Fare dodger getting away on Metrolink

[beerswiller]

My wife and myself use Transport in Greater Manchester a few times per week. Whilst travelling by Tram from Bury to Victoria Manchester a few inspectors boarded this tram just a few stops from Victoria and began to check tickets.

One youth was stood near the doors and was prompted by one of the inspectors to produce his ticket, he hadn't got one but was then left alone. I heard the conversation between them and called the inspector over. I said to him, "had that been us you would have made an example of us" he told us the youth was a regular offender and was known to them. Thing was, this youth was allowed to continue to Victoria? Seems being a regular offender you get away and travel scot free.

This isn't the first time we have come across a similar situation.

 

[Kite159]

He will get away with it until the inspectors have a member of the BTP/police with them and then suddenly find himself getting taken down.

 

[Antman]

My wife and myself use Transport in Greater Manchester a few times per week. Whilst travelling by Tram from Bury to Victoria Manchester a few inspectors boarded this tram just a few stops from Victoria and began to check tickets.

One youth was stood near the doors and was prompted by one of the inspectors to produce his ticket, he hadn't got one but was then left alone. I heard the conversation between them and called the inspector over. I said to him, "had that been us you would have made an example of us" he told us the youth was a regular offender and was known to them. Thing was, this youth was allowed to continue to Victoria? Seems being a regular offender you get away and travel scot free.

This isn't the first time we have come across a similar situation.

He was probably deemed too difficult to deal with, no chance of getting a penalty fare or any correct details from him. I've seen similar scenarios on many occasions on the railway. Makes a complete mockery of doing ticket checks if certain people are allowed to just get away with it.

 

[shredder1]

I`ve seen it happen about 3 times now, usually they just ask them to get off.

 

[edwin_m]

Maybe they radioed for BTP to attend at Victoria?

 

[Merseysider]

Not much they can do in that situation without risking a confrontation.

 

[yorkie]

If they think the person may become violent then they tend to leave them.

That said, they will hopefully make a log of it and add it to the list, so they may be able to get them done for multiple offences when it eventually gets to that stage.

However some individuals are so notorious that the threat of an extra offence on their criminal record is hardly going to bother them. I don't think the threat of a fine would bother them either.

 

[Camden]

It does make you wonder, though, why more efforts aren't made.

For example, if someone is no notorious for fare evasion then a court order excluding them from the network entirely would then mean they can be arrested with more punitive deterrent penalties applied, and treated more urgently by the police.

By just leaving them be, those ticket inspectors are only maximising revenue for the company not making the network safer for the other passengers.

Although perhaps it does go some way to explaining why I have never been able to have one normal journey on Greater Manchester's Metrolink trams, and found it a hideous experience every time!

 

[telstarbox]

Unless you have a fully gated/staffed network (with all the associated costs) there will always be an element of fare evasion and there's a point at which it becomes uneconomic to reduce it any further.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless you have a fully gated/staffed network (with all the associated costs) there will always be an element of fare evasion and there's a point at which it becomes uneconomic to reduce it any further.

With an open system the sensible course of action, even though some may feel aggrieved, is to set the level of standard fare[1] and inspections such that the costs of ticketless travel are covered by the income from standard fares, and leave it at that.

It's not Metrolink's job to moralise, just to ensure its business is not adversely affected by fare dodging. If that means some get away with it and some others effectively pay for them via their standard fares, that's no great issue for Metrolink, they are still in the same financial position they would be if everyone had paid their fares properly.

[1] Metrolink do not issue Penalty Fares in a statutory sense.

 

[Puffing Devil]

It does make you wonder, though, why more efforts aren't made.

For example, if someone is no notorious for fare evasion then a court order excluding them from the network entirely would then mean they can be arrested with more punitive deterrent penalties applied, and treated more urgently by the police.

By just leaving them be, those ticket inspectors are only maximising revenue for the company not making the network safer for the other passengers.

Although perhaps it does go some way to explaining why I have never been able to have one normal journey on Greater Manchester's Metrolink trams, and found it a hideous experience every time!

