First Aberdeen

[Jordan Adam]

A few of them are back with Wrightbus, maybe 4 certainly 39702/4.

Thanks, i wasn't too certain as while it had been reported that all of them were going back to Wrightbus for work only 39702 has been sighted away from Aberdeen to my knowledge.

These look good. Had thought the new Streetdecks were for the 3. Interesting also that they have green hand rails and not the standard pink?

They were originally going to be for the 3 but the plan changed over the last summer, likely in part to do with the capacity issues the 17/18 have been experiencing. Of course this is still subject to change in the future but the plan at the moment is for the 10 new Streetdecks plus the existing unbranded examples (39701-3/10/11) to move on to the 17/18 displacing the E300s which will move on to the 3 and 12 primarily. It is expected that 69290/294/351-357 & 67804 will be leaving Aberdeen as these are the only buses in the fleet not signed off for Euro 6 conversions, despite the fact 69356/57 were repainted 4 months ago!

There are also plans for another order of 15 buses for this time next year.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Thanks, i wasn't too certain as while it had been reported that all of them were going back to Wrightbus for work only 39702 has been sighted away from Aberdeen to my knowledge.

They were originally going to be for the 3 but the plan changed over the last summer, likely in part to do with the capacity issues the 17/18 have been experiencing. Of course this is still subject to change in the future but the plan at the moment is for the 10 new Streetdecks plus the existing unbranded examples (39701-3/10/11) to move on to the 17/18 displacing the E300s which will move on to the 3 and 12 primarily. It is expected that 69290/294/351-357 & 67804 will be leaving Aberdeen as these are the only buses in the fleet not signed off for Euro 6 conversions, despite the fact 69356/57 were repainted 4 months ago!

There are also plans for another order of 15 buses for this time next year.

Thanks for the info!

I wonder if the B7RLEs will be returned by to FSE where they came from or if they will head to the scrapyard. It seems rather odd that one E300 which is fairly modern bus will be leaving the fleet?

I wonder if it’ll be electric singles or more hydrogen deckers. Either way nice to see some investment for Aberdeen!

 

[stevenedin]

They may go down south or back to Scotland East or Glasgow to replace older buses.

 

[Volvodart]

FSE was mentioned before when it was to be all the 08 plates that were said to be transferring, probably replacing more of the Scanias.

There are also plans for another order of 15 buses for this time next year.

This depends on funding being available for them. They will be considerably more expensive to First than the existing 25 hydrogen buses were with the funding rate available for them, assuming that they are hydrogen rather than electric (which would be more affordable).

 

[Jordan Adam]

Thanks for the info!

I wonder if the B7RLEs will be returned by to FSE where they came from or if they will head to the scrapyard. It seems rather odd that one E300 which is fairly modern bus will be leaving the fleet?

I wonder if it’ll be electric singles or more hydrogen deckers. Either way nice to see some investment for Aberdeen!

As Volvodart notes FSE has been mentioned in the past. The E300 is likely just to help decrease the fleet age at wherever it goes, similar to how Aberdeen lost 67805 in 2018.

If i'm honest i'm surprised First have never swapped the Enviro300s in Aberdeen for the 63xxx Streetlites in Glasgow since the latter are an uncommon type in Glasgow and it would help standardise the fleets. There had been talk of the Enviro200MMCs leaving around a year ago due to reliability issues caused by them sustaining damage on certain routes in Aberdeen but this has never amounted to anything, instead they've just banned them from the 13 (the route they're branded for...) and they just use them on other services where they seem to do better.

This depends on funding being available for them. They will be considerably more expensive to First than the existing 25 hydrogen buses were with the funding rate available for them, assuming that they are hydrogen rather than electric (which would be more affordable).

That's true, until the order is actually placed we likely won't know. There has been talk of them potentially being Streetdeck-BEV Electroliners hence why i didn't mention Hydrogen in my last post.

 

[Deltic1961]

Why do First Aberdeen not consider using Beaver buses these days? I noticed Stagecoach still run them.

For example yesterday I saw a E500 running empty on the 9U. Surely that's a complete waste of fuel considering literally nobody uses the service. Same applies to the X27 as I've never ever seen more than 2 people on one.

