Fare evasion but they don't live here anymore

[ieryn]

My 16 year old niece was caught riding without a ticket, I don't know what age she said she was nor if she gave my address or Southeastern somehow found it, but she hasn't lived here in four years. No one here has parental responsibility for her anymore as she's under the care of the local authority. We've now had 5 letters demanding payment, all of which were sent back with notes explaining the situation. Today the guy on the phone just said to send it back again even though the letters are now threatening prosecution and adding fines.
We don't know where my niece lives nor are we in contact with her.

We've not been able to find a way to contact the debt collection department and can only contact the general helpline which is doing nothing to help the situation as they just say the same thing time and again.
We've tried Citizens Advice but can't get hold of anyone.

Does anyone here have any ideas of what to do or have any experience with this?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Welcome to the forum.

Reckon that you have more or less done the right thing.

Depending on how helpful you now wish to be, you might wish to send a formal "No longer at this address" letter back to the sender, maybe on a "Signed for" basis, and maybe also copying in the local authority into the latest correspondence. No obligation to do the latter, though.

If your niece hasn't been receiving any correspondence due to her having given SouthEastern an out of date address, she'll not have had the opportunity of explaining / defending her situation.

Others on here should be better placed to explain what might then happen next, in view of your niece's age / personal circumstances.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are they addressed to her name? If so just put "no longer at this address, forwarding address unknown" on the outside of the envelope and put it in a post box. It is neither legally nor morally your problem.

 

[ieryn]

Are they addressed to her name? If so just put "no longer at this address, forwarding address unknown" on the outside of the envelope and put it in a post box. It is neither legally nor morally your problem.

It's addressed to her parent/guardian, but no one here has parental responsibility anymore. When she went into the care of the local authority all legal PR was removed from her parents/guardians and went to the LA.
We've sent the letters back saying she's no longer here but they just send more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's addressed to her parent/guardian, but no one here has parental responsibility anymore. When she went into the care of the local authority all legal PR was removed from her parents/guardians and went to the LA.
We've sent the letters back saying she's no longer here but they just send more.

Just keep sending them back, it doesn't cost you anything. Eventually they will give up.

Even if court bailiffs show up (unlikely) it is presumably fairly easy to prove that she is no longer there.

 

[etr221]

My interpretation of the situation is that her 'parent/guardian' is now the local authority (or one of their officers). On the basis that you have explained this, any further correspondence addressed (as I understand it is) to 'Parent/Guardian of Miss X' should just be forwarded to their address, which is that of the Local Authority Offices.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

My interpretation of the situation is that her 'parent/guardian' is now the local authority (or one of their officers). On the basis that you have explained this, any further correspondence addressed (as I understand it is) to 'Parent/Guardian of Miss X' should just be forwarded to their address, which is that of the Local Authority Offices.

And therefore, it falls to the creditors to contact the relevant Local Authority to try and recover the funds. It is not the responsibility of @ieryn

 

[ieryn]

Thank you for the replies. We're not even sure which local authority she's under anymore as it's been so long. We've been able to contact the local social workers and ask about it but no one at the relevant departments is answering the phone, which is common. Hopefully, we can either find out which LA she's under and send it to them or find out the full name of her social worker and send it to him.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Thank you for the replies. We're not even sure which local authority she's under anymore as it's been so long. We've been able to contact the local social workers and ask about it but no one at the relevant departments is answering the phone, which is common. Hopefully, we can either find out which LA she's under and send it to them or find out the full name of her social worker and send it to him.

It isn't your job to find out who the local LA is. It is the job of whoever is acting on behalf of the railway.

 

[WesternLancer]

My interpretation of the situation is that her 'parent/guardian' is now the local authority (or one of their officers). On the basis that you have explained this, any further correspondence addressed (as I understand it is) to 'Parent/Guardian of Miss X' should just be forwarded to their address, which is that of the Local Authority Offices.

Yes, OP could write on envelope

Please forward to:
Name of person (ie niece)
care of Director of Social Services / Children's services
name and address of local authority
etc
and stick it in the post (no stamp needed)

If you want them (the local authority) to know more clearly: you could put the post in an envelope and write to the Director of Social Services / Children's services at the local authority address with a short covering note asking them to engage with the railway company about the matter. Whether they would or not is up to them of course.

