focus on profit later.

Stagecoach became more tolerant of risk taking when someone asked out loud, why won't anyone try anything new - the response 'because we'll get the sack if it goes wrong' marked a change in attitudes at the top of the business in the early 2000s.

I think Stagecoach went back to this style of working in some areas and are now on some kind of killing spree like Arriva in some areas. Taking busy express routes and sending them around the houses to reduce PVR completely missing the point of why people used the express bus.
When they take a risk, often it's then followed by dismal promotion, chop and change and/or pie in the sky ideas and then winging that they didn't get enough passengers and got their fingers burnt so won't try anything else again. (Widnes X5 is a key example of where they tried and messed it up so badly that a route which people should have used, no one used because it was unreliable, kept changing routes and no one knew whether they were coming or going).

The issue with the idea of using buses from school contracts is the peak flow that you would seek to capture between Reading and High Wycombe would be commuters travelling around the time.

That's where schools and councils and places of education should stop their obsession with 'dedicated transport' and start working with operators to put kids on normal service routes. Guaranteed usage from day 1 is a good start plus it means that a 70 seater bus can be filled with 60 students plus have 10 spaces available for normal people (or more spaces for normal people if they only go a short way). This is the key to it, merge schools and service, not having them separate. There are plenty examples of it where it could provide huge boosts to passengers. Not sure if it would work in this instance without researching properly but the point remains in a general sense. Look at GoCoach in Sevenoaks as a good example. Many schools duplicate over service work and if the school bus was ran as part of the core route (albeit with a small school day diversion), you'd extend the operational hours by about 3 hours.

Thinking of Hampshire. There is not a service between Andover and Southampton. The service to Winchester is quite limited. Not much runs from Newbury to the west I have noticed.

Andover to Winchester Is pretty much only in place for the college, at other times, I'm sure it runs at a loss. The amount of college students kind of subsidises the bus for the rest of the day. It's mostly Conc pass holders too so it really doesn't make much. Shame it doesn't do better but it is what it is.

Newburys bus network is dismal for interurban travel. That said, bus usage isn't exactly high in the area either so chances of it changing is unlikely. Unfortunately, the council is one of those who prefers to be self contained as well, not working with neighbours to achieve the mutual goal of improved buses cross borders.

 

[Stan Drews]

If we go off your figures, I guess a lot of firms are about to go under then as the vast majority of tenders for Mon-Sun inc Eves services do not hit that figure. Tenders in Merseyside, you could be looking anywhere between 80-110k per bus for a Mon-Sat service. Bearing in mind, firms are making profit off that as well. It's difficult to find a figure for Mon-Sun in Eves because so few services do that sort of thing or where they do, it's part of a group tender. The closest that I could find was £200k which was 1 bus Mon-Fri all day and 1 bus Mon-Sun all day.


There are a lot of variables of course depending on the operator but 200k I would say is at the very extreme end of things. It's significantly lower in most cases when putting in for contracts and even lower again for a break even (while break even isn't good longer term, hitting the break even point is the achievement for the service which many operators look at and focus on profit later.


I think Stagecoach went back to this style of working in some areas and are now on some kind of killing spree like Arriva in some areas. Taking busy express routes and sending them around the houses to reduce PVR completely missing the point of why people used the express bus.
When they take a risk, often it's then followed by dismal promotion, chop and change and/or pie in the sky ideas and then winging that they didn't get enough passengers and got their fingers burnt so won't try anything else again. (Widnes X5 is a key example of where they tried and messed it up so badly that a route which people should have used, no one used because it was unreliable, kept changing routes and no one knew whether they were coming or going).

Are the Merseyside tenders you mention, minimum cost (on-bus revenue goes to authority), or minimum subsidy (operator retains the revenue)?
In my experience the latter is more common, which would make an annual cost of £80-110k not unusual if that is the case in Merseyside.

 

[markymark2000]

Are the Merseyside tenders you mention, minimum cost (on-bus revenue goes to authority), or minimum subsidy (operator retains the revenue)?
In my experience the latter is more common, which would make an annual cost of £80-110k not unusual if that is the case in Merseyside.

That is one that I don't know, it didn't say.

There wouldn't be much revenue though as the service is pretty


There is information online from Cheshire West showing minimum cost contracts (Mon-Sat daytime) going for 110k-120k per bus and that is Stagecoach and Arriva. Helms has one which has almost £215k in revenue and that uses 2.5 buses (If you work it out, the 3rd bus is finishes about 5pm. Also it is timed with layover for driver breaks). Depends how you look at it, you are looking at around 85-100k per bus and again, that includes profit. Chesters Park and Ride works out at under 66k per bus, per year. While all buses aren't out at all times, it is a dedicated fleet which can not really go out on other work so can't make up money elsewhere. That is Monday-Sunday and with, at the time of the contract win, brand new buses. Again, this stuff must include profit somewhere (or at least break even)
(source: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/subsidised_buses_in_cheshire_wes#incoming-1460522)

 

[AlastairFraser]

If we go off your figures, I guess a lot of firms are about to go under then as the vast majority of tenders for Mon-Sun inc Eves services do not hit that figure. Tenders in Merseyside, you could be looking anywhere between 80-110k per bus for a Mon-Sat service. Bearing in mind, firms are making profit off that as well. It's difficult to find a figure for Mon-Sun in Eves because so few services do that sort of thing or where they do, it's part of a group tender. The closest that I could find was £200k which was 1 bus Mon-Fri all day and 1 bus Mon-Sun all day.