 

[Volvodart]

The 9U is a contracted service and the contract is for a double decker, as capacity runs used to be frequent at some times during the year.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Why do First Aberdeen not consider using Beaver buses these days? I noticed Stagecoach still run them.

For example yesterday I saw a E500 running empty on the 9U. Surely that's a complete waste of fuel considering literally nobody uses the service. Same applies to the X27 as I've never ever seen more than 2 people on one.

It wouldn't really make sense from an operational perspective, especially since the X27 interworks with other services and those minibuses would be limited to where they can operate. I wouldn't imagine the running cost of an Optare Solo would be much less than a Streetlite or E200MMC anyway.

 

[PG]

The 9U is a contracted service and the contract is for a double decker, as capacity runs used to be frequent at some times during the year.

If anything you'd have thought that the contractee in this particular case would have the ability to work out which ones were 'fresh air' runs and save themselves a bit of cash by not specifying a decker on those runs.
Alternatively just ask any of the drivers as I'm sure they'll know

 

[Jordan Adam]

If anything you'd have thought that the contractee in this particular case would have the ability to work out which ones were 'fresh air' runs and save themselves a bit of cash by not specifying a decker on those runs.
Alternatively just ask any of the drivers as I'm sure they'll know

That wouldn't work around driver duties. The duties on the 9U are done in a way so that they use the least amount of resources as possible. Having the decker come off earlier and go back on later would probably require an extra bus and an extra driver.

The first of these duties is usually allocated an E500 while the second is typically (but not always) a single decker.

The two duties that work on to the 9U are as follows:

20 | 6:59 Hillhead - Balnagask 7:35
20 | 7:45 Balnagask - Hillhead 8:18
9U | 8:30 Hillhead - ARI - Hillhead 9:10
9U | 9:25 Hillhead - ARI - SDR 9:55
9U | 10:05 SDR - ARI - SDR 10:25
9U | 10:35 SDR - ARI - SDR 10:55
9U | 11:05 SDR - ARI - SDR 11:25
9U | 11:35 SDR - ARI - SDR 11:55
11:55 - 14:05: Bus returns to depot from to allow driver break/change over
9U | 14:05 SDR - ARI - SDR 14:25
9U | 14:35 SDR - ARI - SDR 14:55
9U | 15:05 SDR - ARI - SDR 15:25
9U | 15:35 SDR - ARI - SDR 15:55
9U | 16:05 SDR - ARI - Hillhead 16:35
9U | 16:45 Hillhead - ARI - Hillhead 17:25
9U | 17:35 Hillhead - ARI - Hillhead 18:15

20 | 6:59 Adelphi - Balnagask 7:13
20 | 7:15 Balnagask - Hillhead 7:48
9U | 7:50 Hillhead - ARI - Hillhead 8:40
9U | 8:35 Hillhead - ARI 8:55
Bus returns to depot for a few hours
9U | 12:05 SDR - ARI - SDR 12:25
9U | 12:35 SDR - ARI - SDR 12:55
9U | 13:05 SDR - ARI - SDR 13:25
9U | 13:35 SDR - ARI - SDR 13:55
3 | 14:20 Mastrick - Cove 15:12
3 | 15:22 Cove - Mastrick 16:24
3A 16:30 Mastrick - Cove 17:24
3A | 17:33 Cove - Mastrick 18:33

*SDR = Sir Duncan Rice Library

 

[PG]

That wouldn't work around driver duties. The duties on the 9U are done in a way so that they use the least amount of resources as possible.

Thanks, however one resource not mentioned is fuel and I'm certain an E500 uses quite a bit!

 

[Deltic1961]

Thanks, however one resource not mentioned is fuel and I'm certain an E500 uses quite a bit!

That was the point of my original question a few posts up. Although the unit has "Enviro" in the name it's anything but ......

 

[Volvodart]

The University is paying for the costs of an Enviro 500, so I do not see what the problem is. The contract would need to be renegotiated for a single decker to be used for the daytime working.

 

[lachlan]

When I was in first year I had complaints from my medic flatmates that they couldn't board the 9U because non-medical students were using it to get to the libary. I've only used it once myself to give blood at ARI and there was only a couple other passengers, IIRC this was during exam season and midday. So I imagine the usage varies significantly throughout the day and just because there was an empty bus at one point doesn't mean the service isn't well used.