You could write to the railway company saying this is what you have done and why. That might not stop the letters, but so long as you kept a copy and a proof of posting, it would cover you in the event of bailiffs turning up on your doorstep, in the sense you would have grounds for a formal complaint to the railway for ignoring the information you have given them and them taking no action on it despite your best efforts.

I would not waste time trying to phone any of the organisation involved, but of course my advice may take you more time and trouble will cost 1 or 2 stamps, but it might eventually work as it is 'more formal' than phoning.

You could end your letter with something along lines of "please acknowledge receipt of this letter and confirm that you have understood and acted upon it or I will consider raising the matter with an appropriate complaints service or Ombudsman. I am sorry that I can be of no further assistance given the circumstances of the individual you are seeking"

Thank you for the replies. We're not even sure which local authority she's under anymore as it's been so long. We've been able to contact the local social workers and ask about it but no one at the relevant departments is answering the phone, which is common. Hopefully, we can either find out which LA she's under and send it to them or find out the full name of her social worker and send it to him.

If the local social workers are not answering the phone try e-mailing the council's generic e-mail address asking them to make contact with you regarding such and such person who was in their care at x date as you are a family member and need to bring an important matter to the attention of a suitable member of social work staff .
Keep a copy of your e-mail.

 

[Typhoon]

Thank you for the replies. We're not even sure which local authority she's under anymore as it's been so long. We've been able to contact the local social workers and ask about it but no one at the relevant departments is answering the phone, which is common. Hopefully, we can either find out which LA she's under and send it to them or find out the full name of her social worker and send it to him.

Those who have posted above have a track record of giving sound advice, that is worth following.
My reason for posting is that although the situation is stressful, there is no need for you or your family to worry unnecessarily, just set out the situation as described above. This won't be the first situation when someone has given the wrong address. I quite like the idea of sending correspondence to the Director of Social Services, as it is going to one person, not a department or group of people - and ask them to deal with it. Any further correspondence, from SouthEastern, just say that you forwarded their last letter to the Director of Social Services* at whatever authority. If you niece has moved on, they should know. I would make absolutely no effort to find out where she is now, not your problem. It is their problem unless they say where she went next!

Since it is SouthEastern, it may be that your niece is under the care of Kent, Medway, East Sussex, Bexley. Bromley, Lewisham, Greenwich. If not, they are easy to look up.

* Some key people - Kent - Mr M Dunkley, Corporate Director for Children, Young People and Education (or Ms S Hammond, Director of Integrated Services (Children's Social Work Lead))
Medway - Dr L-A Farach, Director of People (Children and Adults),
East Sussex - Ms A Jeffery, Director of Children's Services
Bexley - Mr S Kitchman, Director of Children's Services
Bromley - Mr R Baldwin, Director of Children's Services
Lewisham - Ms L Heyes, Director of Children's Social Care
Greenwich - Ms F. Kroll, Director of Children's Services.

I would address all correspondence by name and job title, and, line with what has been written above, keep it simple.

 

[WesternLancer]

Those who have posted above have a track record of giving sound advice, that is worth following.
My reason for posting is that although the situation is stressful, there is no need for you or your family to worry unnecessarily, just set out the situation as described above. This won't be the first situation when someone has given the wrong address. I quite like the idea of sending correspondence to the Director of Social Services, as it is going to one person, not a department or group of people - and ask them to deal with it. Any further correspondence, from SouthEastern, just say that you forwarded their last letter to the Director of Social Services* at whatever authority. If you niece has moved on, they should know. I would make absolutely no effort to find out where she is now, not your problem. It is their problem unless they say where she went next!

Since it is SouthEastern, it may be that your niece is under the care of Kent, Medway, East Sussex, Bexley. Bromley, Lewisham, Greenwich. If not, they are easy to look up.

* Some key people - Kent - Mr M Dunkley, Corporate Director for Children, Young People and Education (or Ms S Hammond, Director of Integrated Services (Children's Social Work Lead))
Medway - Dr L-A Farach, Director of People (Children and Adults),
East Sussex - Ms A Jeffery, Director of Children's Services
Bexley - Mr S Kitchman, Director of Children's Services
Bromley - Mr R Baldwin, Director of Children's Services
Lewisham - Ms L Heyes, Director of Children's Social Care
Greenwich - Ms F. Kroll, Director of Children's Services.

I would address all correspondence by name and job title, and, line with what has been written above, keep it simple.