There are a lot of variables of course depending on the operator but 200k I would say is at the very extreme end of things. It's significantly lower in most cases when putting in for contracts and even lower again for a break even (while break even isn't good longer term, hitting the break even point is the achievement for the service which many operators look at and focus on profit later.


I think Stagecoach went back to this style of working in some areas and are now on some kind of killing spree like Arriva in some areas. Taking busy express routes and sending them around the houses to reduce PVR completely missing the point of why people used the express bus.
When they take a risk, often it's then followed by dismal promotion, chop and change and/or pie in the sky ideas and then winging that they didn't get enough passengers and got their fingers burnt so won't try anything else again. (Widnes X5 is a key example of where they tried and messed it up so badly that a route which people should have used, no one used because it was unreliable, kept changing routes and no one knew whether they were coming or going).


That's where schools and councils and places of education should stop their obsession with 'dedicated transport' and start working with operators to put kids on normal service routes. Guaranteed usage from day 1 is a good start plus it means that a 70 seater bus can be filled with 60 students plus have 10 spaces available for normal people (or more spaces for normal people if they only go a short way). This is the key to it, merge schools and service, not having them separate. There are plenty examples of it where it could provide huge boosts to passengers. Not sure if it would work in this instance without researching properly but the point remains in a general sense. Look at GoCoach in Sevenoaks as a good example. Many schools duplicate over service work and if the school bus was ran as part of the core route (albeit with a small school day diversion), you'd extend the operational hours by about 3 hours.


Andover to Winchester Is pretty much only in place for the college, at other times, I'm sure it runs at a loss. The amount of college students kind of subsidises the bus for the rest of the day. It's mostly Conc pass holders too so it really doesn't make much. Shame it doesn't do better but it is what it is.

Newburys bus network is dismal for interurban travel. That said, bus usage isn't exactly high in the area either so chances of it changing is unlikely. Unfortunately, the council is one of those who prefers to be self contained as well, not working with neighbours to achieve the mutual goal of improved buses cross borders.

Most of the dedicated transport for younger pupils is to do with safety concerns, but it would definitely work for college students and such. The college I'm referring to has an extensive subsidised coach network to bring students in, it's £805 a year from High Wycombe/ £675 from Maidenhead. For comparison, Thames Valley Buses' annual cost for a simply Maidenhead Boost (19/21 and under with college/uni ID) is £36.60 a month covering all of Maidenhead and the college, no yearly prices available, so let's say £400 - that would significantly undercut the coaches without need for continuing subsidy from the college, more flexibility for students and provide a guaranteed source of income for bus company.

 

[markymark2000]

Most of the dedicated transport for younger pupils is to do with safety concerns, but it would definitely work for college students and such. The college I'm referring to has an extensive subsidised coach network to bring students in, it's £805 a year from High Wycombe/ £675 from Maidenhead. For comparison, Thames Valley Buses' annual cost for a simply Maidenhead Boost (19/21 and under with college/uni ID) is £36.60 a month covering all of Maidenhead and the college, no yearly prices available, so let's say £400 - that would significantly undercut the coaches without need for continuing subsidy from the college, more flexibility for students and provide a guaranteed source of income for bus company.

Primary school, I agree with dedicated buses as well as SEN minibuses but high school kids cope fine on public buses in the majority of areas, can't see why it would be an issue in other areas. Look at Manchester and Merseyside with a hybrid. Normal services and dedicated buses where normal services don't exist or it wouldn't be cost effective to provide capacity on the core bus network.


The college though, I fully agree with you. It's colleges, like most public authorities, being power mad and wanting control over everything, not wanting to contract something out. Either that or they are too up themselves and dont want their students mixing with the riff raff.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Primary school, I agree with dedicated buses as well as SEN minibuses but high school kids cope fine on public buses in the majority of areas, can't see why it would be an issue in other areas. Look at Manchester and Merseyside with a hybrid. Normal services and dedicated buses where normal services don't exist or it wouldn't be cost effective to provide capacity on the core bus network.


The college though, I fully agree with you. It's colleges, like most public authorities, being power mad and wanting control over everything, not wanting to contract something out. Either that or they are too up themselves and dont want their students mixing with the riff raff.

It depends on the college, most of my old college's pupils used normal public transport or their own transport to get in, unfortunately I feel a large part of the reason why colleges and schools provide these large and frequent public transport networks is because of the 1) decimation of rural bus networks, meaning the limited network left won't get students to class on time and/or 2), the fragmentation of ticketing between companies and transport authorities. A county wide ticket wouldn't work in an area like the Thames Valley where the large conurbations are often on the edges of counties and up to half of the population of each county crosses into another for work, education, leisure or other reasons everyday.

 

[Scotrail314209]

A good example of express bus services are the Stagecoach West Scotland express services.

Most of them run parallel to the train service and both are equally well used. Granted they take slightly longer, but I think a lot of people prefer them due to how cheap tickets can be.

I was a user of the Express bus from Saltcoats to Glasgow for college. £9.60 on the bus compared to £14.00 on the train. Granted it would get stuck in traffic as it was the peak, but they always got me in perfect for my course.

 

[Man of Kent]

That is one that I don't know, it didn't say.

