Fantasy tunnelling suggestions

[matacaster]

That junction will have to be rebuilt as part of TRU anyway.

According to https://railmap.azurewebsites.net/Public/SpeedsMap , the speed of the turnout is 15mph, and around the Bradley curve the limit is 35mph. But that curve has a radius of about 7-800m, which should allow 60-70mph, with the right turnout from the main lines. So the speed can be fixed.

I note that the mainline between Huddersfield and Marsden has curves that are tighter than the Bradley curve. I think they are going to regret choosing not to build the new line from Manchester all the way to Huddersfield.

Yes, all the way to hudds would be the better bet!

 

[AndrewE]

Yes, all the way to hudds would be the better bet!

Just go from Oldham to Huddersfield and have done with it. Would put a big town back on the "real railway" map and improve/completely sidestep the western Diggle approach problem.

 

[Nottingham59]

Just go from Oldham to Huddersfield and have done with it. Would put a big town back on the "real railway" map and improve/completely sidestep the western Diggle approach problem.

Agree. And there's an almost perfect site for the Eastern portal just 2km from Huddersfield station, where NPR could merge onto a re-doubled Penistone line for final approach. Just 31.3km from the western NPR portal at Gorton.

 

[AndrewE]

Not 20 or 200m N?
I was hoping it could come out at (railway) ground level immediately north of the existing platforms through the foundations of the historic buildings at Huddersfield to make preserve the current station as a good interchange point.

 

[Basil Jet]

The Goblin is an orbital railway from Barking (Riverside) to South Tottenham, but is a radial railway from South Tottenham to Gospel Oak, and goes two thirds of the way from Tottenham to Paddington but then just dies on the North London Line with no way to progress towards Central London. Consequently it's an abysmally under-utilised resource, with a dozen and a bit carriages per hour where there should be over a hundred. A tunnel from Upper Holloway Sidings (which I don't think are there any more, but I don't think they're built on) to Praed Street, with stations at Kentish Town (under Hammond Street) for Thameslink interchange, then Camden Town / Road (for Northern Line, Northern Line and North London Line interchange) then Baker Street / Marylebone. This would allow the District service from Wimbledon to Edgware Road to be diverted to Tottenham Hale and a quadrupled Lea Valley Line. This bargain-basement Crossrail 2 would free up loads of capacity in Central London by enabling journeys from north London to West London to stay out of the West End. As for the Goblin freight, a mostly single track tunnel could be built for it somewhere - it is insane to build loads of expensive tunnelled stations for Crossrail 2 while freight stops surface stations from having a frequent service - much cheaper to build a tunnel for the freight and let the existing passenger stations on the surface be frequently served.

 

[Nottingham59]

As for the Goblin freight, a mostly single track tunnel could be built for it somewhere

Where does the Goblin freight come from? Is it mostly intemodals from London Gateway via Barking Eurohub?

 

[SynthD]

Where does the Goblin freight come from? Is it mostly intemodals from London Gateway via Barking Eurohub?

That plus Felixstowe and the Channel Tunnel related sidings.

 

[stuu]

How about Brighton to Lancing (or even Angmering)? Enabling a proper metro service along the West Coastway

 

[Peter Sarf]

How about a tunnel from the Quarry Lines near Redhill to Victoria side of Clapham Junction. Thus avoiding Croydon .

Electrified and using existing EMUs of course.

Seriously though Crossrail 2 and across the Peninnes (although why Woodhead was thrown away makes me unsure).

 

[Irascible]

What gauge would you have in the Rosslare-South Wales section and therefore where would you have the - very expensive - gauge changing apparatus?

TBH, if it were to be financed by the EU I would imagine that the tunnel would run directly from Rosslare to Cherbourg! Such a scheme - while extremely unlikely to happen - would perhaps encourage the reopening and modernisation of the Rosslare-Waterford line.

If it's the joint ( and somewhat Celtic themed ) project I envisaged, then it'd be standard gauge - and UIC loading gauge - all the way up to Belfast and back over to Scotland, wifh freight terminals where's best needed. If you assume everything is containerised it doesn't really matterr if it's transshipped to a road vehicle or a broad-gauge one, the process could be made quite rapid if needed. As it'd be replacing ports, there's still the advantage of any terminals being able to be located in more helpful places. If you want to use it for Javelin style domestic service, then gauge changing stock is not a new idea - I think it'd be preferable to have the stock you need do it rather than force *everything* to do it. I'm pretty sure the Irish loading gauge isn't particularily UIC compatible any more than the UK one is.

