Ferrying vehicles between depots and operators - who drives em ?

[Wyrleybart]

Please pardon what is probably a very simple question, because I am in the rail industry with probablymany differences. There seems to be quite a movement of vehicles between garages / depots, sometimes timetable changes, sometimes reliveries, sometimes new vehicles or transfers. In the recent times some rail companies bring in specialists like GBRf or ROG to move trains, rather than the fleet operator, and I wondered if similar applies to bus companies.

For example I notice Rotala seem to be currently moving buses out of Manchester as new ones arrive, so do Rotala have a few drivers dedicated to vehicle transfers exclusively ?

Interested to hear

 

[Flange Squeal]

I can only speak for the division of a large group I have worked for, and an independent. I suspect it varies a lot though, depending on the distances between depots, staffing levels, sizes of depots, and other variables etc.

The large group operator would typically just be drivers moving stuff as required on overtime or a "spare" driver running it over (or more often a "spare" driver cover the shift of a chosen driver). If it was a case of several vehicles moving to another depot but not an equal number coming back, then either someone would follow in a ferry car and bring the group back, or if just one/two vehicles sometimes get a train back (or vice versa if picking some up but not taking anything in exchange). That very much varied depending where the vehicles were going obviously. If it was a swap of a similar number of vehicles then drivers would just take them over and bring the "new" ones back. Occasionally they'd be tied in with rail replacement work, but this only happened a few times and was generally quite coincidental. For example Depot A wanted to swap some vehicles with Depot B, so Depot A put them out on rail replacement work one weekend that happened to be not too far from Depot B, so at some point during the day the vehicles would be swapped (in one case the end of the rail replacement work terminated at Depot B's nearest rail station so on a layover the buses simply drove to the depot and the driver took the swaps back out). The drivers had to inform the controlling rail replacement organisation of the vehicle swaps though as they like to know which vehicles are out, and obviously requiring such luck of everything falling into place was extremely rare. New vehicle deliveries from Alexander Dennis were generally delivered by drivers from the manufacturer, rather than our drivers going to the factory to collect them. Repaints were done in-house at another depot, so once a batch was started, that was generally a driver take one for repaint and bring the repainted one back, and repeat until the batch done. Sometimes fitters would transfer the buses themselves, sometimes with someone following in one of the engineering vans to bring their colleague back. A lot of our swaps seemed to get done on Sundays when work was lighter.

The independent I have worked for was only very small, so was generally one of the bosses doing it. For example catch a train a dealer to collect a purchase and drive it back themselves.

 

[Lewisham2221]

There are also agency type companies who will supply drivers for these sort of movements. This was the case when a batch of vehicles from my depot were being sent away to an external contractor for refurbishment. @Flange Squeal has summed it up pretty well though, and it is usually spare/overtime drivers or management etc grades who do most of the vehicle moves.

 

[OptareOlympus]

Usually it will be the Shunters, Yard hands or depot drivers that carry out most of the depot to depot movements. There will normally be a two way swap taking place (including any trips to and from paint shops) so return travel isn't an issue. New deliveries are normally dealer arranged using the companies or agencies that supply trade plate drivers. Longer distance group transfers are usually rest day working drivers.

There will always be more complex logistical arrangements for types of movements. It's generally a very staff intensive, and costly part of running buses, given they are non revenue earning journeys.

I spent many years at Ensignbus and so here is a typical example of how used bus collections were undertaken:

4 buses to be collected from Stagecoach in Inverness and brought back to Purfleet in Essex.

Day 1: Sign on around 0400. Yard hand or spare driver would drive collection drivers in a van to Gatwick Airport or Stansted Airport for a flight around 0800. Upon arrival at Inverness airport, a one way hire car would then collected and used to reach the Stagecoach depot. This car would then be left there for collection by the hire company. The buses would then be checked over, walk rounds etc, watered, oiled and a route and plan decided upon amongst the drivers. By 1800, the convoy would be somewhere near the border and the day would end, overnighting in a motorway hotel with suitable secure parking.

Day 2: All being well, a day spent on the road to reach Purfleet. Occasionally it would be necessary to overnight once more if driving hours had run out or were close to running out.

An alternative depending on how many drivers were needed would see a a one way hire car used between Purfleet and the collection/delivery depots. A lot of Ensign collections to and from Cornwall, the North of England and some Scottish runs were done this way, although they would still require an overnight stop. These collections or deliveries were all under the scope of EU regs so were all carried out by drivers from the Ensign private hire/rail replacement pool. Local bus network drivers never undertook any of this work.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Sometimes it's basically anyone with a licence... I've worked for a couple of "big groups" and an independent (in engineering) and have done that sort of thing loads of times...

