Extra ticket checks at Preston

[47271]

There isn't the room to install barriers at North Western. Best they can manage is semi-regularly a couple of staff usually accompanied by one or two BTP officers checking tickets in the underpass during peaks.

I went through WNW a few months ago to find a full Virgin blockade, probably five or six of them doing the business. Yippee.

It was obvious that this was disappointing to the local rifraff - as I left the underpass towards the street I was treated to a succession of sighs and effing from quite a few who turned round and headed back to do what they should've done in the first place. None of them appeared to be in any hurry, so just chancers.

 

[neilmc]

There is no justification for it. Why is a train off-peak from Lancaster yet miraculously becomes peak from Preston?

Because the bearded one has realised that a subsidised monopoly in which he can make up his own rules is a very wonderful thing.

And because presumably there are more business people in the Preston area who charge these ridiculous fares to their companies. If you had to pay this out of your own pocket you'd get your partner to drive you from Preston to Lancaster and catch the train there.

 

[All Line Rover]

Quite agree. It should be peak from Lancaster too. But is that what you wanted?

On the basis that passengers paying £300+ return to travel from Preston, Wigan or Warrington would like to be able to get a seat, yes.

Standard class passengers between Preston/Wigan/Warrington and London get a very raw deal because peak time restrictions are just as restrictive as from Manchester and Liverpool but the service frequency is much lower and "peak" trains are consistently overcrowded with passengers on off peak tickets, or cheaper Advance tickets than Preston/Wigan/Warrington passengers can get regardless of how far they book in advance, to/from stations north of Preston.

 

[greaterwest]

Yes there is. Barriers stay open a very long time[1] if not entered, they then close when a beam on the far side is broken. It is entirely feasible to do the following if the station is not busy:

1. Put coffee on barrier
2. Retrieve ticket from wallet
3. Insert ticket into barrier and retrieve, barrier opens
4. Return ticket to wallet and wallet to pocket
5. Pick up coffee
6. Proceed through barrier

[1] It might actually be useful for disabled people if there was a sign saying how long they stay open, so they can determine if they should just request assistance without trying.
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He doesn't have a valid ticket, as once it has been used it ceases to be valid, whether marked or not. Hopefully one day he will get his comeuppance, being one of those people who cause there to need to be the inconvenience of barriers, with a nice RoRA prosecution heading his way.
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That's the Japanese model. However, they close with some force (they have to to stop someone who is already moving quickly towards the gate) - I guess in Japan injuring a passenger without a valid ticket is seen as acceptable. I can't see that being accepted here - the first legal case would soon be along.

The Wide Aisle Gate is designed to remain open for 30 seconds after a valid ticket is inserted, if no beam has been broken.

They close if you try to walk through without inserting a ticket too!

This still doesn't sound like a good idea, potential injuries could occur, as ticket barriers are not weak machines.

 

[Hellfire]

You know as well as I do that revenue checks on Virgin are very poor. The train manager is often totally invisible for almost the whole journey.

Virgin have made quite a few improvements since I left them in 2013 but this isn't one of them.

That is certainly not my experience. I travel every week between Preston and London and I would say there is a ticket check on almost every journey. The train manager has the best part of two hours to do them between Warrington BQ and Euston as most of the Preston trains run non-stop between these stations. I can't speak for the ones that go round Birmingham
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On the basis that passengers paying £300+ return to travel from Preston, Wigan or Warrington would like to be able to get a seat, yes.

Standard class passengers between Preston/Wigan/Warrington and London get a very raw deal because peak time restrictions are just as restrictive as from Manchester and Liverpool but the service frequency is much lower and "peak" trains are consistently overcrowded with passengers on off peak tickets, or cheaper Advance tickets than Preston/Wigan/Warrington passengers can get regardless of how far they book in advance, to/from stations north of Preston.

Surely the answer is that peak should mean peak for the whole of the journey from Glasgow to London and should be defined by the time the service is due to arrive in Euston.

 

[All Line Rover]

That is certainly not my experience. I travel every week between Preston and London and I would say there is a ticket check on almost every journey. The train manager has the best part of two hours to do them between Warrington BQ and Euston as most of the Preston trains run non-stop between these stations. I can't speak for the ones that go round Birmingham.

I agree. I think Virgin has improved in this respect over the past few years.

I can't remember the last time I travelled in first class to/from Euston without having an on-board ticket check.