V helpful info. The advantage of writing to the Director is that they will be one of the few people left in Local Council senior enough to still have a PA to deal with such letters / e-mails, and with luck will find the right person to get on the case (and ignoring the Director's PA if you are another employee is never a wise move... ) plus he/she will not really want the train company's or court's bailiffs or debt collectors appearing at the Council offices so has an added incentive to get someone to attend to the matter, one may hope.

Of course it can't possibly be the first time this sort of thing has happened.

I wish the OP good luck with getting it resolved.

 

[Typhoon]

V helpful info. The advantage of writing to the Director is that they will be one of the few people left in Local Council senior enough to still have a PA to deal with such letters / e-mails, and with luck will find the right person to get on the case (and ignoring the Director's PA if you are another employee is never a wise move... ) plus he/she will not really want the train company's or court's bailiffs or debt collectors appearing at the Council offices so has an added incentive to get someone to attend to the matter, one may hope.

Of course it can't possibly be the first time this sort of thing has happened.

I wish the OP good luck with getting it resolved.

Most Directors I have known who have been in place for any length of time know how to clear their desk (or, as you suggest, have someone they trust to clear it for them). Within a Local Authority they are also not so high up that there are not people higher up (in this case usually two, the CEO and Leader of the Council) to whom matters can be escalated. Even if a Director was oblivious to the appearance of court officials. the Leader of the Council might not feel totally at home with an opposition question about debt collectors at the door.

Unfortunately, I think someone at SouthEastern (or its agents) is taking the easy way out. 'We've written to the address/ parents of guardians'. Sorry, not good enough, they have been given a clear line along which to go (hopefully the OP will follow the advice that you and others have provided), now follow it and leave the innocent alone.

 

[Aljanah]

It isn't your job to find out who the local LA is. It is the job of whoever is acting on behalf of the railway.

True, but:

We can see in other threads the legal consequences of deliberately mis-directing the TOC by the original traveller - it might be helpful to the niece to have this dealt with properly sooner rather than later.

We can see in other threads the effort required to do a statutory declaration and start again. The burden of performing this role would possibly be being laid on the LA, and who pays for that?

We can see in other threads the effort required in dealing with debt collectors with falsified addresses and mounting debts. Again, should the LA be left to shoulder the burden and migth assistance to the niece be beneficial?

So I would say there a number of good reasons to try to help the TOC and the LA, even though any strict duty is plainly absent. But doing "nothing" might be helping the niece have even deeper hole dug for them. I would have thought getting the letter to the last known LA social services is a good start. I know from personal experience its not nice being chased for someone elses debt.

 

[mmh]

V helpful info. The advantage of writing to the Director is that they will be one of the few people left in Local Council senior enough to still have a PA to deal with such letters / e-mails, and with luck will find the right person to get on the case (and ignoring the Director's PA if you are another employee is never a wise move... ) plus he/she will not really want the train company's or court's bailiffs or debt collectors appearing at the Council offices so has an added incentive to get someone to attend to the matter, one may hope.

Of course it can't possibly be the first time this sort of thing has happened.

I wish the OP good luck with getting it resolved.

This is no doubt well-intentioned advice, but I'm afraid also poor advice.

The local authorities receiving these letters will have no option other than to file them, and if a return address is given to send a stock reply to the sender. It would be a serious disciplinary offence for a local authority officer to divulge any information they may have about someone in this scenario. Any information they do have would be considered confidential, and it's extremely unlikely the letter contains sufficient detail to identify somebody anyway.

Write to the sender of the letters by all means, stating the person does not live at the address and ask for a reply stating no further correspondence relating to the person will be received. But, sending letters to random social services departments is pointless.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is no doubt well-intentioned advice, but I'm afraid also poor advice.

The local authorities receiving these letters will have no option other than to file them, and if a return address is given to send a stock reply to the sender. It would be a serious disciplinary offence for a local authority officer to divulge any information they may have about someone in this scenario. Any information they do have would be considered confidential, and it's extremely unlikely the letter contains sufficient detail to identify somebody anyway.

Write to the sender of the letters by all means, stating the person does not live at the address and ask for a reply stating no further correspondence relating to the person will be received. But, sending letters to random social services departments is pointless.

Quite apart from the fact that the OP has no responsibility whatsoever for this matter. It's not their responsibility to play detective.

Agreed: send back "not at this address, forwarding address unknown" and forget about it.