 

[Wyrleybart]

I can only speak for the division of a large group I have worked for, and an independent. I suspect it varies a lot though, depending on the distances between depots, staffing levels, sizes of depots, and other variables etc.

The large group operator would typically just be drivers moving stuff as required on overtime or a "spare" driver running it over (or more often a "spare" driver cover the shift of a chosen driver). If it was a case of several vehicles moving to another depot but not an equal number coming back, then either someone would follow in a ferry car and bring the group back, or if just one/two vehicles sometimes get a train back (or vice versa if picking some up but not taking anything in exchange). That very much varied depending where the vehicles were going obviously. If it was a swap of a similar number of vehicles then drivers would just take them over and bring the "new" ones back. Occasionally they'd be tied in with rail replacement work, but this only happened a few times and was generally quite coincidental. For example Depot A wanted to swap some vehicles with Depot B, so Depot A put them out on rail replacement work one weekend that happened to be not too far from Depot B, so at some point during the day the vehicles would be swapped (in one case the end of the rail replacement work terminated at Depot B's nearest rail station so on a layover the buses simply drove to the depot and the driver took the swaps back out). The drivers had to inform the controlling rail replacement organisation of the vehicle swaps though as they like to know which vehicles are out, and obviously requiring such luck of everything falling into place was extremely rare. New vehicle deliveries from Alexander Dennis were generally delivered by drivers from the manufacturer, rather than our drivers going to the factory to collect them. Repaints were done in-house at another depot, so once a batch was started, that was generally a driver take one for repaint and bring the repainted one back, and repeat until the batch done. Sometimes fitters would transfer the buses themselves, sometimes with someone following in one of the engineering vans to bring their colleague back. A lot of our swaps seemed to get done on Sundays when work was lighter.

The independent I have worked for was only very small, so was generally one of the bosses doing it. For example catch a train a dealer to collect a purchase and drive it back themselves.

Thanks very much. Really interesting.
On the subject of new bus deliveries, I have worked in central Birmingham for over 20 years. I used to use the M6 north when finishing off night shift. I would be driving north junction 6 and junction 11 between about 0715 and 0740ish and would very often see a pair of shiny new London Transport red deckers southbound between 7 and 9. Their timekeeping was uncanny so I assume they nightstopped somewhere in Staffordshire, at maybe Hilton Park services or similar.

 

[RJ]

Probably casual or spare staff with a PCV licence. These moves can affect drivers hours if done by a driver on a rota. I used to round up buses from around one business on a Friday night for the weekend’s rail replacement, I and the team on this mission work were all casual agency drivers.

They can also draft in trade platers like me to do moves particularly when the vehicles are entering or leaving the business.

 

[Geordie driver]

In my experience, drivers and fitters on rest days for overtime.

Once did Newcastle to Toddington services, 2 fitters and ten drivers down in a mini bus to pick up 10 ex London MCWs.

Left Newcastle at 6 am, picked up buses at Toddington at midday ( minibus would do 60 mph) then best part of ten hours to do the 250 mile return journey at
30 mph.

Long day but easy money, it was February and I had wrapped up warm, brought food for the return trip and had a radio with me.

I did the 10 hour return journey with one short toilet stop.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In my experience, drivers and fitters on rest days for overtime.

Once did Newcastle to Toddington services, 2 fitters and ten drivers down in a mini bus to pick up 10 ex London MCWs.

Left Newcastle at 6 am, picked up buses at Toddington at midday ( minibus would do 60 mph) then best part of ten hours to do the 250 mile return journey at
30 mph.

Long day but easy money, it was February and I had wrapped up warm, brought food for the return trip and had a radio with me.

I did the 10 hour return journey with one short toilet stop.

I know of a similar one where a batch of "well used" vehicles were brought up from Southern England. Think it was a two dayer given the length of the journey but done the same way.

My late father did a few of them too. On one, he was the car driver. On another, he had to drive a Dodge S56 for about 5 hours....

 

[Geordie driver]

I know of a similar one where a batch of "well used" vehicles were brought up from Southern England. Think it was a two dayer given the length of the journey but done the same way.

My late father did a few of them too. On one, he was the car driver. On another, he had to drive a Dodge S56 for about 5 hours....

Thing is, they were still better than the ex Greater Manchester Fleetlines they replaced.

 

[JD2168]

Sometimes it can be done by swapping a bus over at one end a route if transferring. When the 12 plate B9TL’s that are now red were swapped for StreetLite’s First used the X78 with the buses swapped over at Sheffield Interchange.