On an unrelated note, when were the last night buses withdrawn? I want to improve the Transport in Aberdeen Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Aberdeen) but can't find a source on the withdrawal of the last night services. Were there any stories in the press at the time?

 

[Deltic1961]

They were pulled the first weekend of lockdown in March 2020.

First effectively killed them many months before by restricting the services for example last bus to Dyce at 01:20. Makes me so angry because I used to use them all the time. They just made it so difficult for people to use the service and Covid was a convenient excuse to get rid of it forever. It's £20 in a taxi now.

On a side note I notice the Night Bus signs still light up on the Union Street bus stops and I've seen a few posts on Facebook from people who have stood waiting not realising there isn't a service any more.

 

[Jordan Adam]

When I was in first year I had complaints from my medic flatmates that they couldn't board the 9U because non-medical students were using it to get to the libary. I've only used it once myself to give blood at ARI and there was only a couple other passengers, IIRC this was during exam season and midday. So I imagine the usage varies significantly throughout the day and just because there was an empty bus at one point doesn't mean the service isn't well used.

Only students or staff with university passes are meant to be able to use the service but i'd imagine many drivers don't bother to check. The service being closed to public has been both a good and bad thing. Good because it means it has the capacity to cope with loads at peak times but bad because the off-peak runs which were once generally well used are now dead.

When the 9U originally launched in the 2012/13 academic year it operated from Guild Street to ARI via King Street, Seaton and Hillhead Of Seaton. It operated half hourly Monday to Saturday daytime with some early evening buses, the University funded the Hillhead - ARI section while the Hillhead - City Centre section was operated commercially by Stagecoach in direct competition with First's 1/2, 13 and 20. They originally used single deck MAN ALX300s on the service but replaced them with Volvo Olympians within the first week due to severe capacity issues on peak runs. It wasn't uncommon for the 8:15 from Hillhead to ARI to depart Hillhead with a fully seated load having already picked up a handful of people in Seaton, as there was usually well over 20 people that got on at the first stop on St Machar Drive (Dunbar Street) it would always be at full capacity from there and would then have to leave other passengers waiting at the bus stops behind. Likewise the 14:36, 15:06 & 15:36 runs from ARI would pretty much always have standees too. In contrast off-peak buses would at best have about 10 passengers. While on the city centre leg i never saw more than 5 passengers, the use of Olympians pretty much killed off all the OAP trade in Seaton while Stagecoach drivers were notoriously bad for driving past stops on Union Street if another bus was already there. In September 2013 Stagecoach axed the commercial portion of the service while the university funded section became a "closed door" contract which is pretty much how it has remained since, First took over operation of the service in January 2020.

Ideally the current service should be operated as an extension of the 13, much like how it was from 2008 to 2011 under the Service 14. However the university seem against the ideal of opening it up to the public despite there been much demand and need for it and First are highly unlikely to go ahead with service changes that increase the PVR.

They were pulled the first weekend of lockdown in March 2020.

First effectively killed them many months before by restricting the services for example last bus to Dyce at 01:20. Makes me so angry because I used to use them all the time. They just made it so difficult for people to use the service and Covid was a convenient excuse to get rid of it forever. It's £20 in a taxi now.

On a side note I notice the Night Bus signs still light up on the Union Street bus stops and I've seen a few posts on Facebook from people who have stood waiting not realising there isn't a service ay more.

It is a shame, the Dyce and Danestone services in particular would usually take in £200+ per run a decade ago. The oil downturn impacted them quite badly and in September 2016 First revised the network reducing frequencies on the N1, N17 & N19 to hourly but using the buses saved to extend the N20 to Garthdee and launching the N5 (Balnagask - Northfield) and N18 (Tillydrone, Danestone & Dyce).

I'd like to think the Night Buses will come back but it seems unlikely in the short term.

 

[lachlan]

Only students or staff with university passes are meant to be able to use the service but i'd imagine many drivers don't bother to check. The service being closed to public has been both a good and bad thing. Good because it means it has the capacity to cope with loads at peak times but bad because the off-peak runs which were once generally well used are now dead.