There wouldn't be much revenue though as the service is pretty


There is information online from Cheshire West showing minimum cost contracts (Mon-Sat daytime) going for 110k-120k per bus and that is Stagecoach and Arriva. Helms has one which has almost £215k in revenue and that uses 2.5 buses (If you work it out, the 3rd bus is finishes about 5pm. Also it is timed with layover for driver breaks). Depends how you look at it, you are looking at around 85-100k per bus and again, that includes profit. Chesters Park and Ride works out at under 66k per bus, per year. While all buses aren't out at all times, it is a dedicated fleet which can not really go out on other work so can't make up money elsewhere. That is Monday-Sunday and with, at the time of the contract win, brand new buses. Again, this stuff must include profit somewhere (or at least break even)
(source: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/subsidised_buses_in_cheshire_wes#incoming-1460522)

Unfortunately as the FoI request didn't ask about off-bus revenue, it is not possible to calculate the total revenue for any of the contracts shown.

The figures quoted here by others for annual bus costs are close to my own experience. But coach service costs - X5 and Falcon style - are usually higher still, attributable to higher mileages and longer operating days. Express coaches won't come in at under £150,000pa, and can easily range up to £200,000pa.

 

[gingerheid]

A good example of express bus services are the Stagecoach West Scotland express services.

Most of them run parallel to the train service and both are equally well used. Granted they take slightly longer, but I think a lot of people prefer them due to how cheap tickets can be.

I was a user of the Express bus from Saltcoats to Glasgow for college. £9.60 on the bus compared to £14.00 on the train. Granted it would get stuck in traffic as it was the peak, but they always got me in perfect for my course.

There isn't really a missing gap in their provision though. This is a particularly good example of Stagecoach really trying, even though the range of services has been cut back a lot over the years.

 

[Stan Drews]

That is one that I don't know, it didn't say.

There wouldn't be much revenue though as the service is pretty


There is information online from Cheshire West showing minimum cost contracts (Mon-Sat daytime) going for 110k-120k per bus and that is Stagecoach and Arriva. Helms has one which has almost £215k in revenue and that uses 2.5 buses (If you work it out, the 3rd bus is finishes about 5pm. Also it is timed with layover for driver breaks). Depends how you look at it, you are looking at around 85-100k per bus and again, that includes profit. Chesters Park and Ride works out at under 66k per bus, per year. While all buses aren't out at all times, it is a dedicated fleet which can not really go out on other work so can't make up money elsewhere. That is Monday-Sunday and with, at the time of the contract win, brand new buses. Again, this stuff must include profit somewhere (or at least break even)
(source: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/subsidised_buses_in_cheshire_wes#incoming-1460522)

How are you calculating your 66k figure, from the annual cost shown in the FOI request of £735,108 for each of the two contracts as awarded? What was the PVR, at the time, for those PR1 and PR2 routes?

 

[markymark2000]

Unfortunately as the FoI request didn't ask about off-bus revenue, it is not possible to calculate the total revenue for any of the contracts shown.

The figures quoted here by others for annual bus costs are close to my own experience. But coach service costs - X5 and Falcon style - are usually higher still, attributable to higher mileages and longer operating days. Express coaches won't come in at under £150,000pa, and can easily range up to £200,000pa.

On the G4 contracts there was no off bus revenue as Arriva/the council banned any tickets purchased on other buses and the tickets weren't available on the app. The only tickets were singles and returns.

Stagecoach 61/62, granted there could have been some off bus revenue though it would be small.

Helms wouldn't have any off bus revenue as they don't do mtickets and they don't have a network. They have a £6 day ticket which covers the 272 in EPort as well but the people doing both the 41 and 272 would be so low, it's not even worth worrying about.

How are you calculating your 66k figure, from the annual cost shown in the FOI request of £735,108 for each of the two contracts as awarded? What was the PVR, at the time, for those PR1 and PR2 routes?

Ok, fair, I may a mistake on that one. I saw the price being the same and assumed . Even if we double the figure though, that is £132k on a brand new bus which is relatively high spec with air con and announcements and absolutely zero onboard revenue or even chance of revenue. That's based on a lucrative contract as well. One which is well known locally as if they didn't win, the depot would shut.

Still lower than the other figures.

 

[RT4038]

That is one that I don't know, it didn't say.

There wouldn't be much revenue though as the service is pretty


There is information online from Cheshire West showing minimum cost contracts (Mon-Sat daytime) going for 110k-120k per bus and that is Stagecoach and Arriva. Helms has one which has almost £215k in revenue and that uses 2.5 buses (If you work it out, the 3rd bus is finishes about 5pm. Also it is timed with layover for driver breaks). Depends how you look at it, you are looking at around 85-100k per bus and again, that includes profit. Chesters Park and Ride works out at under 66k per bus, per year. While all buses aren't out at all times, it is a dedicated fleet which can not really go out on other work so can't make up money elsewhere. That is Monday-Sunday and with, at the time of the contract win, brand new buses. Again, this stuff must include profit somewhere (or at least break even)
(source: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/subsidised_buses_in_cheshire_wes#incoming-1460522)

With the greatest of respect to @markymark2000 and to the Merseyside area in general, I was referencing post #63 for a service between High Wycombe and Reading. I am unsure why there would be an assumption that the cost of bus contracts in Merseyside and Chester could be compared to that further south, because I can assure you they can't. Post #99 concurs.

