Fantasy: Given no limits, how would you modernise your line?

[B&I]

HS2 would be able to fill five trains per hour, at that point you will have people at london universities living in Manchester!

What that tells us is that
1. We live in a country run by very weird people who think that a 400 mile daily commute is environmentally, socially or economically sensible
2. HS2 is, after all, a £50 bn plus bung to London, designed to extend its commuter belt at the expense of what little economic independence the rest of the country has left, cynically disguised as a project to benefit the provinces.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Instead of 5tph between London and Manchester why not keep the existing 3tph and instead have 2tph between London and Liverpool?

I rather see this then Manchester getting even more services to London.

Even better... why not improve the metro services around Liverpool and Manchester so that more people living there can do things like get into the centre of their own cities (and, get to Lime Street and Piccadilly stations easily so they can get to these Pendolinos to London )

 

[Clip]

I know, but 5 TPH Manchester to London with actual passengers aboard ? There's fantasy, and there's delusions of grandeur

Have 2 of them going to Scotland

 

[Aictos]

Even better... why not improve the metro services around Liverpool and Manchester so that more people living there can do things like get into the centre of their own cities (and, get to Lime Street and Piccadilly stations easily so they can get to these Pendolinos to London )

But no use doing all these improvements to still only have a hourly Liverpool service

Get the 2nd Liverpool service up and running THEN fill it by doing the improvements to Merseyrail

 

[keith1879]

Instead of 5tph between London and Manchester why not keep the existing 3tph and instead have 2tph between London and Liverpool?

I rather see this then Manchester getting even more services to London.

Why not drop to 2 ph and double the Liverpool service? Or divert one of the Manchester trains to Huddersfield and Leeds (with trans pennine wiring) to give us back our Stockport-Leeds link without even changing at Stalybridge. In fact wasn't such a service proposed some years ago?

This is all fantasy of course.

 

[keith1879]

But no use doing all these improvements to still only have a hourly Liverpool service

Get the 2nd Liverpool service up and running THEN fill it by doing the improvements to Merseyrail

I'm guessing that the reason Liverpool only has 1 tph is that those commercially aware people at Virgin/Stagecoach don't believe they can fill 2. Part of Liverpool's trouble it seems to me is that it doesn't have a "Stoke-On-Trent" ....which helps justify Manchester's service. Would it be any use to send a train each hour from Liverpool via Warrington - but I suppose Warrington already has an adequate service from elsewhere.

 

[Aictos]

I'm guessing that the reason Liverpool only has 1 tph is that those commercially aware people at Virgin/Stagecoach don't believe they can fill 2. Part of Liverpool's trouble it seems to me is that it doesn't have a "Stoke-On-Trent" ....which helps justify Manchester's service. Would it be any use to send a train each hour from Liverpool via Warrington - but I suppose Warrington already has an adequate service from elsewhere.

There is the third way, you could divert a London to Birmingham service and extend it to Liverpool using the path of one of the existing LNR Birmingham to Liverpool services with the Virgin Trains service calling at the same stops.

That way you have the existing faster VT and a slightly slower one.

 

[The Ham]

That may say more about the realism of HS2's demand forecasts than it says about a tual demand between Manchester and London

Do you know the annual growth factor assumed for HS2 and how this compares with what had been happening since 2009?

As by making the statement that you have it would appear that you do and you think that they have (say*) set the annual growth too high.

* I could have said too low but chances are any post which says this the author thinks the growth rate was set far too high and we are going to make the same mistakes as HS1

 

[B&I]

Do you know the annual growth factor assumed for HS2 and how this compares with what had been happening since 2009?

As by making the statement that you have it would appear that you do and you think that they have (say*) set the annual growth too high.

* I could have said too low but chances are any post which says this the author thinks the growth rate was set far too high and we are going to make the same mistakes as HS1

Well if demand is going to double over the next 15 years, as suggested by the proposed capacity increase post-HS2 phase 2b, then surely this phenomenon isn't just going to affect Manchester-London traffic. We'd better get cracking with fantasy line improvements everywhere

 

[B&I]

Even better... why not improve the metro services around Liverpool and Manchester so that more people living there can do things like get into the centre of their own cities (and, get to Lime Street and Piccadilly stations easily so they can get to these Pendolinos to London )

Quite. I'd much rather that Manchester had a public transport system befitting a conurbation of nearly 3 million people, rather than one apparently dedicated to getting self-important people to London as frequently as possible. Who knows, perhaps the economies of our provincal cities might actually grow if we enabled people to get around them as easily as they can get out of them ?

 

[B&I]

Have 2 of them going to Scotland

Hooray ! More congestion in thr Castlefield vortex

 

[B&I]

I'm guessing that the reason Liverpool only has 1 tph is that those commercially aware people at Virgin/Stagecoach don't believe they can fill 2. Part of Liverpool's trouble it seems to me is that it doesn't have a "Stoke-On-Trent" ....which helps justify Manchester's service. Would it be any use to send a train each hour from Liverpool via Warrington - but I suppose Warrington already has an adequate service from elsewhere.