When the 9U originally launched in the 2012/13 academic year it operated from Guild Street to ARI via King Street, Seaton and Hillhead Of Seaton. It operated half hourly Monday to Saturday daytime with some early evening buses, the University funded the Hillhead - ARI section while the Hillhead - City Centre section was operated commercially by Stagecoach in direct competition with First's 1/2, 13 and 20. They originally used single deck MAN ALX300s on the service but replaced them with Volvo Olympians within the first week due to severe capacity issues on peak runs. It wasn't uncommon for the 8:15 from Hillhead to ARI to depart Hillhead with a fully seated load having already picked up a handful of people in Seaton, as there was usually well over 20 people that got on at the first stop on St Machar Drive (Dunbar Street) it would always be at full capacity from there and would then have to leave other passengers waiting at the bus stops behind. Likewise the 14:36, 15:06 & 15:36 runs from ARI would pretty much always have standees too. In contrast off-peak buses would at best have about 10 passengers. While on the city centre leg i never saw more than 5 passengers, the use of Olympians pretty much killed off all the OAP trade in Seaton while Stagecoach drivers were notoriously bad for driving past stops on Union Street if another bus was already there. In September 2013 Stagecoach axed the commercial portion of the service while the university funded section became a "closed door" contract which is pretty much how it has remained since, First took over operation of the service in January 2020.

Ideally the current service should be operated as an extension of the 13, much like how it was from 2008 to 2011 under the Service 14. However the university seem against the ideal of opening it up to the public despite there been much demand and need for it and First are highly unlikely to go ahead with service changes that increase the PVR.

It is a shame, the Dyce and Danestone services in particular would usually take in £200+ per run a decade ago. The oil downturn impacted them quite badly and in September 2016 First revised the network reducing frequencies on the N1, N17 & N19 to hourly but using the buses saved to extend the N20 to Garthdee and launching the N5 (Balnagask - Northfield) and N18 (Tillydrone, Danestone & Dyce).

I'd like to think the Night Buses will come back but it seems unlikely in the short term.

Thank you for the insight, very interesting. I can't see the 9U being opened up to the general public while coronavirus is still a big thing, the uni are quite overcautious and probably would see students mixing with the general public as a risk of infection.

 

[Volvodart]

It looks like First Aberdeen are getting their first electric buses, although the exact number is unknown as it is combined with First Glasgow:-

https://www.transport.gov.scot/public-transport/buses/scottish-zero-emission-bus-challenge-fund/

First Aberdeen Ltd & First Glasgow No1 Ltd

£18,599,858

74

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It looks like First Aberdeen are getting their first electric buses, although the exact number is unknown as it is combined with First Glasgow:-

https://www.transport.gov.scot/public-transport/buses/scottish-zero-emission-bus-challenge-fund/

Further up this thread, @Jordan Adam suggests 15 vehicles are due

 

[cnjb8]

Scotstoun depot to receive the new electric buses which will be single deckers

74 ScotZEB battery-electrics for First Bus all to be single-deck - routeone

All 74 battery-electric buses for First Bus Scotland that will be part-funded by the ScotZEB challenge fund will be single-deck models.

www.route-one.net

74 ScotZEB battery-electrics for First Bus all to be single-deck​

By
routeone Team
-
February 28, 2022
https://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=https://www.route-one.net/decarbonisation/74-scotzeb-battery-electrics-for-first-bus-all-to-be-single-deck/
https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=74+ScotZEB+battery-electrics+for+First+Bus+all+to+be+single-deck&url=https://www.route-one.net/decarbonisation/74-scotzeb-battery-electrics-for-first-bus-all-to-be-single-deck/&via=@routeoneteam

https://www.linkedin.com/shareArtic...electrics+for+First+Bus+all+to+be+single-deck