Ok, fair, I may a mistake on that one. I saw the price being the same and assumed . Even if we double the figure though, that is £132k on a brand new bus which is relatively high spec with air con and announcements and absolutely zero onboard revenue or even chance of revenue. That's based on a lucrative contract as well. One which is well known locally as if they didn't win, the depot would shut.

Still lower than the other figures.

So you are already agreeing that, even in your area, a high spec one vehicle service could cost £132k. Taking into account higher staffing and garaging costs in the Thames Valley area, plus the likely higher supervision/management costs of this proposed 'fully integrated' service, what exactly are you arguing about? 6d?

 

[markymark2000]

So you are already agreeing that, even in your area, a high spec one vehicle service could cost £132k. Taking into account higher staffing and garaging costs in the Thames Valley area, plus the likely higher supervision/management costs of this proposed 'fully integrated' service, what exactly are you arguing about?

Thats for a brand new bus including profits on a Monday to Sunday route. Dedicated high spec, at the time brand new buses. Can't be used elsewhere to boost revenue and if the contract wasn't won, the depot would cease.

The 150k figures quoted above were actual running costs for just Monday to Saturday daytime. My figures include profit and Sundays which shows that the numbers must be relatively far off. Yes it may be Reading but even so, it shouldn't so much of a difference.

 

[M803UYA]

Meanwhile the Bournemouth - Salisbury express bus service, with no direct rail connection is still working commercially on a 30-minute headway, but evening service has to be council-subsidised. However it doesn't connect to the rail station directly at Salisbury, and the PlusBus ticket coverage doesn't extend to most of the route, to provide a good connection from Bournemouth Hospital along Ringwood, Fordingbridge to Salisbury to connect to the train to Bristol.

The issue with the idea of using buses from school contracts is the peak flow that you would seek to capture between Reading and High Wycombe would be commuters travelling around the time.
Although, with an investment with some bus stops off Burchett's Green slips on the A404, they could run it as an extension of a Maidenhead to Berks College of Agriculture shuttle in peak to spread those overheads.

The Bournemouth - Salisbury X3 isn't just an express bus service, it has local passenger flows and performs the function of being a local bus route along the villages it serves. This contributes to the success of the service - it's not a 'new' route in that sense, it's one developed over 20+ years if not longer with regular intakes of new vehicles every 3/5 years.

I suggested using 'school contract' vehicles for 'new services' based on my experiences of working for large operators. You would want to de-risk the operational costs as much as possible - the Stagecoach opco I worked for costed on a vehicle basis - so working other routes contributed to the vehicle's costs across the working day. So I'd want that peak hour cost covered. This means I'd run at a much lower frequency during those times as the vehicles aren't open to me. Longer term, if the route covered it's costs and generated passenger journeys then I'd introduce all day vehicle workings, but in the initial stages I'd want to cover as much of those operating costs as possible.

Other companies, such as Arriva don't operate the same costing system - they use a route system and each contributes to the overheads of the depot on a traffic light colour system (green for profitable, orange for covering costs but not profitable and red for loss making). Problem is there withdrawing 'red' routes creates more 'orange' ones and the 'green' routes turn orange as the overhead is spread over fewer and fewer vehicles. End result is something like Guildford where they've just closed the garage. Commercial innovation is something not practiced there so ideas about improving services were somewhat alien and people proposing such things didn't stay round long. Far easier to have a network change and remove a bus from the depot...!

I can give you a good example from First Hampshire where they introduced a new express route in August 2004 from Weymouth depot using a Mercedes 709 minibus. It operated as X37 and provided a peak hour link to Yeovil where a satellite site of Bournemouth University was in place, so there was some sort of peak hour flow. The return journey from Yeovil to Weymouth and the reverse afternoon journey was in effect positional, but the service was used by people who were paying concessionary fares (not free at that point).

The route picked off several points of the 212 service (Maiden Newton and Charminster) but stuck to the A37 much of the way offering a faster journey time than the 212 (which found every possible village, phone box, post box and lamppost to stop at on a 1hour 45 min journey but at some time of the week the stops generated passenger journeys). For FirstGroup at the time, such ideas were very innovative.....!

The route ran for almost 2 years - and was subsumed into the Sureline 212/216 service in 2006 which they'd run for a year at that point. They did expand the frequency but it didn't survive long and today there is just one subsidised route between Yeovil and Dorchester. So, even with a humble 29 seat bus working an express route there would be a mountain to climb in finding people to travel on the service.

Thats for a brand new bus including profits on a Monday to Sunday route. Dedicated high spec, at the time brand new buses. Can't be used elsewhere to boost revenue and if the contract wasn't won, the depot would cease.

The 150k figures quoted above were actual running costs for just Monday to Saturday daytime. My figures include profit and Sundays which shows that the numbers must be relatively far off. Yes it may be Reading but even so, it shouldn't so much of a difference.

You can find figures for depreciation on bus company accounts on Companies House. Depreciation, for those not in the known is the accounting method for writing down the cost of a vehicle from new to end of it's accounting life. It can be 10-15-17 years depending on the company and the type of vehicle. A double deck bus would be written down over a longer life than a small vehicle like an Enviro 200/Optare Solo.

Operating Costs include some of that - you also need to include such things as drivers wages, fuel, wear and tear on the vehicle, maintenance and the contribution the vehicle makes to the depot overhead costs (is the depot rented/leased/owned, is the depot newly built, falling down, a hauliers yard with pressure hose?). Is the vehicle an old Dart or a brand new Enviro 400 MMC double decker? The latter will cost more in depreciation than the former, which will cost more to maintain as it becomes older. Not that a 'new bus' is necessarily more reliable!