Ticket inspections are consistent in standard class departing from Euston (if there is no pre-boarding inspection, the train manager will come around at some point), but somewhat less consistent when travelling to Euston. Some guards appear to believe that "barriers solve all" on the Liverpool to London and Birmingham to London routes, without appreciating that passengers might have boarded with a Liverpool to Runcorn or Birmingham International to Coventry ticket.

 

[snail]

Because the bearded one has realised that a subsidised monopoly in which he can make up his own rules is a very wonderful thing.

Can they 'make up their own rules' on regulated tickets?

The peak trains I've used from Preston are generally pretty lightly loaded when they arrive so I can see why there would be restrictions. It's the pricing that is ridiculous.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Because the bearded one has realised that a subsidised monopoly in which he can make up his own rules is a very wonderful thing.

And because presumably there are more business people in the Preston area who charge these ridiculous fares to their companies. If you had to pay this out of your own pocket you'd get your partner to drive you from Preston to Lancaster and catch the train there.

And how much influence does he actually have on VT when I think they are operating a management contract.

We're talking the difference between a regulated fare and an unregulated one. Interestingly it's the regulated fare that is the expensive one. That would indicate the pricing is government influenced.

 

[Domh245]

Ticket inspections are consistent in standard class departing from Euston (if there is no pre-boarding inspection, the train manager will come around at some point), but somewhat less consistent when travelling to Euston. Some guards appear to believe that "barriers solve all" on the Liverpool to London and Birmingham to London routes, without appreciating that passengers might have boarded with a Liverpool to Runcorn or Birmingham International to Coventry ticket.

Might want to put a "usually" in there! I was on a Euston - Manchester service last Tuesday which had no-one at the gates, and then no inspections from the TM. To be fair though, I think that he was having to deal with the disruption from all of the heat (or possibly couldn't get into the front half of the train as coach U was out of use?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interestingly it's the regulated fare that is the expensive one.

Not on IC it's not, it's the former Saver that is regulated. VT generally increase the price as far as permitted and set restrictions as tight as permitted.

 

[philthetube]

I have a friend living in Lancaster who travels frequently to the Midlands and back. He always has a valid ticket but because of Virgin West Coast's lamentable revenue protection he is able to use it for several return journeys within its validity.

Illegal but what do you expect people to do, it is an uncatchable, and perceived victim-less crime. Only people who would find a £10 note and hand it in to a police station are not going to take advantage

 

[sheff1]

We're talking the difference between a regulated fare and an unregulated one. Interestingly it's the regulated fare that is the expensive one. That would indicate the pricing is government influenced.

No, the regulated fare is the old Saver fare, now called Off Peak. The pricing of the Anytime fares is down to Virgin (possibly subject to an overarching maximum increase each year ?) and they have risen far more on WMCL than other 'Inter City' routes.

 

[All Line Rover]

No, the regulated fare is the old Saver fare, now called Off Peak. The pricing of the Anytime fares is down to Virgin (possibly subject to an overarching maximum increase each year ?) and they have risen far more on WMCL than other 'Inter City' routes.

Standard class Anytime Return fares are typically constrained by the cost of standard class season tickets (which are regulated).

For example, in 1996 a Crewe to Bletchley SOR was £51 while a 7DS was £91 (i.e. one return ticket cost just over half a weekly season ticket). In 2016, the unregulated SOR is £158 while the regulated 7DS is £159 - a difference of £1.

 

[AlterEgo]

Might want to put a "usually" in there! I was on a Euston - Manchester service last Tuesday which had no-one at the gates, and then no inspections from the TM. To be fair though, I think that he was having to deal with the disruption from all of the heat (or possibly couldn't get into the front half of the train as coach U was out of use?)

I've used Virgin five times in the last month. EUS-BHM and EUS-GLC routes. On each occasion I was travelling in First. On only one occasion did the train manager venture beyond Coach G to check tickets.

The prevailing attitude is that as long as Euston is barriered there's no need to do anything on the train except check people are in the right travel class.

The attitude is probably depot-specific (Virgin has a strange regional variation in the flavour of their crews thanks to their management structure). But nonetheless I wasn't surprised to read about the DfT insisting on more barriers.

I have three unmarked return portions of First Class tickets because nobody marks them even if they get seen. It's daft.

 

[martinsh]

It is entirely feasible to do the following if the station is not busy:

1. Put coffee on barrier
2. Retrieve ticket from wallet
3. Insert ticket into barrier and retrieve, barrier opens
4. Return ticket to wallet and wallet to pocket

5. Spill coffee all over barrier !

 

[mirodo]

I went through WNW a few months ago to find a full Virgin blockade, probably five or six of them doing the business. Yippee.

