Face to face tables...a dying sight?

[cactustwirly]

We can but hope, as it is a tremendous waste of capacity west of Reading.

Really?
I've been on some really busy services west of Reading, where all of the seats have been taken, and that was a HD set.

 

[Skutter]

One problem with airline seating is that it discourages couples from travelling by train. Airline seats fill up with single passengers, as soon as you get to 50% full there are no pairs of seats free, and you get people especially at intermediate stations wandering up and down the train looking for two seats together. With tables, 50% of seats taken still allows two to sit together.

 

[Clip]

One problem with airline seating is that it discourages couples from travelling by train. Airline seats fill up with single passengers, as soon as you get to 50% full there are no pairs of seats free, and you get people especially at intermediate stations wandering up and down the train looking for two seats together. With tables, 50% of seats taken still allows two to sit together.

Funny you should claim that as I've done a hell of a lot of travel to bristol in the last 6 months and never not got a pair together as the missus prefers them and that includes Friday evening just after the peak

 

[edwin_m]

But those commuter trains are already wedged by the time they arrive at Paddington. There's simply not enough room on them.

Today they are mostly 2-4 car Turbo units. In future they will be EMUs with much higher capacity, and commuters into Reading will leave space for more people to board the train towards Paddington. There are also the 9-car Crossrail sets, which not many people will use between Reading and London but will load up to and from intermediate stations.

 

[Mikey C]

The issue with airline seats is the lack of legroom. I'm tall (6' 4"), but wouldn't say I'm exceptionally tall. On XC voyagers it's okay as long as you can find one of the airline 'priority seats', otherwise I just can't get comfy in a standard airline seat. Hence I love the table seats.

And I'm always wary of 'customer surveys'. It seems to me that train companies use these to justify doing potentially unpopular things. For example, when XC took over from Virgin on the Crosscountry franchise, they used the 'our customers told us they preferred a trolley service to an onboard shop' line to justify shutting the shops down to squeeze in an extra 12 seats. The same applies to airline style seating. You notice they never say who/how many said, and how/where the survey/comments came from.

I'm not sure table seats necessarily have any more legroom, if somebody is sitting opposite you (I'm tall as well, albeit not 6'4!).

My last GWR HST was table one way, and airline the other, and I found the airline seat had more legroom as I could stretch my legs out under the seat, whereas with the table seat, it was hard to stretch without being very careful not to kick anyone!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really?
I've been on some really busy services west of Reading, where all of the seats have been taken, and that was a HD set.

That there are some such services does not detract from the overall point.

 

[cambsy]

The services which GWR will try most to have low density sets are the Pullman Dining trains as they need full kitchen cars, obviously occasionally they have wrong set especially from Penzance end so end up no Pullman service, the times are:
05.05 Penzance-Paddington:
05.53 Plymouth-Paddington:
!0.00 Penzance-Paddington:
10.06 Paddington-Penzance:
1206 Paddington-Penzance:
12.56 Plymouth-Paddington:
18.03 Paddington-Penzance:
19.03 Paddington-Plymouth (friday only to Penzance)

and:

05.58 Swansea-Paddinton:
10.45 Paddington-Swansea:

 

[Flamingo]

That there are some such services does not detract from the overall point.

It does, you know. I know lots of services that extra seats are required on west of Reading, and with all respect, I think I see a few more GWR trains over a longer period than you do...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One problem with airline seating is that it discourages couples from travelling by train. Airline seats fill up with single passengers, as soon as you get to 50% full there are no pairs of seats free, and you get people especially at intermediate stations wandering up and down the train looking for two seats together. With tables, 50% of seats taken still allows two to sit together.

On that point, I wonder how many posters here would move to sit beside someone else to allow a couple / group to sit together...

 

[edwin_m]

On that point, I wonder how many posters here would move to sit beside someone else to allow a couple / group to sit together...

Oddly enough I often offer to do so, particularly if the group in question look as if they are going to be noisy! They may be less so around a table than talking across an aisle, and I'll certainly be less distracted if they're not talking across me.

 

[Flamingo]

Oddly enough I often offer to do so, particularly if the group in question look as if they are going to be noisy! They may be less so around a table than talking across an aisle, and I'll certainly be less distracted if they're not talking across me.

