Fined by Merseyrail as I had “come too far” without a ticket. Should I fight it?

[JBuchananGB]

I tend to agree with @furlong. You intended to pay at Sandhills. You approached a member of staff intending to do so. You had not passed through a barrier. You have a photo of the "closed" sign at Bebington. Send that to Merseyrail to give them the chance to withdraw the invitation for an out of court settlement. Pay them £4 or whatever the proper fare would have been.

 

[fandroid]

Mention the situation at Liverpool Central, where it's normal practice to purchase tickets off staff at the barriers

 

[northwichcat]

The NRCoT requires you to purchase a ticket at the earliest reasonable opportunity in the circumstances described by the OP.

In the circumstances described by the OP, the train operator has authorised passengers to pay at destination.

Arguably for the OP's journey, that would be at Moorfields given there are 10tph between there and Sandhills most of the time.

Even if it took a total of 15 minutes for him to get up to the ticket office, queue to buy a ticket and then back down to the other platform?

Whatever the frequency of service is, it doesn't allow for how well staffed a ticket office is in relation to the number of passengers.

 

[scrapy]

You aren't expected to miss a connection to purchase, but otherwise it must be at the first opportunity. With 8-12tph from Central to Sandhills, though, the case for not paying at the change point here is a bit weak.

Moorfields is the most likely place to change trains on this journey. At Moorfields it's probably a 10 minute round trip from the platforms to buy a ticket. As you aren't supposed to miss a connection, the fact that there are 8-12 tph makes the OPs case stronger as going to the ticket office means they certain to miss 1 or 2 trains.

As M28361M says, at Sandhills you would only likely see the ticket office is between the platforms if you were using the lift or if you alight from the front of the train. If you leave the train towards the rear there is no signage indicating the location of the ticket office and you would intuitively head down the stairs into the subway expecting to pass the ticket office on the way out. This would be the case in quiet conditions and would be exacerbated by crowds

You had not gone too far because you could see that the "Merseyrail guards" were there who could obviously have taken payment from you? You had permission to pay at your destination and that's what you were ready to do when speaking to them?

Absolutely, although the OP would not have been able to see them from the platform, as they would have been either in the subway or outside the front of the station, but the case that the ticket office is not visible from the platform for many passengers should be the main point of defence for the OP and this does seem to be entrapment by Merseyrail. (I remember threads on this forum a few years ago complaining about similar at Glossop before barriers were installed with Northern doing similar, in my opinion Glossop office was well signed and visable, however Sandhills most certainly isn't).

 

[Haywain]

Absolutely, although the OP would not have been able to see them from the platform, as they would have been either in the subway or outside the front of the station, but the case that the ticket office is not visible from the platform for many passengers should be the main point of defence for the OP and this does seem to be entrapment by Merseyrail.

But there must be signage on the platform indicating where to go for tickets (Google Maps suggests that there is), and that goes against not knowing where the ticket office is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But there must be signage on the platform indicating where to go for tickets (Google Maps suggests that there is), and that goes against not knowing where the ticket office is.

I think in a football crowd it's fairly easy to miss such signage.

 

[YorkRanger]

Moorfields is the most likely place to change trains on this journey. At Moorfields it's probably a 10 minute round trip from the platforms to buy a ticket. As you aren't supposed to miss a connection, the fact that there are 8-12 tph makes the OPs case stronger as going to the ticket office means they certain to miss 1 or 2 trains.

Would minimum connection times (MCT) come into consideration though in regards to "missing 1 or 2 trains"? The MCT at Moorfields is 10 minutes.

Trains from Bebington arrive at Moorfields at XX11, XX18, XX26, XX41, XX48, XX56.
Trains to Sandhills from Moorfields depart at XX04, XX07, XX11, XX19, XX26, XX34, XX37, XX41, XX49, XX52, XX56.

Arguably the connections from a Bebington service to a Sandhills service don't meet the MCT anyway (i.e. arriving on the XX11, your next valid service meeting with the MCT would be the XX26, and not the XX19 even though you could probably get to the platform in time).