Strange for Virgin to be doing ticket checks at West Norwood.

 

[Bletchleyite]

5. Spill coffee all over barrier !

Not as yet


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[miami]

I have big problems with barriers. As someone who has a valid ticket the only thing they do for me is errounously prevent me from boarding my train, delaying me despite spending £££ for a ticket.

Barriers on arrival into Euston have the sole effect of adding 5 minutes to everyone's journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Barriers on arrival into Euston have the sole effect of adding 5 minutes to everyone's journey.

Only because they're badly designed. A better design would have been to place a single barrier line under the departure board, which would have allowed for a line of perhaps 20-30 barriers plus perhaps 4 well-signed wide gates and a staffed, well-signed assistance desk. This would also have had the benefit of slowing the Euston scrum down a bit. Though something, perhaps a dedicated smaller barrier line without an accessible[1] gate, would be needed for the Tube tunnel from 8-11.

Yes, it would have left a small amount of retail on the paid side, but there are other stations like that, so I don't see why it would be a massive problem in and of itself.

[1] As the tunnel is not wheelchair accessible, having steps, there is no need for wheelchair access, as the wheelchairs wouldn't be able to go anywhere, and those with big heavy luggage would probably find it easier to go up the ramp and down the escalators.

 

[greaterwest]

Indeed, look how Waterloo does it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed, look how Waterloo does it.

Waterloo doesn't have any retail outlets in the "paid" area.

I wouldn't fancy being the one renegotiating the tenancies of the outlets which would be beyond the "paid" barrier at Euston as proposed. People wouldn't loiter in this area in the same way as they might at New Street.

 

[greaterwest]

Waterloo doesn't have any retail outlets in the "paid" area.

I wouldn't fancy being the one renegotiating the tenancies of the outlets which would be beyond the "paid" barrier at Euston as proposed. People wouldn't loiter in this area in the same way as they might at New Street.

Arguably the outlets should be provided for fare paying customers?

On the other hand, I can see how this may be an issue.

 

[AlterEgo]

Arguably the outlets should be provided for fare paying customers?

Why? they're there to make money.

They'll make less money if they're in the paid area. People won't hang around there.

You'll therefore only be able to charge less rent as a result, resulting in a drop in income for the station.

 

[greaterwest]

Why? they're there to make money.

They'll make less money if they're in the paid area. People won't hang around there.

You'll therefore only be able to charge less rent as a result, resulting in a drop in income for the station.

You missed the other part of my post, but yes, essentially this is the issue I see with it being like that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You missed the other part of my post, but yes, essentially this is the issue I see with it being like that.

You could always move the outlets.

Another option would be that you have three barrier lines; retain the suburban one as is, then have one for 12-18 on the left under the departure boards, and one for 1-7 on the right under the departure boards. You'd then rebuild the old food court area to allow access to the toilets that way, and perhaps have a couple of small subsidiary barrier lines at the side entrances on the 16-18 side for those who like to reduce congestion by leaving that way.

That would mean only having to close/relocate a couple of retail outlets, and would have most of the same benefit by having long barrier lines at concourse level instead of small ones at platform level.

 

[greaterwest]

You could always move the outlets.

But that requires money!

The second idea doesn't sound all too bad though, but would there be enough space for a proportional barrier line?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think there would, yes. The key is having a larger line shared between multiple platforms for best usage.

 

[Roose]

Only people who would find a £10 note and hand it in to a police station are not going to take advantage

Replace italicised section by 'honest people'.

 

[father_jack]

I have big problems with barriers. As someone who has a valid ticket the only thing they do for me is errounously prevent me from boarding my train, delaying me despite spending £££ for a ticket.

Barriers on arrival into Euston have the sole effect of adding 5 minutes to everyone's journey.

It's odd that many people like you who resent barriers so much to the extent that even when you're asked to put your ticket in (rather that bully the attendant !) find it goes beep- "used before"............

 

[miami]

It's odd that many people like you who resent barriers so much to the extent that even when you're asked to put your ticket in (rather that bully the attendant !) find it goes beep- "used before"............

An interesting slander.

No I resent barriers because they offer no benefit to the honest passenger / they can at best offer a small delay, and at worst cause a passenger to miss the train. I'm not the only one that suffered from them either (bnm at Paddington for example)