I have worked in companies where the figure was £150k a year, another operator it was £110k a year. On The Buses, who works at First South West has given a £100k figure per annum elsewhere on this forum which is obviously what they work to there - that's a little lower than I'd expect but all companies are different.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Bournemouth - Salisbury X3 isn't just an express bus service, it has local passenger flows and performs the function of being a local bus route along the villages it serves. This contributes to the success of the service - it's not a 'new' route in that sense, it's one developed over 20+ years if not longer with regular intakes of new vehicles every 3/5 years.

I suggested using 'school contract' vehicles for 'new services' based on my experiences of working for large operators. You would want to de-risk the operational costs as much as possible - the Stagecoach opco I worked for costed on a vehicle basis - so working other routes contributed to the vehicle's costs across the working day. So I'd want that peak hour cost covered. This means I'd run at a much lower frequency during those times as the vehicles aren't open to me. Longer term, if the route covered it's costs and generated passenger journeys then I'd introduce all day vehicle workings, but in the initial stages I'd want to cover as much of those operating costs as possible.

Other companies, such as Arriva don't operate the same costing system - they use a route system and each contributes to the overheads of the depot on a traffic light colour system (green for profitable, orange for covering costs but not profitable and red for loss making). Problem is there withdrawing 'red' routes creates more 'orange' ones and the 'green' routes turn orange as the overhead is spread over fewer and fewer vehicles. End result is something like Guildford where they've just closed the garage. Commercial innovation is something not practiced there so ideas about improving services were somewhat alien and people proposing such things didn't stay round long. Far easier to have a network change and remove a bus from the depot...!

I can give you a good example from First Hampshire where they introduced a new express route in August 2004 from Weymouth depot using a Mercedes 709 minibus. It operated as X37 and provided a peak hour link to Yeovil where a satellite site of Bournemouth University was in place, so there was some sort of peak hour flow. The return journey from Yeovil to Weymouth and the reverse afternoon journey was in effect positional, but the service was used by people who were paying concessionary fares (not free at that point).

The route picked off several points of the 212 service (Maiden Newton and Charminster) but stuck to the A37 much of the way offering a faster journey time than the 212 (which found every possible village, phone box, post box and lamppost to stop at on a 1hour 45 min journey but at some time of the week the stops generated passenger journeys). For FirstGroup at the time, such ideas were very innovative.....!

The route ran for almost 2 years - and was subsumed into the Sureline 212/216 service in 2006 which they'd run for a year at that point. They did expand the frequency but it didn't survive long and today there is just one subsidised route between Yeovil and Dorchester. So, even with a humble 29 seat bus working an express route there would be a mountain to climb in finding people to travel on the service.


You can find figures for depreciation on bus company accounts on Companies House. Depreciation, for those not in the known is the accounting method for writing down the cost of a vehicle from new to end of it's accounting life. It can be 10-15-17 years depending on the company and the type of vehicle. A double deck bus would be written down over a longer life than a small vehicle like an Enviro 200/Optare Solo.

Operating Costs include some of that - you also need to include such things as drivers wages, fuel, wear and tear on the vehicle, maintenance and the contribution the vehicle makes to the depot overhead costs (is the depot rented/leased/owned, is the depot newly built, falling down, a hauliers yard with pressure hose?). Is the vehicle an old Dart or a brand new Enviro 400 MMC double decker? The latter will cost more in depreciation than the former, which will cost more to maintain as it becomes older. Not that a 'new bus' is necessarily more reliable!

I have worked in companies where the figure was £150k a year, another operator it was £110k a year. On The Buses, who works at First South West has given a £100k figure per annum elsewhere on this forum which is obviously what they work to there - that's a little lower than I'd expect but all companies are different.

You only need to look at the wage costs to see how the costs rack up. A driver in Bristol is £23.5k....but then you add on the employer on-costs (e.g. NI, pensions) and then add on ASH (absence, sickness, holidays) and that £23.5k is much more like £31k (based on the figures I've used in the past). Then think of how many drivers you need...

£120k is a broad brush measure that I've employed but it does vary depending on a number of factors as you say. The figures for First South West may be a bit lower because of wage rates and the age of the fleet (not withstanding the investment between 2016 and 2019) attracting less depreciation and having a lower book value.

 

[M803UYA]

You only need to look at the wage costs to see how the costs rack up. A driver in Bristol is £23.5k....but then you add on the employer on-costs (e.g. NI, pensions) and then add on ASH (absence, sickness, holidays) and that £23.5k is much more like £31k (based on the figures I've used in the past). Then think of how many drivers you need...

£120k is a broad brush measure that I've employed but it does vary depending on a number of factors as you say. The figures for First South West may be a bit lower because of wage rates and the age of the fleet (not withstanding the investment between 2016 and 2019) attracting less depreciation and having a lower book value.

When I was scheduling it was drummed into me that one driver was £30,000 a year (after NI) - that was found to be a conversative estimate but one borne out by experience. This was at 2014/5 prices and with inflation would be closer to £31k now.

 

[johncrossley]

A good example of express bus services are the Stagecoach West Scotland express services.

Most of them run parallel to the train service and both are equally well used. Granted they take slightly longer, but I think a lot of people prefer them due to how cheap tickets can be.