But there must be signage on the platform indicating where to go for tickets (Google Maps suggests that there is), and that goes against not knowing where the ticket office is.

There is signage above the exit staircase at Sandhills, but as @Bletchleyite has pointed out, it is incredibly easy to miss in a football crowd, as it is well above head height. It also could be considered mildly confusing as it has straight on arrows, which could be interpreted as going down the stairs to someone who is not familiar with the station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would minimum connection times (MCT) come into consideration though in regards to "missing 1 or 2 trains"? The MCT at Moorfields is 10 minutes.

I would be inclined to say yes. The MCT is the connection you're entitled to get, earlier is a bonus. If that would give you plenty of time to sort a ticket then you should.

 

[kristiang85]

If you hadn't crossed any barriers, I would think its wholly reasonable to walk up to a member of staff and ask where the ticket office is, and go back and sort it. I'm not sure how you can be penalised for exiting without paying for a ticket when you haven't even exited yet? I know there are some who might chance it, but this is surely an occasion where the customer must be given the benefit of the doubt.

The fact you had photographic proof of the instruction to 'pay at destination' means you knew you might be asked this, and weren't just chancing it for a free ticket.

Merseyrail are basically penalising you for not providing proper ticket buying facilities at the start of your journey and assuming you'd know a slightly unusual station layout at your destination whilst in a crowd (and its it not easy to go against a crowd once you're in it!) I'd be very cheesed off if I was in your shoes.

 

[spag23]

The instruction at the starting station was to "pay at the destination". It did not specify that this had to be at the destination's ticket office. So approaching the gateline staff was complaint with the instruction.

 

[WirralBeb]

Apologies if this is the incorrect place to post but I am a bit desperate for advice. What are the implications if I try and fight the fine? I can’t really afford to pay it right now.

I recently travelled with Merseyrail, my local train operator. They still run a buy a ticket at a booth service at my local station. At my local station there is one counter. At the time of travelling my local stations only ticket booth was closed with a sign saying ‘pay at destination’ This is usually a regular occurrence at this station. There is no self service and no way to pay for a ticket online.

I made my way to an unfamiliar station with no ticket intending to pay at the destination (I was travelling to watch a football match) As there were large crowds I followed them assuming I would pass this stations ticket office on the way.

Instead it was the exit with Merseyrail guards ready and waiting. They asked me for my ticket so I stated it was pay at destination and had a photo to prove it. They said I had gone past the ticket office. I apologised and said I would go back and pay and I didn’t realise I had missed it. At this point the guard said I had “come too far” and had to be fined. They were quite rude and it was quite embarrassing. I didn’t kick up a fuss as there were police in attendance. It was a very disheartening experience where I felt like I was being treated like a criminal.

I had absolutely no intention of trying to bunk a £4 fair. I legitimately didn’t realise I had gone past the ticket office. I’ve used this service for 30+ years. I don’t mean to come across holy but usually at the time of travel I’d be volunteering at my local tour centre, not bunking fares.

I have received a letter saying I must settle an out of court fine of £125 or be taken to court. The letter sets out no process to appeal. I’ve reached out to Merseyrail and they have given me an email address to appeal the fine but already they are not making it easy.

I find this a very worrying practice as there were many other who were caught out travelling to the game. How often are they doing this and making money from fines with threatening letters?

I’ve added the letter I received and a response to the email I sent to appeal the fine.

Thanks in advance

I can’t believe I left this out, and thank you so much for everyone’s replies so far. I have gone through them about together a letter to appeal. I left out the following:

When I got off the train the exit was straight ahead so I assumed the office would be there, I know don’t assume. I didn’t realise the ticket office is on the island near the end of the train. When I got towards the gate I did speak to a member of staff about paying at destination. They advised me to speak to the 2nd guard who was the one who fine me for coming too far. Does that change anything?

