Fines for boarding a stationary train

[mangyiscute]

Continuing a discussion that was had in another thread but was off topic, I was surprised to find that you wouldn't be allowed to board a train at its origin station say 20 minutes before its going to leave and buy your ticket on a mobile app while the train sits in the station and you are on the train - under the rules (byelaw 18.1), you cannot board a train with intention to travel without a valid ticket, so this is why this isn't valid. (I personally think that if the train is sitting in a station this shouldn't be against the rules, but that's not the bit I'm worried about).

They said that the only reason they could think of to board a train without intention to travel would be to help other people out with luggage or something like that.

However, I then brought up that you could just say to any fare officer who came around that you wanted to see what the inside of the train looked like/try out the seats, and someone replied saying that this would not hold up in court as they would assume it's just an excuse that you are making. This got me worried though, as this is something that I will legitimately do from time to time - for example, after the avanti refurbishment, I saw one of them sitting in Birmingham so I went onboard to try both the standard and first class seats - I didn't have a valid ticket for the train but I had no intention to travel on that train. Now I'm worried that if I do something like that again I might be pulled up for fare evasion.

I know that this is a very unlikely thing to ever actually occur as I'm not sure I've heard of any fare checks whilst a train is stationary, but I wanted to hear people's thoughts on this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Officially you can't but I've done it several times. The only way it would be likely to be an actual issue, even if it is a technical breach of the law, would be if the transaction failed and you didn't get off before the doors closed.

 

[BJames]

I know that this is a very unlikely thing to ever actually occur as I'm not sure I've heard of any fare checks whilst a train is stationary, but I wanted to hear people's thoughts on this.

I have had the Train Manager check tickets before departure at Nottingham before (although it was only a couple of minutes before departure, but the doors were still open). The next time I travelled, Revenue Protection were on and they waited until just after the doors shut before doing their inspection.

 

[Gloster]

Although it is getting into semantics, would the train you have just got into in order to have a look at the interior be ‘a train’ within the meaning of the regulations if your entry into it takes place before the advertised departure time? By ‘departure time’ I mean the earliest time that the doors may be closed. If you are sufficiently in advance of the this departure time to complete your viewing and leave before the earliest moment at which the door closing procedure could start, would you have legally boarded a train?This might not apply if you boarded a train at a prolonged stop during its journeys. I bet lawyers could argue about this for hours.

 

[zwk500]

I think given the incredible unlikelihood of being stopped, I wouldn't worry. However hypothetically (and assuming I did have a valid ticket for travel from that station) I'd just pretend ignorance and say 'Oh is this not the 11.45 to Wolverhampton? Sorry, my mistake, thanks for that' and hop off.

 

[sheff1]

I have boarded a train other than the one I was aiming to travel on so that I could use the toilet.

I have also boarded a train to talk to a work colleague and then left before departure and gone home.

Posters on the other thread state categorically that this means I committed a criminal offence on both occasions.

Where in legislation is the offence is documented ?

 

[Watershed]

Continuing a discussion that was had in another thread but was off topic, I was surprised to find that you wouldn't be allowed to board a train at its origin station say 20 minutes before its going to leave and buy your ticket on a mobile app while the train sits in the station and you are on the train - under the rules (byelaw 18.1), you cannot board a train with intention to travel without a valid ticket, so this is why this isn't valid. (I personally think that if the train is sitting in a station this shouldn't be against the rules, but that's not the bit I'm worried about).

They said that the only reason they could think of to board a train without intention to travel would be to help other people out with luggage or something like that.

However, I then brought up that you could just say to any fare officer who came around that you wanted to see what the inside of the train looked like/try out the seats, and someone replied saying that this would not hold up in court as they would assume it's just an excuse that you are making. This got me worried though, as this is something that I will legitimately do from time to time - for example, after the avanti refurbishment, I saw one of them sitting in Birmingham so I went onboard to try both the standard and first class seats - I didn't have a valid ticket for the train but I had no intention to travel on that train. Now I'm worried that if I do something like that again I might be pulled up for fare evasion.

I know that this is a very unlikely thing to ever actually occur as I'm not sure I've heard of any fare checks whilst a train is stationary, but I wanted to hear people's thoughts on this.

If you had actually travelled, then I think it's unlikely your explanation would be accepted, though there could be circumstances where it would be. If the train hadn't yet moved and the doors were still unlocked when you were asked for your ticket, I think it is a perfectly viable defence.

At origin stations on longer distance services, it's common to hear an announcement along the lines of "this train is now ready to depart, please leave the train if you're not intending to travel with us". So clearly it's envisaged that you might be on the train for purposes other than travel, until it has left.