I was a user of the Express bus from Saltcoats to Glasgow for college. £9.60 on the bus compared to £14.00 on the train. Granted it would get stuck in traffic as it was the peak, but they always got me in perfect for my course.

According to posts in other threads, buses don't parallel the railway unless they serve different locations. The railway would "win" if the bus doesn't serve other destinations, making the bus unprofitable. You are implying head on competition.

 

[Scotrail314209]

According to posts in other threads, buses don't parallel the railway unless they serve different locations. The railway would "win" if the bus doesn't serve other destinations, making the bus unprofitable. You are implying head on competition.

I do think there is some form of competition going on here as the prices on both the train and bus are broadly similar. The Kilmarnock - Glasgow express bus is a good example in a sense as the journey time is broadly similar to that of the train from Kilmarnock, with the only difference being it serves the northern areas.

 

[RT4038]

Thats for a brand new bus including profits on a Monday to Sunday route. Dedicated high spec, at the time brand new buses. Can't be used elsewhere to boost revenue and if the contract wasn't won, the depot would cease.

The 150k figures quoted above were actual running costs for just Monday to Saturday daytime. My figures include profit and Sundays which shows that the numbers must be relatively far off. Yes it may be Reading but even so, it shouldn't so much of a difference.

Sorry, but the £140-150k costs quoted above are the cost to run the service 7-19 Mo-Sa,including operators profit, depreciation (or lease costs) and overhead costs, without any revenue taken into account. Add another £50k for early morning, evening and Sundays. Think whatever you like about differences in costs between Merseyside and Thames Valley, but I work with this stuff and these figures are about right for a high quality coach service in that area. [not talking about a rock bottom cowboy]. You may get someone quoting less, but they'll be in trouble soon enough......

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

According to posts in other threads, buses don't parallel the railway unless they serve different locations. The railway would "win" if the bus doesn't serve other destinations, making the bus unprofitable. You are implying head on competition.

Oooh.... do you think it might be because the buses serve the centres of places like Beith and Dalry and Stevenston which the train either does not serve or the stations are peripheral? Therefore, perhaps the bus and train do serve different purposes? Yes, some may take advantage of the lower bus fare to go all the way to Glasgow but the train takes half as long as the bus. Fine if your pressures are more financial than time but experience shows that most people gravitate to the train.

However, in terms of Kilmarnock to Glasgow...well the trains are generally slower than the bus and more expensive. Go figure!

Keeping it in Scotland, we have seen that the bus service between Galashiels and Edinburgh was halved after the opening of the Borders Railway. Seen it between Bathgate and Edinburgh too. You can justify the price differential with speed for most people. Otherwise, bus services have to have a differentiator (unique journey options).

 

[jammy36]

Ok, fair, I may a mistake on that one. I saw the price being the same and assumed . Even if we double the figure though, that is £132k on a brand new bus which is relatively high spec with air con and announcements and absolutely zero onboard revenue or even chance of revenue. That's based on a lucrative contract as well. One which is well known locally as if they didn't win, the depot would shut.

Still lower than the other figures.

I think you are misunderstanding the figures. The Chester Park & Ride contract was tendered as a five year (with option for two year extension) "net revenue contract", so I'm not sure what you mean by zero revenue. As I understand it the subsidy element covers both the revenue shortfall and site operation and maintenance costs, so it is impossible to derive yearly vehicle operating costs using the figures you link, but certainly the suggested "under 66k per bus, per year" is very wrong.

When considering the viability of a fifth park and ride site in Chester about seven years ago the annual operating cost per bus was rekoned to be somewhere around 137k taking account of driver's wages/vehicle depreciation/fuel & maintenance costs (on a 42/16/42 split). With inflation, etc then the figures suggested above by others seem reasonable.

I'm not sure what you mean by "lucrative contract" given it was tendered on a most economically advantageous tender basis. If this is simply based on the claim the depot would close if the tender were lost, then M803UYA has explained here and elsewhere how removal of marginal services can tip a depot from viable to non-viable.

Also, as others note there will be a range and I'd expect the express service in the Thames Valley area figure that you're arguing against would be at the top of that range.

So £137k in Chester in 2015 vs £120-150k in 2021 - @M803UYA & @RT4038 's figures look spot on and something in the range £150-200k annual operating cost per vehicle on an express service in the Thames Valley wouldn't be outrageous.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Oooh.... do you think it might be because the buses serve the centres of places like Beith and Dalry and Stevenston which the train either does not serve or the stations are peripheral? Therefore, perhaps the bus and train do serve different purposes? Yes, some may take advantage of the lower bus fare to go all the way to Glasgow but the train takes half as long as the bus. Fine if your pressures are more financial than time but experience shows that most people gravitate to the train.

However, in terms of Kilmarnock to Glasgow...well the trains are generally slower than the bus and more expensive. Go figure!

I always find the advantage of bus tickets is that they are always the same price throughout the day. No fluctating at peak times, which made it very attractive for students like myself. Although it did take a while, it was worth it.

I normally find Express buses serve different catchment areas than the train, which is an example with Beith as the train completely skips it as well as the stations at Dalry and Stevenston which are away from the main town itself.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I always find the advantage of bus tickets is that they are always the same price throughout the day. No fluctating at peak times, which made it very attractive for students like myself. Although it did take a while, it was worth it.