If my appeal letter does not work, does anyone have any advice on whether it can be referred for review elsewhere? E.g an independent body

 

[Bertie the bus]

When I got off the train the exit was straight ahead so I assumed the office would be there, I know don’t assume. I didn’t realise the ticket office is on the island near the end of the train.

I can't see how this bit of information would help your case and could potentially do the opposite. I believe there are 2 signs on each platform at Sandhills indicating where the ticket office is. It could be considered reasonable for someone who has been told to purchase a ticket at their destination to look for signs and not just assume it is at the exit. We're not talking about a large multi-platform station here like Lime Street. It has 1 island platform.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think this is a clear case of keeping it simple.

There is a defence to Byelaw 18.2 if there was a sign directing you to travel without buying a ticket at the origin. The Byelaw doesn’t refer to intent to avoid the fare. The Byelaw doesn’t refer to buying a ticket at the interchange station. The Byelaw doesn’t refer to buying a ticket at an obscure ticket office in an unfamiliar station in amongst a huge football crowd before approaching the exit barrier (whether that is a mechanical barrier or a human one).

Any response should be simple. The letter should explain the sign, include a copy of the photo of the sign, and explain you were stopped as you attempted to purchase a ticket at the destination. The letter should either include the fare due or it should request details of how to pay. The letter should invite Merseyrail to consider the matter closed.

I would absolutely fight this one. It isn’t uncommon for Merseyrail to behave like this, although normally they try and misrepresent RoRA as saying something it does not.

I also consider it troubling in the extreme that this was not dealt with by Penalty Fare. I would assume this is deliberate, as being unable to buy a ticket is a as much clearer defence to a Penalty Fare.

 

[John Palmer]

I can’t believe I left this out, and thank you so much for everyone’s replies so far. I have gone through them about together a letter to appeal. I left out the following:

When I got off the train the exit was straight ahead so I assumed the office would be there, I know don’t assume. I didn’t realise the ticket office is on the island near the end of the train. When I got towards the gate I did speak to a member of staff about paying at destination. They advised me to speak to the 2nd guard who was the one who fine me for coming too far. Does that change anything?

If my appeal letter does not work, does anyone have any advice on whether it can be referred for review elsewhere? E.g an independent body

If the emboldened passage accurately reflects what took place then you should certainly draw Merseyrail's attention to it because it tends to counter the points I have emphasised in the extract from @Titfield's post below:

He therefore knew without doubt that upon arrival he had to pay for his ticket. It was his responsibility to ensure he navigated his way to the ticket office and purchase a ticket. Whether he had visited this station before or not is irrelevant. If he had, he would have known where the ticket office was and should have gone there. If he had not, he should have asked a member of staff or fellow passenger for the location of the ticket office or followed the signage rather than "following the crowd". It was obvious that the crowd was heading to the exit. Relying on what happens at Liverpool Central, where according to the OP, there is a member of staff who sells tickets seems to me to be a risky practice given that if the member of staff is not there, or there is a change of policy the passenger is very much at risk of what has happened on this occasion.

The OP states that he has been using this service for 30 years. This makes it more unlikely that either he did not know where the ticket office was or that he did not know that there are some stations where there are means of exiting a station that does not take you past a ticket office. The onus is on the honest passenger not to go "the wrong way" but to (ascertain where and) go to the ticket office.

As investigator as well as prosecutor of a possible offence, Merseyrail is subject to the Code of Practice in respect of criminal investigations that came into being as a consequence of Section 23 of the Criminal Procedure and Investigations Act 1996. Paragraph 3.5 of that Code bears repeating:

"In conducting an investigation, the investigator should pursue all reasonable lines of inquiry, whether these point towards or away from the suspect. What is reasonable in each case will depend on the particular circumstances. ..."