Good for you! It's always nice to see that when I'm passing through the train, it restores my faith in human nature (and one sees enough that can ruin it!)

 

[47271]

Good for you! It's always nice to see that when I'm passing through the train, it restores my faith in human nature (and one sees enough that can ruin it!)

Rarely I'll be honest, but if I'm all set up with laptop etc it takes a while to move.

But yes a few times I've made way for a noisy or drunk group. Twice I've had a drink bought for me by way of thanks, so faith in human nature can be restored in both directions.

 

[Master29]

Just to make a point. Why should all services West of Reading stop there anyway? Why not have some fast services that don`t stop there at all? As I recall the Cornish Riviera never stopped there. Makes sense on busy trains.
Some East Coast services, particularly HST don`t stop till York. OK granted there are the Gatwick services going from Reading which me be one reason, however, travelling across London to the Gatwick Express might be just as quick.

 

[coppercapped]

One problem with airline seating is that it discourages couples from travelling by train. Airline seats fill up with single passengers, as soon as you get to 50% full there are no pairs of seats free, and you get people especially at intermediate stations wandering up and down the train looking for two seats together. With tables, 50% of seats taken still allows two to sit together.

Does the seating discourage couples from flying?

 

[edwin_m]

Just to make a point. Why should all services West of Reading stop there anyway? Why not have some fast services that don`t stop there at all? As I recall the Cornish Riviera never stopped there. Makes sense on busy trains.
Some East Coast services, particularly HST don`t stop till York. OK granted there are the Gatwick services going from Reading which me be one reason, however, travelling across London to the Gatwick Express might be just as quick.

I imagine Reading itself generates quite a few long distance passengers to and from further west. There are plenty of connections possible there between stations on the Gatwick, Waterloo and Basingstoke routes and GWR or XC destinations, even Gatwick itself if the alternative is dragging luggage round the Circle Line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does the seating discourage couples from flying?

For most cases of flying, driving is not an option. For most train journeys, it is.

 

[Mikey C]

One problem with airline seating is that it discourages couples from travelling by train. Airline seats fill up with single passengers, as soon as you get to 50% full there are no pairs of seats free, and you get people especially at intermediate stations wandering up and down the train looking for two seats together. With tables, 50% of seats taken still allows two to sit together.

A bigger problem for people turning up and wanting seats together is surely trying to find seats that haven't been reserved!

 

[Bletchleyite]

A bigger problem for people turning up and wanting seats together is surely trying to find seats that haven't been reserved!

This is the downside of seat selectors - everyone will plonk themselves in seats with nobody next to them.

 

[Wolfie]

Just to make a point. Why should all services West of Reading stop there anyway? Why not have some fast services that don`t stop there at all? As I recall the Cornish Riviera never stopped there. Makes sense on busy trains.
Some East Coast services, particularly HST don`t stop till York. OK granted there are the Gatwick services going from Reading which me be one reason, however, travelling across London to the Gatwick Express might be just as quick.

Because a lot of people use the RailAir coach from Reading to Heathrow and vice versa for a start....

Reading is far more a serious destination in it's own right now than it was 20+ years ago too.

 

[PHILIPE]

What I have seen is odd seats reserved with the adjacent one left empty. This can be particularly frustrating for couples looking for unreserved seats and can't find two together. Mind you, this happens all the time on trains with no reservations. People always sit on their own, human nature.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I have seen is odd seats reserved with the adjacent one left empty. This can be particularly frustrating for couples looking for unreserved seats and can't find two together. Mind you, this happens all the time on trains with no reservations. People always sit on their own, human nature.

My usual take on this is that each travelling group or individual wants a unit of seating to themselves. Airline seating has the advantage that a unit of seating is 2 seats, rather than a table where it is 4. Compartments were even worse being 6 or 8.

I can see a case for being more creative with layouts to allow for this - perhaps having sections of 3+1 rather than just simple 2+2 in Standard. Large family groups and groups of friends like the 3+3 facing seating in LM 350/2s - it's only at commuter time when those are unpopular.

You might also find that while people don't like to sit next to someone in 2+2, they might well be willing to do so with a seat between them and the other person - so in your hypothetical 3+1 3 people may be happy with their seating if travelling alone, while in 2+2 only 2 may be happy with it.

What is true is that 100% seat occupancy doesn't really make anyone happy other than the TOC's accountants.