 

[1955LR]

I had the DVLA sending mail to my address for the previous owner. Having been told they no longer resided at my address the DVLA continued. I then sent then a letter say that if I had any further correspondence , I would treat it as harassment and report it as such. Whether it was this that worked or not I am not sure, but I had no more letters.

 

[WesternLancer]

This is no doubt well-intentioned advice, but I'm afraid also poor advice.

The local authorities receiving these letters will have no option other than to file them, and if a return address is given to send a stock reply to the sender. It would be a serious disciplinary offence for a local authority officer to divulge any information they may have about someone in this scenario. Any information they do have would be considered confidential, and it's extremely unlikely the letter contains sufficient detail to identify somebody anyway.

Write to the sender of the letters by all means, stating the person does not live at the address and ask for a reply stating no further correspondence relating to the person will be received. But, sending letters to random social services departments is pointless.

Not sure if you have worked with / in social services departments (as I have) but I would say actually no. It would be the LA social services dept responsibility to find the staff member who has duty of care for the client concerned (the niece) and engage with them about the matter, what they should then do about it, the consequences of ignoring it etc etc. I did not say the LA would hand over the address to the railway - or even to the family (tho they may hand it over to the courts if they have certain data sharing agreements and depending on the nature of the offence I suspect).

They may also send a stock reply to the sender and file things too.

The OP has made it clear that the letters are addressed to the parent / gaurdian. In the case cited the guardian is in fact the local authority social services department, so this is the correct address that the railway needs to have.

 

[Haywain]

In the case cited the guardian is in fact the local authority social services department, so this is the correct address that the railway needs to have.

However, the OP stated they don't know which local authority so how can they pass it on?

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, the OP stated they don't know which local authority so how can they pass it on?

It also simply isn't their problem to deal with it. If you get a letter addressed to someone who does not live at a property, you can return it "not known", but you don't have to, it's perfectly OK to throw it in the bin unopened. When I moved into this house I got loads, I returned to sender for about the first couple of months then just moved to binning as they have had ample opportunity.

In terms of the OP's niece, if they were convicted in their absence without knowing of the court case, they could apply to have it set aside and retried, so no great issue there.

 

[WesternLancer]

However, the OP stated they don't know which local authority so how can they pass it on?

I think they had an idea of which LA (post #8) but no one answered the phone when they tried to ring the last known social work team. So my advice was to contact the director of the social services department concerned in writing ie the one they were trying to ring. I stand by my advice.

It also simply isn't their problem to deal with it. If you get a letter addressed to someone who does not live at a property, you can return it "not known", but you don't have to, it's perfectly OK to throw it in the bin unopened. When I moved into this house I got loads, I returned to sender for about the first couple of months then just moved to binning as they have had ample opportunity.

In terms of the OP's niece, if they were convicted in their absence without knowing of the court case, they could apply to have it set aside and retried, so no great issue there.

Indeed quite so, but you may reduce hassle at your own address from some correspondents (and I would suggest railway fares enforcement teams, courts and their agents fit this group) by some sort of limited, formal engagement telling them where to go.

 

[Typhoon]

I had the DVLA sending mail to my address for the previous owner. Having been told they no longer resided at my address the DVLA continued. I then sent then a letter say that if I had any further correspondence , I would treat it as harassment and report it as such. Whether it was this that worked or not I am not sure, but I had no more letters.

In such circumstances I would make an official complaint. What complicates this situation is that the miscreant is a family member and, short of any other leads, I am concerned that they will persist. Should the methods above not work and provided evidence of communication existed I think an official complaint would be in order.

I did not say the LA would hand over the address to the railway - or even to the family (tho they may hand it over to the courts if they have certain data sharing agreements and depending on the nature of the offence I suspect).

They may also send a stock reply to the sender and file things too.

The OP has made it clear that the letters are addressed to the parent / gaurdian. In the case cited the guardian is in fact the local authority social services department, so this is the correct address that the railway needs to have.

Exactly. It is quite likely that the local authority cannot give out the address for travelling without a ticket. But they will know, again it won't be the first time that someone in care has committed such an action.

My personal feeling is that is best if the family did not know the address as the niece has, to date, shown little interest in keeping in contact.

However, the OP stated they don't know which local authority so how can they pass it on?