If Merseyrail does prosecute you, the only 'independent body' that will be addressing the matter will be the Magistrates Court that hears your case. The decision on whether or not to prosecute lies in Merseyrail's hands, and cannot be pre-empted by appeal to an independent body - there is none. If you plead not guilty to the Bylaw charge threatened, you can give evidence of what took place, including your interaction with the staff member who directed you to speak to the '2nd guard'. Having given Merseyrail prior notice of that interaction, its witnesses can be cross-examined as to what steps (if any) were taken in accordance with the Code of Practice to verify it. A failure by Merseyrail to take any such steps is a point that may tell in your favour.

There is no preordained ground for attaching less weight to the evidence you give than to any other witness' evidence. A dated and timestamped photograph of the 'Pay at destination' notice should be compelling evidence that ticket purchasing facilities were not available at your station of origin. Others have drawn attention to the defence to the charge made available to you by Bylaw 18.3. Testimony that you approached a staff member to enquire how you might pay your fare must be weighed by the court as evidence that your were not seeking to avoid payment at your destination. Any reasonable doubt the court may then have as to whether you were seeking to avoid such payment must be resolved in your favour, so leading to an acquittal. Being in the press of a crowd, unfamiliarity with the station and the approach made to an official about ticket purchase are all relevant to the creation of such a doubt in the mind of the magistrate.

 

[scrapy]

I can't see how this bit of information would help your case and could potentially do the opposite. I believe there are 2 signs on each platform at Sandhills indicating where the ticket office is. It could be considered reasonable for someone who has been told to purchase a ticket at their destination to look for signs and not just assume it is at the exit. We're not talking about a large multi-platform station here like Lime Street. It has 1 island platform.

This image shows the signage at Sandhills. The OP will have stepped off the train on the platform on the left of the picture. The ticket office is located further along the platform behind the staircase.

This image was taken when the station is quiet. Imagine being in a crowd of several hundred people who are all heading towards the exit. A quick glance at that sign which is above the stairs and has an arrow pointing forwards suggests that the stairs are the way to the ticket office.

When the passenger gets to the bottom of the stairs they encounter the RPIs who tell them they've come too far.

 

[Bertie the bus]

That image doesn't show the signage. It shows 1 sign. There are signs on the platform with an arrow pointing toward the end of the platform for the ticket office and then another sign pointing at the ticket office.

I also doubt the RPIs were at the bottom of the stairs. That would have been a safety hazard. To get off Sandhills you have to go down the stairs, through the subway and then along a walkway to the street. I expect the RPIs were at the end of the walkway.

 

[Titfield]

The OP has provided a statement that does provoke further thought though this is uncorroborated:

I left out the following:

When I got off the train the exit was straight ahead so I assumed the office would be there, I know don’t assume. I didn’t realise the ticket office is on the island near the end of the train. When I got towards the gate I did speak to a member of staff about paying at destination. They advised me to speak to the 2nd guard who was the one who fine me for coming too far. Does that change anything?

One would wonder and indeed the Magistrates may well wonder why the OP didnt bring this attention of the 2nd Guard who fined him or indeed why he seemingly didnt object to the imposition of a fine at the time. He may well not have wished to kick up a fuss but surely an honest, articulate and well mannered passenger would indeed have certainly endeavoured to explain themselves rather than just meekly accept a fine particularly given that he had proof (the photo) of an instruction to pay at the destination and thus was travelling without a ticket but with express permission?

It will certainly be interesting to see how this is resolved.

 

[island]

There can be no question that the passenger has a good defence to a byelaw 18.2 charge.

As such the passenger's response should be to send a cheque for the fare due (if it has not been paid) – as continuing to not pay this amount could later be presented as evidence of intent to avoid payment of the fare and form the basis of a S5 RRA charge.

 

[SteveM70]

One would wonder and indeed the Magistrates may well wonder why the OP didnt bring this attention of the 2nd Guard who fined him or indeed why he seemingly didnt object to the imposition of a fine at the time. He may well not have wished to kick up a fuss but surely an honest, articulate and well mannered passenger would indeed have certainly endeavoured to explain themselves rather than just meekly accept a fine particularly given that he had proof (the photo) of an instruction to pay at the destination and thus was travelling without a ticket but with express permission?