Or, Virgin could simply be following a franchise specification set by the DfT over a decade ago

 

[keith1879]

There is the third way, you could divert a London to Birmingham service and extend it to Liverpool using the path of one of the existing LNR Birmingham to Liverpool services with the Virgin Trains service calling at the same stops.

That way you have the existing faster VT and a slightly slower one.

This is supposed to be a fantasy thread ...this isn't nearly ambitious enough. How about running trains round the underground loop (heavily rebuilt of course) under the Mersey and then via Chester to London ....now I think that would help justify extra services (at some slight cost admittedly).
And then of course through trains from Southport to London via Liverpool Central and some as yet unbuilt junction in the south of the city.

 

[B&I]

This is supposed to be a fantasy thread ...this isn't nearly ambitious enough. How about running trains round the underground loop (heavily rebuilt of course) under the Mersey and then via Chester to London ....now I think that would help justify extra services (at some slight cost admittedly).
And then of course through trains from Southport to London via Liverpool Central and some as yet unbuilt junction in the south of the city.

Well, to move slightly this side of the fantastic, I'd suggest this. Spur from the LNWR fast lines at or near Liverpool South Parkway, station at Liverpool Airport, bridge / causeway across the Mersey, parkway station for Ellesmere Port, line somehow reaching Chester station by means not requiring reversal in order to travel to Crewe. Then electrify / rebuild Chester-Crewe.

Hey presto! Liverpool and Chester have a much quicker link between them, enabling fast onward services to the Marches and south Wales, and they can pool their London and Birmingham services. Also relieves the overstretched section of the WCML between Crewe and Weaver Junction

 

[The Ham]

Well if demand is going to double over the next 15 years, as suggested by the proposed capacity increase post-HS2 phase 2b, then surely this phenomenon isn't just going to affect Manchester-London traffic. We'd better get cracking with fantasy line improvements everywhere

The predicted growth was expected to grow to nearly 181% of the 2009 passenger numbers, which in annual growth figures works out at about 2.5% per year.

However between 2009 and 2016 national growth was about 36%, yet under 2.5% a year would have been 19%.

As a comparison 36% would get us to 2021 (only just before phase 1 opens) under the HS2 model.

As such the network is likely to have reached broadly the level of passengers before Phase 1 was justified.

This could party explains why there's a leveling off in passenger growth if there's starting to be more and more capacity issues.

Between now and 2033 growth of 1/3 is required to reach the target figure. That is just 2% per year.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I'm guessing that the reason Liverpool only has 1 tph is that those commercially aware people at Virgin/Stagecoach don't believe they can fill 2. Part of Liverpool's trouble it seems to me is that it doesn't have a "Stoke-On-Trent" ....which helps justify Manchester's service. Would it be any use to send a train each hour from Liverpool via Warrington - but I suppose Warrington already has an adequate service from elsewhere.

One option that could enable a Liverpool would be to have a bit of amendment to the Pendolinos so you have a 'stopping Liverpool' using the 350 path; and then re-distribute the paths appropriately to have a fast one. Relevant management of the system would push the 'cheaper' people onto the stopper; the 'richer' ones onto the Fast if they wish. Two 9 cars should be relatively easy to fill. You could also then start getting the cheaper tickets for Stafford and Crewe, for example.

 

[Aictos]

One option that could enable a Liverpool would be to have a bit of amendment to the Pendolinos so you have a 'stopping Liverpool' using the 350 path; and then re-distribute the paths appropriately to have a fast one. Relevant management of the system would push the 'cheaper' people onto the stopper; the 'richer' ones onto the Fast if they wish. Two 9 cars should be relatively easy to fill. You could also then start getting the cheaper tickets for Stafford and Crewe, for example.

Exactly, of course it doesn't take into account the future London Euston to Liverpool via Birmingham service operated by LNWR - not sure if that could be classed as InterCity but rather Regional as it's really a a collection of three routes together being London Euston to Northampton (ex NSE, Silverlink, London Midland), Northampton to Birmingham (ex RR, Central Trains and London Midland) and Birmingham to Liverpool (ex RR and Central Trains).

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Exactly, of course it doesn't take into account the future London Euston to Liverpool via Birmingham service operated by LNWR - not sure if that could be classed as InterCity but rather Regional as it's really a a collection of three routes together being London Euston to Northampton (ex NSE, Silverlink, London Midland), Northampton to Birmingham (ex RR, Central Trains and London Midland) and Birmingham to Liverpool (ex RR and Central Trains).