My understanding from #1 and #8 is that she was taken into care by a particular (known) Local Authority but may have moved to another/ others. '<niece's name> was taken into care by <such and such> local authority after which time we have had no communication with her' should suffice. If I am wrong, then the response should be to that effect, however I would have thought it would be the Local Authority where they were living at the time.

We have been asked for help by the OP; the family are clearly being harassed by (representatives of) SouthEastern. There is talk about court cases, I was in magistrates court about half a century ago (as a witness and victim of crime), I wouldn't want to repeat the process, I wouldn't want to have to find what I can and cannot do about a court case that affects someone who is no longer in my care. They have tried Citizen's Advice without luck. I'm not sure that a suggestion of a court appointment by us will be that reassuring.

If it had been a Director of Social Services who had contacted the forum. I would suggest they contacted their legal department and find what they are obliged to do by law and do that, no more or no less. The stock reply suggested by @WesternLancer would seem appropriate. However, it wasn't, it is a family that appears to be desperate to avoid this stream of letters demanding payment; there is an obvious way to make them go away, I and others are suggesting alternatives.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Academic of course but how many letters do Directors of Social Services actually read themselves? How many are filtered and dealt with by their secretaries or delegated down?

 

[Haywain]

the family are clearly being harassed by (representatives of) SouthEastern.

Being sent letters, which are not addressed to an individual, is not harassment. Frustrating it may be, but no more than that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Being sent letters, which are not addressed to an individual, is not harassment. Frustrating it may be, but no more than that.

Indeed.

It is perfectly acceptable to simply put them in the bin.

 

[Class800]

Repeated letter sending is harrassment - let's not dismiss this

 

[Haywain]

Repeated letter sending is harrassment - let's not dismiss this

It really isn't.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think we're going round in circles - but all the advice is correct
a) OP can ignore the letters
b) OP can Rtn them to sender
c) OP can forward them to a known place
d) OP can take it further by writing as suggested to the Guardian and / or the train company, in formal written terms / letter or e-mail if they wish

All of these options are valid. Up to the OP which ones they choose. I see our role as to help suggest them and the pros and cons of each.

OP clearly annoyed and concerned by receiving them or would not have come to the forum for advice.

Academic of course but how many letters do Directors of Social Services actually read themselves? How many are filtered and dealt with by their secretaries or delegated down?

varies of course, but since my Director's e-mail was easy to work out they often seemed to get sent and intercept e-mails even before the PA saw them (esp if things came in out of hours) - would result in onward missives to staff lower down the organisation with one liner requests to 'get stuff sorted out ASAP please'. PA would then subsequently log them onto the formal correspondence monitoring systems and chase ups would appear after target response times if it wasn't clear if something had been done.

 

[Gloster]

I think the OP may be worried about bailiffs and the like causing problems if South Eastern employ them. Although one would hope that South Eastern would use a company at the more reputable end of the market, they may not. A few years back a friend had problems, verging on criminal behaviour, with a company employed by one of the large water companies to obtain payment for a debt incurred by a previous owner/tenant. (This was before the regulations were tidied up a few years ago.)

 

[Dave W]

Academic of course but how many letters do Directors of Social Services actually read themselves? How many are filtered and dealt with by their secretaries or delegated down?

I think the aim here is more generally to solve the problem, not make the director of social services aware. Woe betide the government officer (local or central) who chooses to actively not engage with their director's personal staff. The director might not ever know the email had come in, but it certainly has a better chance of being sorted.

Perhaps a sticking point up until now is that OP proceeded to directly contacting individuals and hasn't given the chance for the council's support response to kick in to action yet. Might a query raised via normal council help channels be of use? It's been a few years since I was in local gov but when I was at a London borough they provided face to face support at a number of locations where it is a lot easier to explain the situation and be directed to the right place [Covid, amongst other things, may have changed that]

Another line to try if a direct email still isn't working and you're struggling to reach other council staff is to approach your local ward councillor. Success varies, but in my role as a school governor I've often found an email to the school's ward councillor can get things moving when an impasse is reached with council officers. Mostly they'll understand the council's structure enough to send the right email to the right senior person to investigate, and things start moving from there.

The alternative of continuing to bat letters away isn't a bad one, but the situation which OP outlined must be a diffcult position to be in and I have sympathy with their desire for a resolution. I suspect OP might themselves want to go a bit further than others would to resolve the matter, rather than just sending "person not here. No forwarding address".