These were Merseyrail RPIs weren't they? Not sure how amenable these particular ones would have been to an explanation from an articulate and well mannered passenger, but the anecdotal evidence suggests they can be a little heavy handed

 

[Tetchytyke]

the Magistrates may well wonder why the OP didnt bring this attention of the 2nd Guard who fined him or indeed why he seemingly didnt object to the imposition of a fine at the time.

I suspect the OP did object. Which is why the fabled “attitude test” resulted in an upgrade from a Penalty Fare to an MG11.

That image doesn't show the signage. It shows 1 sign.

It shows one sign which shows that the ticket office is straight ahead. It is reasonable to assume that straight ahead means down the stairs to the exit, given that most stations have a ticket office at the entrance/exit and not halfway down a platform.

Remember that “reasonable” is what an ordinary person would interpret, given their knowledge.

There’s also no requirement on the sign to purchase at a ticket office. Merseyrail’s Accessibility Policy provides, for people with impairments, that “if your are unable to buy a ticket…you will be able to buy at your destination station or from one of our revenue protection staff”. Although not directly relevant to the OP’s position, it is interesting to note that Merseyrail in official policies consider an RPI as point of sale.

I am genuinely unsure why you seem quite so determined to argue that the OP is in the wrong here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There’s also no requirement on the sign to purchase at a ticket office. Merseyrail’s Accessibility Policy provides, for people with impairments, that “if your are unable to buy a ticket…you will be able to buy at your destination station or from one of our revenue protection staff”. Although not directly relevant to the OP’s position, it is interesting to note that Merseyrail in official policies consider an RPI as point of sale.

That's how they do it if you rock up at Central without a ticket because of a closed booking office. I posted a thread a while back regarding them not knowing the difference between a Saveaway and a day ticket.

Sandhills is an extremely unusual case (is Rochdale the only other one on the whole network nationally?) where the booking office is installed inside what would nominally be considered (or is in Rochdale's case) a gateline? (Before it was refurbished the Sandhills booking office was a little hatch at the point where the stairs change direction to go into the subway).

 

[Haywain]

(is Rochdale the only other one on the whole network nationally?)

No. Bidston has a ticket office in the waiting room on the island platform.

 

[urbophile]

I can't believe that some of the same people who are constantly criticising Merseyrail for the fiasco with the new trains, should be so quick to defend their draconian ticketing policy. Especially considering their insistence on paper tickets, it is unreasonable not to have ticket vending machines at every station, especially as staffed offices are likely to be closed without notice. (This is something that happens more and more frequently these days).

The layout of Sandhills station is confusing. I've never needed to buy a ticket there but as I recollect, the ticket office is at the far end of a waiting room on the island platform. If you had arrived on the station from the street you would probably find it easily enough; but stepping off a train, along with a crowd of people being herded straight off the platform, it must have been easy to miss. I would tend to assume that, like many similar stations (indeed, Bebington) the office would be located at the lower level near the street entrance. The OP clearly expected either that they would be walking past the office, or that (as at Liverpool Central) additional ticket sellers would be waiting at the bottom of the ramp.

In such a scenario the presumption of innocence on the part of the OP is overwhelming.

Merseyrail could be, and indeed has been until recently, a shining example of an efficient urban network. Sadly these days it seems to be shooting itself in the foot over and over again.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It shows one sign which shows that the ticket office is straight ahead. It is reasonable to assume that straight ahead means down the stairs to the exit, given that most stations have a ticket office at the entrance/exit and not halfway down a platform.

It isn't reasonable to assume that at all. In fact it is reasonable to assume nobody would look at that sign. There is a sign, on the platform, near the steps which clearly shows you need to carry on down the platform for the ticket office. A few yards further on there is another sign which points to the ticket office. The distances involved are small and if the platform was that crowded with football supporters the flow would have been slow moving and, if somebody was looking for the ticket office, it would have been very difficult to miss both signs.

That photo is very poor quality and it appears closely cropped. presumably so the other signs aren't visible.