And whilst I'm sure some poor soul will really enjoy what I would strongly suspect would be the fusing of the 1Yxx Leighton Buzzard 'flyer' with the 'Penkridge stopper' to give an end-to-end journey time of some 3h38 minutes, it is a terrible idea.

In reality they should have gone for the London - Crewe (diverted R/A Staffs to Crewe) to Liverpool to make a reasonably competitive service; whilst diverting one of the Birmingham - Liverpool round via Stone and terminating at Crewe. This whole 'extend a Wolves stopper' thing is complete tripe.

 

[gsnedders]

I think people have forgotten the "given no limits" bit of this thread.

 

[Harbornite]

I'd modernise my 'old local line' (cross city south, Birmingham) by extending all platforms to take 12 cars (where possible), extending the down loop at Cofton all the way to Barnt Green and electrifying it and maybe grade-separating the junctions at Kings Norton and Barnt Green. Oh and up the linespeed to 125 on stretches betwween Bromsgrove and Bristol.

As for my new 'local line' (GOBLIN) all I can think of is getting the 710s up and running!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

As for my new 'local line' (GOBLIN) all I can think of is getting the 710s up and running!

You unambitious person

I'd remove all freight from the GOBLIN (and the North London line) by building a replacement line for the freight trains outside London, then build interchange stations at most (perhaps all) of the places the GOBLIN crosses over radial lines from London, effectively converting it to a DLR-style line with a 10-minute frequency (I'm guessing that would require buying some light rail DLR-style units for the line, but hopefully, since it's already been electrified, you could get some that could use the overhead power).

Oh and get that extension to Abbey Wood built.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Hooray ! More congestion in thr Castlefield vortex

I don't think there are quite enough services using the neglected and underused through platforms at Piccadilly, so why not extend one of the 3 Euston TPH on to Liverpool via Chat Moss?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I certainly agree with the option of the new freight line from Hoo to East Tilbury; as well as the Redhill avoiding spur. Third rail electrification from Reading to Redhill continuously and AC from Hoo to the wrong side of the river; that way freight from Essex Thameside to South London (via Maidstone West and Sevenoaks), Essex Thameside to the West (via Maidstone West, Edenbridge and Guildford) and such can all run at least half-hourly off peak and almost unlimited overnight.

A large rebuild at Barking would grade-separate services going down to Dagenham from Fenchurch Street as well as allowing freight traffic along the GOB-lin. Two freight loops provided near Blackhorse Road by the reservoirs would regulate traffic to enable northbound freight traffic to operate via Seven Sisters and Cheshunt to Peterborough and such; as well as into the Midland Main Line and the North London proper at Gospel Oak.

A Tram would be used between Romford and Grays with a flyover at Upminster so as to enable a quarter-hourly service (enhanced at peak) via Chafford Hundred. This would create up to 4 extra peak paths out of Fenchurch Street during the peaks and get rid of conflicting moves at Upminster. The route would still be compatible for freight diversions.

In future, the route would be made ready to be a new 12 car railway with outer-suburban stock. After Limehouse it would tunnel to become “Crossrail 3”, with a new station at Aldgate then Cannon Street, Blackfriars (also with a station on the Waterloo & City), Leicester Square, Bond Street and out of Marylebone onto the Chiltern Route.

The interchange would be made at West Hampstead with services continuing up to Aylesbury via Amersham as well as to places like High Wycombe.

Rough service frequency at peak times:
- 4tph Aylesbury (via Amersham) to Shoeburyness via Basildon
- 8tph Gerrards Cross to Pitsea via Dagenham Dock
- 2tph Stratford on Avon to Laindon
- 2tph Birmingham Moor St to Laindon
- 2tph Aylesbury (via Wycombe) to Leigh on Sea
- 2tph Bicester North to Leigh on Sea
- 4tph Wembley Stadium to Shoeburyness via Basildon

 

[Clip]

Hooray ! More congestion in thr Castlefield vortex

You may have missed this being a fantasy thread ;~

 

[VioletEclipse]

I say reopen every single line and every single station that has ever been closed (Beeching especially) while doubling the frequency on every busy line in the whole UK. It's impossible, yes, I know. But this thread is a fantasy thread after all.

 

[ijmad]

I say reopen every single line and every single station that has ever been closed (Beeching especially) while doubling the frequency on every busy line in the whole UK. It's impossible, yes, I know. But this thread is a fantasy thread after all.

As someone who lives in a flat built on what was a railway line torn up after the Beeching axe, I don't take kindly to this

 

[VioletEclipse]

As someone who lives in a flat built on what was a railway line torn up after the Beeching axe, I don't take kindly to this

That's exactly why it's impossible lol

 

[InterCity:125]

Some lines closed for good reason...

 

[VioletEclipse]

Some lines closed for good reason...

That is true, while others didn't have good reason.

 

[InterCity:125]

That is true, while others didn't have good reason.

They should’ve single tracked some of the double track branch lines instead of closing them outright.