First Bus Scotland has moved quickly to confirm that all 74 of the battery-electric buses that will be part-funded by the first round of the Scottish Zero Emission Bus (ScotZEB) challenge fund are to be single-deck models. The manufacturer has not been confirmed but they will all be in service by spring 2024.
50 of them will go to First Glasgow’s Scotstoun depot and 24 will join the First Aberdeen fleet. The former will take the number of battery-electric buses in operation by the group in Glasgow to 200, while those for Aberdeen will grow to 30% the percentage of its fleet that is zero-emission, the group says.
£18.6m has been secured by First Bus for its Scottish business from the first round of ScotZEB. To that it will add £16.4m for a total investment of £35m.
The 50 battery-electric buses for Scotstoun will complement current work at Caledonia depot in Glasgow that upon completion will see 150 buses there that use the same propulsion technology. When all 200 are delivered across Caledonia and Scotstoun, 40% of the buses operating from the two depots will be zero-emission.
Significant money will be invested in infrastructure at Aberdeen and Scotstoun as part of the ScotZEB work to future-proof both depots, the group adds. In Aberdeen, the battery-electric buses will run alongside Wrightbus StreetDeck Hydroliner hydrogen fuel cell-electric double-deckers.
Says First Bus Scotland Managing Director Duncan Cameron: “We are delighted to have been awarded this funding, and we are proud to be continuing our journey towards achieving a 100% zero-emission fleet by 2035.
“Scotstoun will become the second of our depots in Glasgow to start its journey, while Aberdeen will further enhance its growing number of zero-emission buses. Both depots will be future-proofed for further investment in zero-emission vehicles as a result of the infrastructure work undertaken.”
The first round of ScotZEB will see over £62m go towards the delivery of 276 battery-electric buses across Scotland. A second round of ScotZEB is expected to open in April.

This post from the Glasgow thread says Aberdeen are getting 24.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Presumably half of them will be for the 23, it would at least explain why no Streetlites had gained new route branding despite it being in the finalisation stages a few months back.

 

[Nev85]

Spotted a 19 liveried unit on a low-loader heading south this afternoon, didn't manage to catch the fleet number but presumably heading to Wrightbus?

 

[Volvodart]

Probably 39705.

 

[83G/84D]

Union Street, Aberdeen to re-open to some vehicles:-

Buses and taxis to return to Aberdeen's Union Street



Plans for the pedestrianisation of part of Aberdeen's Union Street have been hit after the readmission of buses and taxis was backed by councillors.



The Labour and Conservative-led administration has wanted a section of the city's main street to remain permanently closed to vehicles as part of a major redevelopment.

However, a motion to get public transport back between Market Street and Guild Street was backed on Monday.

This could take at least three months.

The issue has been controversial in recent months.



In November, the city growth and resources committee backed the £150m city centre masterplan.

The casting vote came from convener Ryan Houghton, who refused a request for the proposals to be considered by full council.

The result saw independent councillor Marie Boulton step down from her long-serving role leading the city masterplan.

She had called for Union Street to be reopened to buses during a consultation period. Her view was not seconded, and she later said she felt her position was no longer tenable.



Opposition members on the council expressed anger that the decision did not go the full council, claiming the plans were too important.

Then in January, an attempt to return buses failed.

Although it was supported by 24 members with 21 against, it required two-thirds - 30 out of 45 - to succeed.

However on Monday, SNP councillor Alex McLellan's motion to get public transport back onto the section of the route between Market Street and Guild Street was backed.

'Clear vision'​

Ms Boulton said Union Street was an important destination area for people to be able to move around in.

"We don't have the parallel streets like lots of different places have around the UK.

"I think it's important to create these pedestrian areas (in nearby streets), but to make sure people can get there is imperative."

Conservative group leader Mr Houghton said: "There was a clear vision for taking the city forward and that's unfortunately not going to happen, there's been a vote for the reintroduction of buses.

"We heard from officers that's going to take at least 12 weeks because we've got demolition work at the new market and construction work at Union Terrace Gardens.

"So I think the better course of action would have been to allow all the work, and detailed business cases and plans to come to us in June, and then the new council could have had all the evidence before them and made a decision."

Duncan Cameron, managing director of First Bus Scotland, said: "We welcome the decision from Aberdeen City Council to allow buses back on to Union Street and the benefits it will bring to our customers.

"This will help us speed up services for customers as well as providing easier access to Union Street for those living and working throughout the city."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60569407

 

[PG]

Union Street, Aberdeen to re-open to some vehicles:-

However, a motion to get public transport back between Market Street and Guild Street was backed on Monday.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60569407

I'm assuming they meant to write Bridge Street.

Anyway great to hear that common sense has (finally) prevailed.

 

[lachlan]

I still think the diversion could have worked if the council added more bus stops to Guild Street and allowed every bus to call there, creating an easy interchange between bus and rail. The current system is ridiculous, only a month or so ago was a proper bus stop with a timetable installed on Market Street and there is no realtime information. Bus journeys take longer and the potential extra connectivity has been ignored (except the 20, which is actually shorter now but again no longer calls at Guild Street which is annoying).