If you could show some non-travel purpose to having boarded the train - for example, you've just gone to the loo, or helped a passenger with their luggage, or taken some photos of the interior - this would add credibility to any such defence.

 

[MikeWh]

I would be surprised if there was actually a problem with buying a ticket on a stationary train before its scheduled departure.

The rules as written predate e-tickets, so they did not envisage the situation where it was possible to purchase a ticket after boarding a train. If the ticket is inspected after the train has departed, then it will pass the test of was this ticket purchased before departure.

It could be argued that when boarding the 1030 train at 1020, your intention was to be travelling after 1030. Prior to departure you had no intention to be travelling. By the time you did intend to be travelling you had a valid ticket.

Remember that this situation only arises at the origin station where access to the train is not prevented by barriers, and possibly at certain intermediate stations where a prolonged dwell time is scheduled. In the overwhelming majority of cases it would not be possible to complete purchase before departure.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Funnily enough, I recently got on a train at Reading which had a dwell time there of around 7 minutes. A couple of inspectors got on with me and started doing their thing straight away.

Bearing in mind that this appeared to be an old hand “puppy-walking” a spotty youth, I would imagine said old hand was trying to maximise the time available in order to compensate for the inexperience of the “puppy”.

(He was evidently nervous, but did OK from what I could see, and his “supervisor” let him get on with it while still being a reassuring, somewhat maternal presence.)

 

[purple-Azumas]

Funnily enough, I recently got on a train at Reading which had a dwell time there of around 7 minutes. A couple of inspectors got on with me and started doing their thing straight away.

Similar thing happened to me at St Albans Abbey the other day. Got on the train as soon as it pulled in, ready to reverse, and a LNR lady (not sure if she was a guard/RPI/somebody else) walked through the train a couple of minutes before it was due to leave.

She didn't explicitly ask for tickets but as I motioned to get mine ready to show her, she said not to worry and she came back to do a proper check later on.

Interesting to consider what she would have said if I had asked for a ticket after I'd boarded the train, though given there are almost certainly TVMs at every stop to Watford Jct. and yet at almost every stop someone buys a ticket on board from the guard, I doubt she'd have had too much of a problem with it.

Different lines/TOCs may well be different though.

 

[scrapy]

The railway bylaws state 'no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway, unless he has with him a valid ticket'.

Therefore (assuming the station is not a compulsory ticket area, you are not in 1st class, and you are not sitting in a seat reserved for another person) by boarding a train to have a look round but not travel you have not committed an offence.

However if you arrive early and intend to travel, you would be committing an offence boarding and then buying your ticket online before the departure time as you did not have a valid ticket when you entered the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Similar thing happened to me at St Albans Abbey the other day. Got on the train as soon as it pulled in, ready to reverse, and a LNR lady (not sure if she was a guard/RPI/somebody else) walked through the train a couple of minutes before it was due to leave.

She didn't explicitly ask for tickets but as I motioned to get mine ready to show her, she said not to worry and she came back to do a proper check later on.

Interesting to consider what she would have said if I had asked for a ticket after I'd boarded the train, though given there are almost certainly TVMs at every stop to Watford Jct. and yet at almost every stop someone buys a ticket on board from the guard, I doubt she'd have had too much of a problem with it.

Different lines/TOCs may well be different though.

There is, or at least was until the TVMs were installed because the 230s are so slow to work from anywhere bar the cab, a culture (on the LNR side, not Bedford gateline) that the Marston Vale and St Albans trains were "Paytrains" and that paying on board was accepted. I've even heard of people being let through the gateline without a ticket for this purpose if time was a bit tight, in one case with the member of staff (who was an RPI, not one of the security guards) actually using words like "Ah, that's OK, that one is a Paytrain". So this isn't massively surprising.

I was let through on the first (troubled) day of 230 operation too - I just honestly said "I want a ride on one of those, but given that we're not sure where it's going to get to can I pay on the train?" The guard actually let me off completely as we only got to Ridgmont and back*, as did the gateline staff when I got back (I offered to pay for what I'd actually done but they weren't bothered).

* Technically that would, if I had a ticket to Bedford, have counted as an "abandon and return to origin" refund, but the staff being reasonable saved me the faff of doing it.

 

[AlterEgo]

The railway bylaws state 'no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway, unless he has with him a valid ticket'.

Therefore (assuming the station is not a compulsory ticket area, you are not in 1st class, and you are not sitting in a seat reserved for another person) by boarding a train to have a look round but not travel you have not committed an offence.