Since the demise of the ASBO, it's harder to "ban" people from the network. Metrolink would need to get a Civil Injunction - something which I would encourage them to do as the law should apply to all, not just the easiest to catch and prosecute.

 

[pemma]

Unless you have a fully gated/staffed network (with all the associated costs) there will always be an element of fare evasion and there's a point at which it becomes uneconomic to reduce it any further.

A fully gated system doesn't prevent fare evasion. In some cases where it replaces manual checks it can even increase fare evasion e.g. on Merseyrail if there were no on board checks you could do access the platforms at Chester with a Chester-Capenhurst ticket and leave the platforms at Southport with a Birkdale-Southport ticket, which would be worse than the passenger getting away with doing Chester-Southport on a Liverpool-Southport ticket.

With Metrolink it would be impractical to gate some stops.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I was on a Bury service a few weeks ago and as we were pulling into Bury I noticed a teenager running off the end of the platforms, across the tracks behind us once we'd entered the station and run up an embankment. As I got off the tram, inspectors were checking tickets in front of the escalators up to the bus station.

The lengths some people will go to to avoid a fare, honestly its quite embarrassing and actually somewhat irritating for those of us that do genuinely pay.

I have to admit though, whilst Metrolink do inspections fairly often, I think there aren't enough carried out and encourages people to evade so often. They must be losing thousands.

 

[185]

I said to him, "had that been us you would have made an example of us" he told us the youth was a regular offender and was known to them. Thing was, this youth was allowed to continue to Victoria? Seems being a regular offender you get away and travel scot free.

Do we know, or not, that he was dealt with at Victoria? Perhaps it is someone vulnerable or disabled? Should never assume.

More likely not though. If staff are enroute to a big operation in a far off area (maybe resulting in 70 x £100 standard fares), they won't delay getting to that operation due to one fare evader (ie 1 x £100 standard fare). Get them plenty of other times.

I`ve seen it happen about 3 times now, usually they just ask them to get off.

With a <6% evasion rate score, plus the 33,400 standard fares of which 20% went to court issued last year suggest that the revenue protection is similar or better than some of the train operating companies.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Not much they can do in that situation without risking a confrontation.

and that is the problem

said yoot probably well known for violence or is BBV carrier and known spitter ... therefore dealing with the properly requires the presence of Police and (SIA) Badged Staff not just conductors/ ticket walla

 

[Clip]

It does make you wonder, though, why more efforts aren't made.
!

Some people don't like getting a kicking for only doing their jobs.

 

[Polarbear]

Some people don't like getting a kicking for only doing their jobs.

Agreed. The front line staff shouldn't be put at risk. Their job, primarily, is to operate the service.

Where more effort could (and in my opinion, should) be made is public transport operators putting more resource into on board security. Ive noticed a slow but steady decline in behaviour on public transport over the last few years, which seems to be missed by the operators & management.

Staff on the front line are told, rightly, not to get involved. Whilst I understand why, this does have the knock on effect of things not being reported up the chain.

Management are much more focused on corporate image & getting the money in, than any genuine attempt at customer service. In my mind, a decent public transport operator would take the issue of revenue protection & customer service much more seriously than is generally the case in the UK these days.

It may just be me getting older and more crabby, but my perception is that part of the problem is that operators let a lot of the low level stuff go, which means you get more people (ok still a minority, but a growing one) who will kick off simply because they know that they can get away with it.

 

[185]

Some major changes afoot from the PTE - with the recruitment of 30x Rail Safety Officers (SIA badged TSOs) plus 20x PCSOs (dedicated to Tram & Bus).

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ws/metrolink-bus-more-security-staff-13335741

 

[pemma]

Some major changes afoot from the PTE - with the recruitment of 30x Rail Safety Officers (SIA badged TSOs) plus 20x PCSOs (dedicated to Tram & Bus).

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ws/metrolink-bus-more-security-staff-13335741

Didn't they start appearing on 17th July, with more being added as they got recruited and trained?