 

[PG]

A related question for operators who use their own drivers to collect buses (or coaches) from another (unconnected) operation or a dealer without using trade plates:

​

Are the buses required to display an O licence disc?​

My gut feeling is yes.
When I last did this type of movement back in the early days of deregulation such technicalities were honoured in the breach!

 

[Leyland Bus]

If the vehicle being transferred was going to a different opco, then the o license was removed prior. The transfer isn't for hire or reward so an O licence isn't necessary.

 

[PG]

The transfer isn't for hire or reward so an O licence isn't necessary.

Thank you, I think I was having a senior moment as you are indeed correct

 

[Leyland Bus]

Thank you, I think I was having a senior moment as you are indeed correct

Oh trust me, I know the feeling..!

 

[JD2168]

When the deckers went from South Yorkshire to Glasgow in exchange for singles they were swapped over at the border between England & Scotland.

 

[820KDV]

When I was a Scheduler what couldn't be achieved for new out-station timetables by getting the Inspectors to swap buses on final journeys on the Saturday before was usually sorted out by me and someone else from the office on the Sunday. The distances weren't great, but the logistics could be complex t do it in the least time (we didn't get paid for our time outside our normal hours).

I recall that our company employed extra drivers specifically to take buses to and from the paint shop when local liveries were being replaced by Barbie 2, and I remember being told that back in 1986 Plymouth Citybus were selling off old Atlanteans and the purchaser asked if the Plymouth drivers could take them as far as Exeter Services on the M5 as their own drivers would be out of hours if they did the full trip home. Citybus duly obliged and the new owner's drivers collected them and drove them straight back to Plymouth. The purchaser was Plympton Coachlines and no way would Citybus have sold them to a competitor, if they had known! The "drivers hours" tale and an Exeter swap was enough of a false scent to seal the deal.

 

[Titfield]

I worked for a NBC coach operating company in the late 70s early 80s and nearly all the male office staff held a PSV licence and were used for odd movements etc so that it didnt muck up rostering / drivers hours etc.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Fascinating thread and I've so often wondered about this, particularly where the big groups like stagecoach send buses for example from Dover or Ashford all the way to East Scotland, a journey which must take a good 12 hours in a vehicle limited to 62 miles an hour and which might start to Spring issues at the site of so much faster running on motorways

 

[Leyland Bus]

Fascinating thread and I've so often wondered about this, particularly where the big groups like stagecoach send buses for example from Dover or Ashford all the way to East Scotland, a journey which must take a good 12 hours in a vehicle limited to 62 miles an hour and which might start to Spring issues at the site of so much faster running on motorways

Sometimes, if it's a huge distance, it's usually quicker to have them towed there...

 

[Wyrleybart]

Meant to mention this last week, but cannot remember which day it was. I saw either six of seven Enviro 400s in a convoy heading M6 southbound approaching Jn 6. They all seemed to be a similar livery but I think some had "Manchester" in big letters on their lower flanks. No idea where they were going.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Fascinating thread and I've so often wondered about this, particularly where the big groups like stagecoach send buses for example from Dover or Ashford all the way to East Scotland, a journey which must take a good 12 hours in a vehicle limited to 62 miles an hour and which might start to Spring issues at the site of so much faster running on motorways

A company called Ben Transport, based in Leyland, have been known to facilitate movements at Stagecoach such as these recently

 

[Blindtraveler]

A company called Ben Transport, based in Leyland, have been known to facilitate movements at Stagecoach such as these recently

Must be quite a cushy number for drivers with a full license but who have had enough of or for some reason can no longer do passenger or private higher work in the same way as they once did

 

[dodecahedron67]

Meant to mention this last week, but cannot remember which day it was. I saw either six of seven Enviro 400s in a convoy heading M6 southbound approaching Jn 6. They all seemed to be a similar livery but I think some had "Manchester" in big letters on their lower flanks. No idea where they were going.

Colchester & Essex

 

[WibbleWobble]

A company called Ben Transport, based in Leyland, have been known to facilitate movements at Stagecoach such as these recently

There's a couple of such companies - Olympus is another and has been doing a lot of Bee Network related movements and deliveries; they do a lot of the Alexander Dennis deliveries, but also transferred the Go North West loanees to and from their home depots, moved the Oxford hybrids, and moved the brand new E400EVs from storage at Wigan to Oldham.

 

[Busman84]

If it is depot to depot sometimes the engineering side (including shunting staff) will shift buses overnight or following day and if straight swap take vehicles from the other garage back the way. Perhaps two garages will be involved. Other times could see both drivers and the likes of office staff/inspectors do overtime that pick up or transfer vehicles. Some buses that have been refurbished go on a low loader back to where they are based or to a new home.