 

[Basil Jet]

That plus Felixstowe and the Channel Tunnel related sidings.

You can't get from Felixstowe to the Goblin without going via Lea Bridge and South Tottenham, and I'm not sure why anything would do that rather than just use the NLL.

 

[Sonik]

You can't get from Felixstowe to the Goblin without going via Lea Bridge and South Tottenham, and I'm not sure why anything would do that rather than just use the NLL.

Or use EWR, assuming it ever get finished.

Most of the North London intermodal traffic is heading north or west so EWR works for both. Putting freight through London makes no sense.

 

[HSTEd]

Agree. And there's an almost perfect site for the Eastern portal just 2km from Huddersfield station, where NPR could merge onto a re-doubled Penistone line for final approach. Just 31.3km from the western NPR portal at Gorton.

To clarify, are you proposing to dive into the side of the hill immediately after the viaduct (heading away from Huddersfield along the line?)

It'd be interesting to see if you could get sufficient top cover fast enough to get under the houses

 

[Ken H]

A cross city line for Leeds. Eastern portal east of Neville Hill. Station under city sq, the western portals on the Huddersfield and New Pudsey lines.
Maybe a 'cultural quarter' station near the bus stn.

 

[Nottingham59]

To clarify, are you proposing to dive into the side of the hill immediately after the viaduct (heading away from Huddersfield along the line?)

It'd be interesting to see if you could get sufficient top cover fast enough to get under the houses

Yes. That clear piece of land where the Penistone Line enters a tunnel is nearly a cliff face. I assume it has never been developed because it is so steep. This view from the 1950 OS map shows the Penistone as a double track railway at an elevation of about 330 feet, judging by when the cutting starts. And Yews Hill is over 400 feet.

EDIT: The houses above the tunnel entrance are in Kingsley Avenue.
Note that a new cul-de-sac, Kingsley Avenue, has been built since this map was made, but this seems to be confined to the top of the hill.



Map image from https://maps.nls.uk/view/100948217

I assume there's not enough space to launch a TBM from here, even if you assembled it along the viaduct, so the tunnel or tunnels would have to break through from the south.

 

[PTR 444]

How about Brighton to Lancing (or even Angmering)? Enabling a proper metro service along the West Coastway

Or even better, a new line with tunnelled sections between Ford and Brighton for fast trains to bypass all the West Coastway stations. Although perhaps it could have a Worthing Parkway station.

 

[D6130]

I assume there's not enough space to launch a TBM from here, even if you assembled it along the viaduct, so the tunnel or tunnels would have to break through from the south.

You would have to completely rebuild the viaduct. The central girder section of the existing one is in a dire state of repair, with a severe speed restriction and a ban on locomotives crossing it.

 

[Nottingham59]

You would have to completely rebuild the viaduct.

I'm not surprised. But at least there would be fewer public objections than trying to build an entirely new viaduct over the River Colne in the vicinty of Marsden.

Does anyone know what is the state of the viaducts at Milne, Crimble and Slaithwaite on the line to Marsden?

 

[matacaster]

A cross city line for Leeds. Eastern portal east of Neville Hill. Station under city sq, the western portals on the Huddersfield and New Pudsey lines.
Maybe a 'cultural quarter' station near the bus stn.

Am I correct in assuming you'd be tunnelling under the river aire and canal?

 

[Ken H]

Am I correct in assuming you'd be tunnelling under the river aire and canal?

I would have thought a bit to the north of the station away from the waterways.
Yes you would have to cross them further west. Maybe using the old central station approach then diving to get under Whitehall Rd/Wellington St. Not got my crayons out - Its a fantasy thread!