 

[Flamingo]

What is true is that 100% seat occupancy doesn't really make anyone happy other than the TOC's accountants.

It makes no difference to the TOC's accountants, as unlike airlines or coach companies, TOC's sell tickets (especially season tickets) on a "turn up and travel" basis.

If 500 people want to squeeze onto the 1800 to Anytown, then they can and will get on whether there are 400 or 500 seats, and the TOC will get the same money regardless.

However, if the TOC has arranged the seating so there are 500 seats on board (rather than 400 in a less efficient arrangement), then there is more chance the 100 passengers who would have been standing will sit and have a more comfortable (and some would argue, safer) journey.

 

[fowler9]

The above hits the nail on the head for me. A laptop and any real work done on a seat back table in just about any TOC's Standard Class, don't make me laugh.

I think the worst ever experience I had with this was on a TPE 185, I thought that I was going to have a deep vein thrombosis, I've shelled out for First Class with them ever since.

Work or no work, I dislike the claustrophobia of airline seats and will always choose a table if I can find one, there's always more give and take with the space available.

As for hoggers with bags on seats, I know they're just taking the one, but I find that they're just as bad in airline style as tables. If I get one on a busy train, I've long since given up on speaking to them. I just stand and point at their bag for as long as they take to move it, works every time. It seems to disconcert the selfish idiots far more than an 'excuse me'!

You need to take over an entire standard class table to do work while you travel and call other people selfish idiots? Have a word with your management!

 

[Mikey C]

This is the downside of seat selectors - everyone will plonk themselves in seats with nobody next to them.

To be fair, if I entered a carriage full of empty double seats and sat down next to someone, it would look a bit creepy!

Anyway, in terms of reservations, aren't most of them done by the TOC?

 

[47271]

You need to take over an entire standard class table to do work while you travel and call other people selfish idiots? Have a word with your management!

Erm no, I said '...choose a table if I can find one, there's always more give and take with the space available.' 'Give and take' being the significant phrase here. I occupy my quarter, give and take the belongings of other occupants. What's selfish about that?

 

[hurricanemk1c]

It is interesting the note the last two new builds for Irish Rail were the Mark 4 and the ICR fleets (in that order). The Mark 4's feature a lot of airline seats (about 50% off the top of my head) and delivered around 2005/2006. The ICR fleet is majority tables, delivered from October 2007 onwards. The biggest airline section is the five rows at the cab end of the A3 car. The rest are two rows of airline seats, followed by 7 tables, and another 2 airline rows.

The Enterprise refurbishment of 2015-2016 also kept the same layout of tables throughout (I think, might be one or two rows of airline per coach)

 

[Greenback]

The earliest railway carriages were heavily influence by the design of stage coaches and other horse drawn carriages, hence the provision of face to face seating.

Airline style seating only seems to have been brought in in recent times, and this might, in part at least, be reflective of changes in society and travel habits.

Perhaps most of all it's reflective of the family car, where everyone faces forward!

 

[snowball]

Unfortunately there aren't many turntables left.

 

[edwin_m]

The earliest railway carriages were heavily influence by the design of stage coaches and other horse drawn carriages, hence the provision of face to face seating.

Airline style seating only seems to have been brought in in recent times, and this might, in part at least, be reflective of changes in society and travel habits.

Perhaps most of all it's reflective of the family car, where everyone faces forward!

The stagecoach tradition led to the provision of a door in each seating bay, perpetuated on high-density stock right up to the 4-VEP and even some parts of class 312 in the mid-70s. High-density DMUs built in the 50s and early 60s had the same arrangement but nominally lower-density ones had face-to-back bus seating - was this its first appearance in any quantity?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps most of all it's reflective of the family car, where everyone faces forward!

The irony of which being that everyone would be safer (other than the driver, obviously) were they facing backwards. Same with aircraft.

 

[physics34]

The earliest railway carriages were heavily influence by the design of stage coaches and other horse drawn carriages, hence the provision of face to face seating.

Airline style seating only seems to have been brought in in recent times, and this might, in part at least, be reflective of changes in society and travel habits.

Perhaps most of all it's reflective of the family car, where everyone faces forward!

lol but then they dont face forward when the train is going in the opposite direction!

Its just blatantly to increase seating capacity.