Now if buses are definitely returning to Union Street (I'm glad cars are still banned, this will give the bus an advantage over the car), I think the interchange from the station to Union Street needs to be improved as currently walking up Market Street or climbing up the steps leaves a lot to be desired. I can't remember the exact plans but maybe with the redevelopment of the Market a new route where BHS was could be created? Crucially it would need to be open 24 hours.

 

[Deltic1961]

I personally feel that banning cars has killed the City Centre. King Street, West North Street, Holburn Street all dead now. They have closed off a main arterial route and it is a nightmare getting around the back streets now. Schoolhill / Upperkirkgate still closed using Spaces for People as an excuse. Add to that the estimated £2.5m raised by the bus gate camera. Should Councils have the power to stop people driving where they want then raise money from it?

Businesses will now desert Aberdeen City and move elsewhere so people can get to them easier and be able to park.

I know this is a public transport centric forum, but 80% of households in Aberdeen own a car and pay the relevant taxes, but Scottish Government and ACC are hell bent on getting people to stop using them. The LEZ coming in soon will just make matters worse. Who in their right mind would walk from Bridge of Don or Dyce to the City? ACC seem to think people will which shows how deluded they really are.

I also feel First buses are too expensive and far too slow. Dyce to Aberdeen at 15 to 20 mph with multiple timing stops is mind numbing, and we have already stopped going in to the city. My wife had someone come out to her business in Dyce last week, and the woman couldn't believe how long the bus took for the journey. From what I see the majority of bus users are getting subsidized travel and that's why they use the buses. The rest of us will continue to use our cars and just avoid Aberdeen.

 

[lachlan]

I personally feel that banning cars has killed the City Centre. King Street, West North Street, Holburn Street all dead now. They have closed off a main arterial route and it is a nightmare getting around the back streets now. Schoolhill / Upperkirkgate still closed using Spaces for People as an excuse. Add to that the estimated £2.5m raised by the bus gate camera. Should Councils have the power to stop people driving where they want then raise money from it?

Businesses will now desert Aberdeen City and move elsewhere so people can get to them easier and be able to park.

I know this is a public transport centric forum, but 80% of households in Aberdeen own a car and pay the relevant taxes, but Scottish Government and ACC are hell bent on getting people to stop using them. The LEZ coming in soon will just make matters worse. Who in their right mind would walk from Bridge of Don or Dyce to the City? ACC seem to think people will which shows how deluded they really are.

I also feel First buses are too expensive and far too slow. Dyce to Aberdeen at 15 to 20 mph with multiple timing stops is mind numbing, and we have already stopped going in to the city. My wife had someone come out to her business in Dyce last week, and the woman couldn't believe how long the bus took for the journey. From what I see the majority of bus users are getting subsidized travel and that's why they use the buses. The rest of us will continue to use our cars and just avoid Aberdeen.

If we want the bus network to grow and frequencies to increase (service frequencies were far greater in the past, IIRC some tram routes ran every four minutes!!) then we need to encourage people to use it.

Yes absolutely the council should earn money from these cameras which could be used to subsidise the bus network.

Nobody in there right mind would walk those journeys which is why we have the bus network.

Agreed that buses are too slow though again the way to resolve that is to make driving harder and more costly while making buses cheaper, encouraging people to use public transport.

 

[Deltic1961]

Do people want the bus network to grow though (well except for First, ACC and people with free bus passes?)

As stated previously 80% of households in Aberdeen own a car through choice, pay tax to drive it, pay tax to fuel it, pay tax for a permit to sit it outside their house .... why should people be forced out of the cars they rightfully own.

I don't know a single person who regularly uses the bus.

As for the cameras it's basically entrapment. Close a main route (which sat-nav still directs people down), put up inadequate signage then rake in millions. It's just so wrong on every level.

I completely disagree with forcing people not to use something they own and have paid for. I believe Scottish Greens want to ban private car ownership in Scotland. We'll see .......

 

[GusB]

This is a thread to discuss First Aberdeen, not a platform for disgruntled motorists! By all means discuss the general traffic situation in Aberdeen, but take it to the Other Transport section. Thanks