I normally find Express buses serve different catchment areas than the train, which is an example with Beith as the train completely skips it as well as the stations at Dalry and Stevenston which are away from the main town itself.

Ain't that the truth. Students are those most cost-conscious; see Megabus vs. the train!!! When I was a student, I could travel from Newcastle to Darlington on the train (30 mins) or the Stagecoach Express (1h 10)..... price difference one-way = 2 pints (or more in the SU).

And yes, the location of the stations is a challenge for the train, or lack of in the case of Beith Were the stations to be more centrally located, I'm sure the coach traffic would be markedly different.

 

[markymark2000]

I have worked in companies where the figure was £150k a year, another operator it was £110k a year. On The Buses, who works at First South West has given a £100k figure per annum elsewhere on this forum which is obviously what they work to there - that's a little lower than I'd expect but all companies are different.

to clarify though, do those figures include profit or is that the break even point?

Would it be fair to say that the £150k is at the very high end of things though and is generally not the figure which should be used as a baseline, rather £130k is closer to the mark for large companies.

Some Indies can do things even cheaper and arguebly do (there is not a hope that some of the commercial routes but that's another topic).

Sorry, but the £140-150k costs quoted above are the cost to run the service 7-19 Mo-Sa,including operators profit, depreciation (or lease costs) and overhead costs, without any revenue taken into account. Add another £50k for early morning, evening and Sundays. Think whatever you like about differences in costs between Merseyside and Thames Valley, but I work with this stuff and these figures are about right for a high quality coach service in that area. [not talking about a rock bottom cowboy]. You may get someone quoting less, but they'll be in trouble soon enough......

Including profit. That's a big difference in some cases given how much some companies want a route to make. Any route can cost any amount of money I guess, it depends how you do accounting. Like companies fudge accounts to pay less taxes, you can work out routes in such a way to make them more or less viable.

£150k would be a longer term aim, I'd agree on that but take profit out, take as much depot costs out of it as possible (only depot costs being those directly related to the service such as maybe additional staffing hours. Any existing depot costs would be paid for by existing routes short term). You'd be taking that number down a fair bit.

For a high quality, top of the range, all singing, all dancing coach, yeah, probably right but 99% of coaches on regular scheduled work aren't that, even Oxford Tube isn't as high spec as some coaches which could be supplied. It can be done cheaper than that even by a major operator. It's just you want to quote for the best of the best.

I think you are misunderstanding the figures. The Chester Park & Ride contract was tendered as a five year (with option for two year extension) "net revenue contract", so I'm not sure what you mean by zero revenue. As I understand it the subsidy element covers both the revenue shortfall and site operation and maintenance costs, so it is impossible to derive operating costs using the figures you link, but certainly the suggested "under 66k per bus, per year" is very wrong.

When considering the viability of a fifth park and ride site in Chester about seven years ago the annual operating cost per bus was rekoned to be somewhere around 137k taking account of driver's wages, vehicle depreciation, and fuel & maintenance costs (on a 42/16/42 split). Taking account of inflation, etc then the figures suggested above by others seem reasonable.

I'm not sure what you mean by "lucrative contract" given it was tendered on a most economically advantageous tender basis. If this is simply based on the claim the depot would close if the tender were lost, then M803UYA has explained here and elsewhere how removal of marginal services can tip a depot from viable to non-viable.

Also, as others note there will be a range and I'd expect the express service in the Thames Valley area figure that you're arguing against would be at the top of that range.

The data supplied by the council is what I am going off. What else does anyone have to go off unless you work for Stagecoach MCSL and you have the full contract details or work at Cheshire West.
As already explained, if you read what was said, the 66k is wrong, I misread it. I've already addressed and accepted that.
The site is ran by the council so not sure what costs youre throwing in there. The site is nothing to do with the operator.


As for the £137k you're on about, again, it includes profit. For a brand new route, the key achievement is break even. From there, continue the growth into profit. Break even is what we need to go off here as every firm wants different profits and that varies quite substantially. Break even point, many operators are happy to keep it on as other work makes the profit or will keep pushing so that it can help out covering other routes.

What people seem to be failing to see is the difference between 'we need to make' and 'we want to make'. The figures are very different and for a new route, it's the former which needs to be looked at short term.

 

[jammy36]

As for the £137k you're on about, again, it includes profit.

No... as noted above it represents a 2015 expectation of driver's wages/vehicle depreciation/fuel & maintenance costs... and was used to estimate the likely shortfall between operating cost and revenue for a new park and ride site - where are you getting a suggestion of profit from?

The point made still stands that any operator introducing a new express service would very quickly accrue high costs, with no guarantee of return. These so called "no brainer" routes are high risk and even if that risk pays off (after how many years...) it has to be remembered that returns in the bus industry are generally very low. It's not surprising given the sums involved that bus companies are somewhat conservative... innovation yes, but not recklessness.

 

[markymark2000]

No... as noted above it represents a 2015 expectation of driver's wages/vehicle depreciation/fuel & maintenance costs... and was used to estimate the likely shortfall between operating cost and revenue for a new park and ride site - where are you getting a suggestion of profit from?

Because otherwise the council wouldnt be in a good position originally quoting 137k and it actually costing 150k!

The point made still stands that any operator introducing a new express service would very quickly accrue high costs, with no guarantee of return. These so called "no brainer" routes are high risk and even if that risk pays off (after how many years...) it has to be remembered that returns in the bus industry are generally very low. It's not surprising given the sums involved that bus companies are somewhat conservative... innovation yes, but not recklessness.