There’s also no requirement on the sign to purchase at a ticket office. Merseyrail’s Accessibility Policy provides, for people with impairments, that “if your are unable to buy a ticket…you will be able to buy at your destination station or from one of our revenue protection staff”. Although not directly relevant to the OP’s position, it is interesting to note that Merseyrail in official policies consider an RPI as point of sale.

That is quite an absurd point. The OP doesn't claim they suffer from any disability but they do state they have never used Sandhills station before. If somebody has never used Sandhills before then arguing that they intended to buy a ticket from an RPI at the exit is just nonsense.

 

[185]

Having taken a closer look at the sign, it could be implied that even if someone did manage to notice the sign, stood directly infront of it, the two up arrows, suggesting ahead instructs the passenger to proceed ahead - which is into the steps. Regardless of this, it is my opinion that Merseyrail are misusing the Merseyrail specific bylaws for financial gain and some intervention is needed soon. The nonsense of not allowing e-tickets should also be recognised as a revenue raising scam - with Serco/TUG entrapping honest paying customers for financial gain.

The gutless PTE Merseytravel, supposed to oversee this contractor, needs closing down.

Edit
Photo removed see below post

 

[Haywain]

The picture upthread really is rather poor, so here's a screengrab from Google Maps:

​

 

[Tetchytyke]

It isn't reasonable to assume that at all.

As I said before, I genuinely do not understand why you are going to such great pains to defend Merseyrail here. I don’t think it is helpful to the OP. The station layout at Sandhills is unusual, the ticket office isn’t where you expect it to be, and the OP approached the RPI to buy a ticket.

I would interpret the sign in the way others on this thread have- that the ticket office is at street level where you would expect it to be. We know that isn’t actually what the sign is saying, but the test is ‘what the man on the Clapham Omnibus would think’, to paraphrase the late Lord Denning.

If somebody has never used Sandhills before then arguing that they intended to buy a ticket from an RPI at the exit is just nonsense.

My point is simple- approaching an RPI to buy a ticket is entirely in keeping with Merseyrail policy for others who have been unable to buy a ticket at their origin. It does not demonstrate intent to evade a fare.

The OP will need to reflect on their attitude to risk if Merseyrail refuse to back down, but my advice continues to stand. A polite letter either sending a cheque or enquiring how to make payment of the fare, together with a copy of the photo they took at their origin.

 

[SteveM70]

is Rochdale the only other one on the whole network nationally?

It’s been a while since I was there but I think blackburn is similar

The picture upthread really is rather poor, so here's a screengrab from Google Maps:

View attachment 151954​

So the arrows for the ticket office are the same as for one exit but different to the other, but I’d say it’s pretty clear the arrows pointing downwards are for the stairs and therefore it’s clear the ticket office isn’t in that direction.

It would be better though if the arrows for the ticket office were more like this, ie “out and along” not “straight ahead”

 

[Bertie the bus]

As I said before, I genuinely do not understand why you are going to such great pains to defend Merseyrail here. I don’t think it is helpful to the OP. The station layout at Sandhills is unusual, the ticket office isn’t where you expect it to be, and the OP approached the RPI to buy a ticket.

I would interpret the sign in the way others on this thread have- that the ticket office is at street level where you would expect it to be. We know that isn’t actually what the sign is saying, but the test is ‘what the man on the Clapham Omnibus would think’, to paraphrase the late Lord Denning.

If you tried to actually read what I have written you would see I haven't defended Merseyrail at any point. What I have done is try to point out to the OP that their defence almost certainly isn't as clear cut as people like you are trying to make it out to be.

As for the sign by the stairs, I think you need to start catching different omnibuses. It shows a downward arrow for the exit and a straight on arrow for the ticket office. To almost everybody that would indicate they are not in the same direction.

 

[Haywain]

the two up arrows, suggesting ahead instructs the passenger to proceed ahead - which is into the steps.

In spite of the two arrows pointing downwards, indicating the stairs? They clearly don't mean the same things.