Fareham to London - route query

[GarethW]

A question for the forum - that I can't quite work out the answer to.

Often I travel from Fareham to London midweek, needing to get to Notting Hill for 12. I have a Network Card and as its a leisure trip I need to do it as cheaply as possible.

In an ideal world I'd get the 0928 from Fareham to London with a travelcard, but of course I can't use the Network Card with that, and splits with Micheldever (first station after 1000 on that trip) prove no cheaper.

What I do (thanks to a friend at Fareham who suggested this as the cheapest way) is buy a OffPeak Day from Fareham to Havant (no discount), and then a Travelcard from Emsworth to London (with discount as the train leaves Havant at 1002), starting short at Havant. (The Emsworh fare, presumably set by Southern rather than SWT is a good few quid cheaper), total £25.65 which I am more than happy to pay!

My question concerns the return trip, usually I'm happy to do the reverse journey and change at Havant. However, there are times when I'd prefer to go back via Basingstoke and Eastleigh. Now I know that Emsworth to London isn't a valid route via Eastleigh (from my reading of the routing guide), I'm not sure about Havant but as the Travelcard isn't from Havant perhaps thats not relevant.

So I presumed if I went back via Eastleigh I'd be liable for an "off-route" excess, I've done it a couple of times but have never had my ticket checked. If so, can anyone tell me how much that would be??

However, thinking more about this as I do have a valid combination of tickets for a journey from Fareham to London (neither route specific, both "any permitted") and of course Fareham to London is a valid route via Eastleigh, are my pair of tickets valid for a return via Basingstoke and Eastleigh
Also, would there a further complication thrown into the mix if I did break my journey at Basingstoke (to meet an old mate for a few jars) on the way back.

Actaully I do remember once being "gripped" quite late when doing this journey, iirc the guard couldn't work out whether they were valid, he seemed to think I'd got the wrong train when he saw the Emsworth ticket and then got a bit confused when he saw the Havant to Fareham one, but he stamped them. I was of course very very drunk at the time

Many thanks in advance.

 

[yorkie]

My question concerns the return trip, usually I'm happy to do the reverse journey and change at Havant. However, there are times when I'd prefer to go back via Basingstoke and Eastleigh. Now I know that Emsworth to London isn't a valid route via Eastleigh (from my reading of the routing guide), I'm not sure about Havant but as the Travelcard isn't from Havant perhaps thats not relevant.

So I presumed if I went back via Eastleigh I'd be liable for an "off-route" excess, I've done it a couple of times but have never had my ticket checked. If so, can anyone tell me how much that would be??

Erm, are you asking if Emsworth to London is permitted via Eastleigh?

Using Ford as the appropriate routeing point, permitted routes are on the following maps:
[*]Mapped Routes:
FORD GROUP - LONDON GROUP:

• LB
• LB + SC
• LP
• SC
• SC + LB

As for your question on change of route excess, I am unsure what route you think you can excess to? The only routes are "Southern Only" (not applicable here!) and "Any Permitted". If you deviate from a permitted route, then a new ticket is required and a penalty fare can be issued.

However, thinking more about this as I do have a valid combination of tickets for a journey from Fareham to London (neither route specific, both "any permitted") and of course Fareham to London is a valid route via Eastleigh, are my pair of tickets valid for a return via Basingstoke and Eastleigh

The tickets you hold are valid by the routes defined in the Routeing Guide. See above for the routes your Emsworth to London ticket is valid on. You can combine more than one ticket for one journey - providing the train calls at the station where you change from one ticket to the next. (Obviously you can only change from one ticket to the next at a station that is on a permitted route for both tickets!)

Also, would there a further complication thrown into the mix if I did break my journey at Basingstoke (to meet an old mate for a few jars) on the way back.

BOJ is always permitted on the return portion of Off Peak Returns, and there shouldn't be any BOJ restrictions on Off Peak Day Returns. (Obviously, break of journey is only permitted if you are on a permitted route for the ticket you are using!)

 

[GarethW]

OK - many thanks for the prompt reply Yorkie I take that as a No then as to validity - although the Travelcard ticket is valid via Havant as Havant is a routing point for Emsworth.

I just wondered if the tickets in combination could lead to a different interpretation of validity.


I'm sure I have seen several references to "off-route" excesses in several threads, just wondered if that would be relevant here, does anyone have a definition or example of what they are just for interest.

 

[yorkie]

OK - many thanks for the prompt reply Yorkie I take that as a No then as to validity - although the Travelcard ticket is valid via Havant as Havant is a routing point for Emsworth.

Hmm... you state two things as fact, but the first one I am unsure of. The second is true but meaningless without the word "appropriate".

The question is: Is Havant an appropriate routeing point for an Emsworth to London Zones 1-6?

To do this we have to compare fares. However we are supposed to check single fares. But a Travelcard is, by definition, not a single. So how do we do the fares check? I do not know.