Another watercourse to spoil things is Lady Beck which runs under the bus station and York Street. Usually just a trickle but causes flooding in the area in wet weather.
(For locals it runs under Regent St flyover, under the dole office, under where the 60's Millgarth police station was, then under the bus stn. Crosses York St and the railway just north of Duke St. You can see it on the National Library for Scotland maps section. Look before 1935 before they built the first bus station. Or a decade earlier before they built Eastgate. The beck gives it name to Lady Lane. And a bridge over it to Bridge St. The beck rises as Adel Beck near Bramhope, and becomes Meanwood beck, then Sheepscar Beck before becoming Lady Beck We did this beck in A-level geography.)

 

[HSTEd]

I've become enamoured with the structural design choices made in the new(ish) lines of the Barcelona Metro, L9/10, that use a ~12m double deck tunnel to hold metro trains, in such a way that the platforms fit inside the regular running tunnel cross section. Which means they have simpler station designs based around an access pit that then just attaches to the side of the running tunnel.

I've been working on what it would take to do this with GC loading gauge and complying to whatever standards I can find, and I've attached the current draft, which is obviously very rough, scale is 1px = 1cm.
So far I've accounted for the GC kinematic envelope, a 4.5m minimum platform width (lifted from a design document from Tottenham Court Road Crossrail station), a minimum headroom above usable platform width of 2.5m (from an Old BRB standard GC/TT0196), and a height of slab track of 48cm, which I got from a drawing of the Poor slab track system.

So far I'm missing the clearances for overhead electrification and the necessary depth of the structural girder supporting the top deck. Which is effectively a 14m bridge span that is infinitely wide.
That makes it hard to make an authoratative statement, but I think that all fits in a 14m tunnel.

 

[Alfie1014]

I would be surprised if bored tunnelling is even possible around Ely, the ground conditions are not good!

You need to allow at least c£100m/km of single track tunnel, probably more for one of that size, as the amount of spoil to be removed is substantial. Also the amount of concrete to go in! Also a TBM will only be good for about 20-30km max.

Mind you the Dutch seem to manage it not least on the relatively new High Speed line from the Belgian border to Schipol and the Betuwe freight route!

 

[Bald Rick]

Mind you the Dutch seem to manage it not least on the relatively new High Speed line from the Belgian border to Schipol and the Betuwe freight route!

the ground is much better there!

 

[Nottingham59]

I would be surprised if bored tunnelling is even possible around Ely, the ground conditions are not good!

Well bung it on a viaduct then, with piles going down as deep as needed. (Though outside the scope of this thread)

 

[snowball]

Well bung it on a viaduct then, with piles going down as deep as needed. (Though outside the scope of this thread)

I think views of the cathedral are a relevant factor in any proposals around Ely.

 

[Basil Jet]

I think views of the cathedral are a relevant factor in any proposals around Ely.

The viaduct would presumably be at ground level!

 

[Bald Rick]

I think views of the cathedral are a relevant factor in any proposals around Ely.

that didn’t seem to be an issue for Ely bypass, which not incidentally is a viaduct with very long piles, and not a tunnel.

 

[SWTCommuter]

How about creating a Solent Circle line?

Reopen Totton to Fawley
Tunnel Fawley to Cowes
Rebuild Cowes - Newport - Sandown
Tunnel Ryde to Portsmouth.

 

[Basil Jet]

How about creating a Solent Circle line?

Reopen Totton to Fawley
Tunnel Fawley to Cowes
Rebuild Cowes - Newport - Sandown
Tunnel Ryde to Portsmouth.

... with a station in Gosport between Ryde and Portsmouth.

 

[Halifaxlad]

There is a couple of tunnels I would do but the main one for me would be one between Sheffield and Manchester.

I would head south from Sheffield (Midland) station on the existing line for about 1.8 km before veering off South West towards Glossop where I would connect it into the existing network, this tunnel would be about 34km in length.





I would later build another tunnel between Hattersley and this new HS2 station at Manchester Piccadilly which would be about 10km in length.



I would also construct a 2.5km tunnel under Horsforth to connect the Aire Valley and Harrogate lines. So Bradford could (eventually) have a Bradford - Harrogate - Northallerton - Newcastle service.



Also a 850 meter long tunnel under Starbeck just under the old disused formation towards Pannal in conjunction with lowering the existing line to Knaresborough.



So that services could head straight through Harrogate and back to Leeds via Starbeck.