The important thing is that intent is inferred from actions. People seem to think magistrates have psychic abilities.

"I actually didn't intend to travel" is not a sufficient defence.

I purchased a London to Milton Keynes ticket a couple of years back and accidentally got on a train which was first stop Wigan. I did not intend to go to Wigan! If I had sat and waited to be challenged, my lack of intent would have been much more difficult to prove. But if I go immediately to a member of staff and say I made a mistake, I need to go to MKC, what arrangements do I need to make to get there, etc - those actions mean it is unlikely someone could prove my intent to go to Wigan.

If you go onto a train, and you do not have a ticket, and sit down in first class and get caught, you will be in hot water.

 

[43066]

I know that this is a very unlikely thing to ever actually occur as I'm not sure I've heard of any fare checks whilst a train is stationary, but I wanted to hear people's thoughts on this.

There’s no problem at all with doing this in practice. Indeed I’ve done so myself when changing trains at Sevenoaks where a 700 often dwells on P4 and there is no heated shelter!

If anyone was to question me (which is vanishingly unlikely) I could point to my valid ticket covering travel through Sevenoaks, tell them which train I had arrived on, and which service I intended to depart on.

As others have said others might board for various reasons (help with luggage, use the loo etc.) with no intent to travel so the chances of any over zealous RPI trying to issue penalty fares before the a train has started moving is too small to worry about.

 

[Richardr]

There is, or at least was until the TVMs were installed because the 230s are so slow to work from anywhere bar the cab, a culture (on the LNR side, not Bedford gateline) that the Marston Vale and St Albans trains were "Paytrains" and that paying on board was accepted. I've even heard of people being let through the gateline without a ticket for this purpose if time was a bit tight, in one case with the member of staff (who was an RPI, not one of the security guards) actually using words like "Ah, that's OK, that one is a Paytrain". So this isn't massively surprising.

I was let through on the first (troubled) day of 230 operation too - I just honestly said "I want a ride on one of those, but given that we're not sure where it's going to get to can I pay on the train?" The guard actually let me off completely as we only got to Ridgmont and back*, as did the gateline staff when I got back (I offered to pay for what I'd actually done but they weren't bothered).

* Technically that would, if I had a ticket to Bedford, have counted as an "abandon and return to origin" refund, but the staff being reasonable saved me the faff of doing it.

On the St Albans to Watford line the only station that has a gateline, Watford Junction, has a window to the ticket office just before the gateline for the purchase of tickets. It hasn't been open the last few times I've travelled there, which is pretty infrequent, so it may always be shut these days of ticket machines at the other stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the St Albans to Watford line the only station that has a gateline, Watford Junction, has a window to the ticket office just before the gateline for the purchase of tickets. It hasn't been open the last few times I've travelled there, which is pretty infrequent, so it may always be shut these days of ticket machines at the other stations.

There's a TVM inside the gateline for St Albans passengers to get tickets if they haven't got them. I forget where it is but you do walk past it coming from St Albans.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Indeed. I will often board a train to shelter/keep warm/use the loo but for the purposes of pedantry, "I have no intention to travel" (on that particular train/service).

 

[mangyiscute]

If you go onto a train, and you do not have a ticket, and sit down in first class and get caught, you will be in hot water.

But then if I show them a ticket for a train leaving the station in like 20 minutes and tell them I just wanted to try the seats out, what are they going to say? I agree that if I'd say got all my stuff out of my bag they could assume you're travelling, but I'm just sat in the seat for about 20 seconds and then get off

 

[island]

In the vast majority of cases I would expect common-sense to be applied and it would be rare that a passenger who does not hold a ticket at the point of stepping onto the train but has successfully acquired one before the train departs will suffer any detriment, despite that they have technically committed an offence in doing so.

Although it is getting into semantics, would the train you have just got into in order to have a look at the interior be ‘a train’ within the meaning of the regulations if your entry into it takes place before the advertised departure time?

Yes. A train does not start and stop being a train at random points during the day. I beg to suggest that a court would spend very little time dismissing as ludicrous any argument to the contrary.

By ‘departure time’ I mean the earliest time that the doors may be closed. If you are sufficiently in advance of the this departure time to complete your viewing and leave before the earliest moment at which the door closing procedure could start, would you have legally boarded a train?

Well, you would have boarded a train; whether you would have done so legally or not is another matter.

This might not apply if you boarded a train at a prolonged stop during its journeys.