I agree with you on much of this. I think the dial needs slightly turning towards innovation though. Not by much but very slightly and I think many managers try not to take risks for fear of repercussions if it goes wrong. Either that or fingers get burnt with reckless projects which were set up to fail from the start.

 

[Cesarcollie]

to clarify though, do those figures include profit or is that the break even point?

Would it be fair to say that the £150k is at the very high end of things though and is generally not the figure which should be used as a baseline, rather £130k is closer to the mark for large companies.

Some Indies can do things even cheaper and arguebly do (there is not a hope that some of the commercial routes but that's another topic).



Including profit. That's a big difference in some cases given how much some companies want a route to make. Any route can cost any amount of money I guess, it depends how you do accounting. Like companies fudge accounts to pay less taxes, you can work out routes in such a way to make them more or less viable.

£150k would be a longer term aim, I'd agree on that but take profit out, take as much depot costs out of it as possible (only depot costs being those directly related to the service such as maybe additional staffing hours. Any existing depot costs would be paid for by existing routes short term). You'd be taking that number down a fair bit.

For a high quality, top of the range, all singing, all dancing coach, yeah, probably right but 99% of coaches on regular scheduled work aren't that, even Oxford Tube isn't as high spec as some coaches which could be supplied. It can be done cheaper than that even by a major operator. It's just you want to quote for the best of the best.


The data supplied by the council is what I am going off. What else does anyone have to go off unless you work for Stagecoach MCSL and you have the full contract details or work at Cheshire West.
As already explained, if you read what was said, the 66k is wrong, I misread it. I've already addressed and accepted that.
The site is ran by the council so not sure what costs youre throwing in there. The site is nothing to do with the operator.


As for the £137k you're on about, again, it includes profit. For a brand new route, the key achievement is break even. From there, continue the growth into profit. Break even is what we need to go off here as every firm wants different profits and that varies quite substantially. Break even point, many operators are happy to keep it on as other work makes the profit or will keep pushing so that it can help out covering other routes.

What people seem to be failing to see is the difference between 'we need to make' and 'we want to make'. The figures are very different and for a new route, it's the former which needs to be looked at short term.

It is impossible to make generalised assumptions. Wage rates will vary from perhaps £9/hr in some operations up to £15/hr in others. After adding on-costs of circa 30%, that is a big number. Add in scheduling inefficiency (which will vary by route, location and company), meal relief cover etc and a 12 hour timetabled day at the high end of the spectrum may cost twice as much as at the low end. That alone could be a difference of £40k per annum for just one weekday daytime bus. Then add in the complications of high mileage vs low mileage route and the effect on fuel, tyres, maintenance and the potential differences get even greater. That’s before you get to vehicle type (new vs old, mpg, maintenance costs), depot overhead costs and how any company or group overhead costs are apportioned, required profit level etc. There are of course some operators who don’t know what their true costs are (usually smaller ones), and some operators who choose to bid for certain work on a ‘marginal’ basis (usually bigger ones). It is also true that costs have increased dramatically in the last 12 months or so - wage costs, fuel, parts costs have all gone up and are going up quite dramatically. And I believe new vehicle costs will soon follow suit. Add compliance with BODS and (soon) next stop announcements, and and number used a year or two ago will soon be way too low.

just realised - this debate is getting somewhat off topic….. sorry. Maybe needs a separate thread?

 

[markymark2000]

It is impossible to make generalised assumptions. Wage rates will vary from perhaps £9/hr in some operations up to £15/hr in others. After adding on-costs of circa 30%, that is a big number. Add in scheduling inefficiency (which will vary by route, location and company), meal relief cover etc and a 12 hour timetabled day at the high end of the spectrum may cost twice as much as at the low end. That alone could be a difference of £40k per annum for just one weekday daytime bus. Then add in the complications of high mileage vs low mileage route and the effect on fuel, tyres, maintenance and the potential differences get even greater. That’s before you get to vehicle type (new vs old, mpg, maintenance costs), depot overhead costs and how any company or group overhead costs are apportioned, required profit level etc. There are of course some operators who don’t know what their true costs are (usually smaller ones), and some operators who choose to bid for certain work on a ‘marginal’ basis (usually bigger ones). It is also true that costs have increased dramatically in the last 12 months or so - wage costs, fuel, parts costs have all gone up and are going up quite dramatically. And I believe new vehicle costs will soon follow suit. Add compliance with BODS and (soon) next stop announcements, and and number used a year or two ago will soon be way too low.

just realised - this debate is getting somewhat off topic….. sorry. Maybe needs a separate thread?

Some excellent points raised. Huge variations, certainly didn't expect them to he as high as you said though.

Much more balanced than many of the other replies so that's much appreciated.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Ain't that the truth. Students are those most cost-conscious; see Megabus vs. the train!!! When I was a student, I could travel from Newcastle to Darlington on the train (30 mins) or the Stagecoach Express (1h 10)..... price difference one-way = 2 pints (or more in the SU).

And yes, the location of the stations is a challenge for the train, or lack of in the case of Beith Were the stations to be more centrally located, I'm sure the coach traffic would be markedly different.

Agreed.

As someone said previously, the Ayrshire express services are good example of Stagecoach really trying.

Other Express services could become feasible if the bus companies tried with might to market it as much as they can. Higher quality vehicles and range of prices would help too.