 

[185]

Correct.. The full compliment of 30 TSOs started (appearing) 17 July. Three early leavers to be filled again soon.

PCSOs have 4 Team leaders for teams of 4, so they are almost recruited.

 

[sd0733]

Unfortunately there is little can do with some of them particularly the 'one stop wonders'. Eventually though most become complacent and you occasianally get one over on them by having Btp or preventing them boarding etc. But really our hands are tied when doing revenue and if you get assaulted the companies ask why you got into that position

 

[beerswiller]

The person in question got off the Tram at Victoria and walked towards the City Centre. There are no ticket barriers at Victoria for Trams, so he got away with it. No doubt he did the same on his return providing he did that journey.

 

[Fare-Cop]

It is something of a contradiction in that RPIs do have the authority to 'arrest' in specific circumstances provided by Section 5.2 of the Regulation of Railways Act (1889), but naturally when training these staff we insist that they should never ever do it for their own safety and that of others.

It is a matter of common sense that although the legislation written in the mid-Victorian era is clear, it isn't a practical solution today.

 

[185]

It is something of a contradiction in that RPIs do have the authority to 'arrest' in specific circumstances provided by Section 5.2 of the Regulation of Railways Act (1889)

*superceded by the superdooper Firstgroup/Metrolink/Arriva Hands-Off Law - thou shalt not put hands on Joe Public as it's like worse than mass murder etc and nothin to do with th' company insurers demanding it for a lower premium. Allegedly.

 

[Fare-Cop]

*superceded by the superdooper Firstgroup/Metrolink/Arriva Hands-Off Law - thou shalt not put hands on Joe Public as it's like worse than mass murder etc and nothin to do with th' company insurers demanding it for a lower premium. Allegedly.

Aah yes, I'd forgotten that 'statutory instrument' :roll:

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Just for comparison, I was on an NS train the other day when a young lad tried to evade his fare and then escape at a stop (Breda). The conductor blocked him in and it got very physical (they were struggling right next by me so I couldn't physically leave the train). The conductor was joined about 30 seconds later by the 2nd conductor on the train, who 100% joined in preventing the escape and certainly looked like she'd be trained in what to do. About a minute later, two station security guys (employed directly by NS) also showed up, completed the restraint and took the lad off the train very swiftly.

Like you, I didn't think things like this happened in the Netherlands (who have certainly had trouble with conductors being assaulted0 but maybe the time has come to revisit some of our guidance to conductors and RPIs, if everyone has got the message about how easy it is to travel without paying?

 

[Clip]

Just for comparison, I was on an NS train the other day when a young lad tried to evade his fare and then escape at a stop (Breda). The conductor blocked him in and it got very physical (they were struggling right next by me so I couldn't physically leave the train). The conductor was joined about 30 seconds later by the 2nd conductor on the train, who 100% joined in preventing the escape and certainly looked like she'd be trained in what to do. About a minute later, two station security guys (employed directly by NS) also showed up, completed the restraint and took the lad off the train very swiftly.

Like you, I didn't think things like this happened in the Netherlands (who have certainly had trouble with conductors being assaulted0 but maybe the time has come to revisit some of our guidance to conductors and RPIs, if everyone has got the message about how easy it is to travel without paying?

As Yorkie has mentioned above though - the hardcore fare evaders will probably have a sheet a mile long of convictions and know that the worst will happen in court will be a fine which they'll likely not pay so you simply cant deal with them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've seen a fairly slight (but clearly very Scottish) female ScotRail guard chase a fare evader off a train and out of the station, though I don't know if she got him. They're made of sterner stuff up there.

 

[scrapy]

If the offender is known to the inspectors they may already know the person's details and therefore move straight to prosecution or add the event to their intelligence towards a future prosecution. A penalty (or standard) fare would not be issued. Throwing them off will only cause further agrivation.

If they don't know their details and they are a persistent offender their movements will be logged and any regular patterns noted so they can be met by the police in the future.

 

[nanstallon]

In Britain's yob culture, the authorities only go after easy pickings.