Logically, it should be an appropriate routeing point, because the Anytime Day Travelcard is £59.90 for both.

I just wondered if the tickets in combination could lead to a different interpretation of validity.

A combination of tickets has the same validity as the sum of the individual tickets. The only additional right is that they can be combined as a through journey. The routeing and time restrictions still apply to each individual ticket though, and this may well be considerably more restrictive than a through ticket. If you want the validity of a through ticket, buy a through ticket.

I'm sure I have seen several references to "off-route" excesses in several threads, just wondered if that would be relevant here, does anyone have a definition or example of what they are just for interest.

There are plenty of examples in other threads, but if you have an Any Permitted ticket and wish to travel by a route that is not permitted, then what ticket would you suggest you could be excessed to?

If you deviate from a permitted route, onto a route that is not permitted by any routeing option in the routeing guide, then a new ticket needs to be purchased.

 

[MikeWh]

although the Travelcard ticket is valid via Havant as Havant is a routing point for Emsworth.

Are you sure. It is a routeing point, but does it pass the fare check rule? This is a bit of a trick question though, because it is unclear what ticket types can be checked when dealing with travelcards. Or even what the appropriate routeing point for the London end of an out boundary travelcard is.

 

[GarethW]

I think you're on sticky ground if you try to say an Emsworth-London ticket isn't valid via Havant - as Emsworth is less than 2 miles from Havant, it'll surely pass on shortest route criteria.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmm... you state two things as fact, but the first one I am unsure of. The second is true but meaningless without the word "appropriate".

The question is: Is Havant an appropriate routeing point for an Emsworth to London Zones 1-6?

To do this we have to compare fares. However we are supposed to check single fares. But a Travelcard is, by definition, not a single. So how do we do the fares check? I do not know.

Logically, it should be an appropriate routeing point, because the Anytime Day Travelcard is £59.90 for both.


A combination of tickets has the same validity as the sum of the individual tickets. The only additional right is that they can be combined as a through journey. The routeing and time restrictions still apply to each individual ticket though, and this may well be considerably more restrictive than a through ticket. If you want the validity of a through ticket, buy a through ticket.

Ok I get that point - thanks.


There are plenty of examples in other threads, but if you have an Any Permitted ticket and wish to travel by a route that is not permitted, then what ticket would you suggest you could be excessed to?

I suppose I wondered if because I held tickets for a complete journey I could excess to half the difference in price between a discounted Fareham-London t/c and a discounted Emsworh-London t/c which would be about £2 or so.

If you deviate from a permitted route, onto a route that is not permitted by any routeing option in the routeing guide, then a new ticket needs to be purchased.

Reading sort of between the lines I presume an "off-route" excess would only apply if you had a "named route ticket" and decided to travel back on a different permitted route. They cannot by definition apply to "any permitted" tickets??

 

[John @ home]

I presume an "off-route" excess would only apply if you had a "named route ticket" and decided to travel back on a different permitted route. They cannot by definition apply to "any permitted" tickets?

Sorry, it's not as simple nor as sensible as that. For example Bradford - London via Manchester is not a Permitted Route. But there are two sets of walk-on fares: route Any Permitted and route Manchester.

It's even more complicated than that! Sometimes route Any Permitted costs more than route Manchester.

Bradford Stations - London Terminals route Any Permitted: Off-Peak Return (SVR) £159.50 (Validity code 1U)
Bradford Stations - London Terminals route Manchester: Off-Peak Return (SVR) £89.80 (Validity code 2C)

Sometimes route Manchester costs more than route Any Permitted.

Bradford Stations - London Terminals route Any Permitted: Anytime Return (SOR) £244.00
Bradford Stations - London Terminals route Manchester: Anytime Return (SOR) £298.00

This leads to a classic statement in The National Routeing Guide in Detail (page F17)

If the “Any Permitted” fare is less than the “Manchester” routed fare, the ticketholder may not go via Manchester. If the “Any Permitted” fare is more than the “Manchester” routed fare it may be used via Manchester.

 

[yorkie]

I think you're on sticky ground if you try to say an Emsworth-London ticket isn't valid via Havant - as Emsworth is less than 2 miles from Havant, it'll surely pass on shortest route criteria.

Well, it was you who brought routeing points into it! I don't think any of us were saying "it's not valid", but you said that " the Travelcard ticket is valid via Havant as Havant is a routing point for Emsworth", which is a statement that doesn't really make sense unless you add the word "appropriate" and even then you have to have more knowledge than I do about how to determine appropriate routeing points for Travelcards to be so certain!

Reading sort of between the lines I presume an "off-route" excess would only apply if you had a "named route ticket" and decided to travel back on a different permitted route.

Yes, that's right.

They cannot by definition apply to "any permitted" tickets??

Erm, not quite, as John has said above. Unfortunately rail fares are not based on logic.