The question is not how long the stop is, but whether your purpose of boarding the train was to travel on it. The presumption will be that it was. If you are helping an identified, ticket-holding passenger with luggage or other personal needs, it will be clear. If you are using the toilet or hanging out in the train because of the lack of a heated shelter, this will also be quite clear. Normal people do not go around stations randomly getting on and off trains just for fun.

Where in legislation is the offence is documented ?

Section 18 of the Railway Byelaws.

 

[mangyiscute]

Normal people do not go around stations randomly getting on and off trains just for fun.

But just because normal people don't do it doesn't mean it should be an offence or whatever you are suggesting

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Normal people do not go around stations randomly getting on and off trains just for fun.

But just because normal people don't do it doesn't mean it should be an offence or whatever you are suggesting

Which is why discretion will be used not to prosecute those who are doing it but not in any shape or form causing any harm or irritation to anyone (n.b. no doubt in the subjective opinion of the railway staff rather than the subjective opinion of whoever is hopping on and off the stationary train).

I think in general we need to remember that the law is not a seamless item that will cover every possibility, however unlikely or difficult to imagine it might be. Rather, it's something that has been cobbled together by fallible humans, partly to deal with things that might happen and partly to slam the stable door after things have already happened. This is one reason why if something gets as far as court, it will be heard by a real live bench of magistrates* who as @island said upthread (or maybe elsewhere) weren't born yesterday and will be able to treat anything that falls into the holes in the law appropriately.

*With the time and cost saving exception of the SJP where there's no disagreement over facts or guilt.

(Edited to correct a typo)

 

[zwk500]

But just because normal people don't do it doesn't mean it should be an offence or whatever you are suggesting

One (quite good) reason why it should be an offence is that people do board trains with the intention of stealing luggage and not travelling.

 

[sheff1]

Section 18 of the Railway Byelaws.

I see nothing there which relates to entering a train for the purposes I descibed i.e. (i) to use the toilet or (ii) speak to someone onboard and then, in both cases, leave the train before departure nor to someone entering just to have a look around as other posters have said they did.

 

[py_megapixel]

Boarding a train you don't wish to travel on is not something to be encouraged anyway, lest it departs before you get off!

Wasn't there an advertising campaign to this effect at some point? (I think pre-privatisation)

 

[AlterEgo]

I see nothing there which relates to entering a train for the purposes I descibed i.e. (i) to use the toilet or (ii) speak to someone onboard and then, in both cases, leave the train before departure nor to someone entering just to have a look around as other posters have said they did.

You're right in that those aren't specifically illegal. "...for the purpose of travelling on the Railway" is the important part.

Again, intent will be inferred from one's actions. Sitting down, ticketless, in first class, and being challenged by a member of staff and you proffering the explanation "I was only trying the seats!" is not very likely to impress a court. Being on a train and talking to a friend and then claiming not to want to travel - maybe a higher chance of convincing an understanding magistrate. The context is highly relevant.

Nobody is going to tell you sticking a whole chicken inside your jacket in the supermarket is forbidden in law, but try getting out of an attempted theft charge by using those actions to show your intent.

 

[hexagon789]

Surely under the one of the ROR Acts one is technically committing trespass (asides from the usual trespass to private property, which may also be applicable) - 'anyone who enters upon the railway for a purpose other than the use of the railway' is commiting a trespass:

For example - S. 16 of the 1840 Act states - 'the railway may exclude anyone who is not there for the purpose of using the railway'

 

[tspaul26]

Surely under the one of the ROR Acts one is technically committing trespass (asides from the usual trespass to private property, which may also be applicable) - 'anyone who enters upon the railway for a purpose other than the use of the railway' is commiting a trespass:

For example - S. 16 of the 1840 Act states - 'the railway may exclude anyone who is not there for the purpose of using the railway'

This is complete nonsense.

There is a general implied licence to enter the railway, including for purposes other than travelling by train, and section 16 says no such thing.

 

[hexagon789]

This is complete nonsense.

There is a general implied licence to enter the railway, including for purposes other than travelling by train, and section 16 says no such thing.

It literally does say exactly what I quoted

 

[tspaul26]

It literally does say exactly what I quoted

No, it doesn’t.

If you are right then prove your assertion by showing me the exact wording of the legislation.

 

[some bloke]

Section 16 of the 1840 Act needs refusal to quit, not just (wilful) trespass.

Railway Regulation Act 1840 said:

"if any Person shall wilfully trespass upon any Railway, or any of the Stations or other Works or Premises connected therewith, and shall refuse to quit the same upon Request to him made by any Officer or Agent of the said Company"

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/3-4/97/section/XVI/enacted

Transport Offences | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk