First Class Off Peak Return - Kidsgrove to Arbroath

[paddy1]

I would appreciate if someone would offer some perspective regarding difficulties searching trains times and validities via various websites for a Kidsgrove to Arbroath first class off peak return.

BRfares. Com shows a fare of £216.50 (via Crewe) inclusive of 34% railcard discount. The National Rail website also shows this £216.50 fare when you initially start the search, but only for the outbound sector. When you then go to select the return train times, it defaults to two anytime first class singles at a much higher fare of 2 x £170.60 (£340.20) and no option to select a first class off peak return. I’m certain that the older version of the National Rail website did give this option, even where it wasn’t the cheapest. It also defaults to two first class anytime singles required on certain services when returning via Glasgow, even though this does not involve travel on LNER trains.

The only restrictions I can see for this ticket is condition 2V Cross Country - outward and return journeys not permitted before 0930 Monday to Friday. The dates of travel outward will be 20th February and return 25th February, all after 0930, although the actual dates are irrelevant as I want the flexibility regarding timings, dates, routes etc that that an off peak return offers. The fare is set by Avanti West Coast routed via Crewe and the main sector from Crewe to Edinburgh will involve travel with them and onward with LNER between Edinburgh and Abroath, and I should be able to do so with this ticket. I don’t want advance tickets or to travel with TPE.

I am aware of single leg pricing on fares set by LNER, but this does not (or should not?) apply for this particular journey as it falls outside of the ‘fares simplification’ trial. Effectively, it forces (dupes) people into purchasing two higher priced Anytime singles where an off peak return should suffice. I get this same result of defaulting to two anytime singles when I check Avanti, LNER, Train Line and other websites. The LNWR website, although initially also directing you towards two anytime singles, also offers the option of purchasing an off peak return for this trip, whereas the others don’t appear to.

(I get similar results when I check fares to Abroath from Crewe/Warrington/Wigan/Preston etc - i.e no cheaper first class off peak return offered (even though they exist), only either two anytime first singles or an anytime and advance single combination)

The other issue is that if you were gullible enough to select to purchase the two anytime singles at the same time, you would be effectively restricting yourself to make the return trip on or within two days of the date on the ticket, whereas the much cheaper off peak ticket gives you the full flexibility to travel and break the journey on any date within one month of the outward trip, and at a much lower price.

Intriguingly, when I check fares for this same trip based on standard off peak returns for £118.90, it does shows it as being valid outward and return on the same off peak services that it showed first class off peak returns not to be valid on, whether travelling via Glasgow or Edinburgh.

I have checked the TVM at Kidsgrove Station and have confirmed that this £216.50 first class off peak return is available for purchase there, which is how I will be buying the ticket, but I just want to make doubly sure beforehand that I will have no issues in using this ticket onboard LNER in first class.

Might these discrepancies be explained by an undetected ‘glitch’ or ‘error’ on the fares system? Am I missing out something when conducting these fares searches? Or am I being overly cynical in thinking LNER have deliberately configured the system beyond their supposed remit so as to dupe the unwary into buying higher priced anytime first class singles when they don’t need to ? I can’t find anything on the LNER website to indicate that first class off peak return fares are NOT valid on their services when travelling within the 2V fare off peak restriction times, or why they shouldn’t be.

I have emailed separately LNER about this and await a reply with interest, hoping to have something in writing to produce if challenged and to have corrected. To me, this is wrong and needs to be highlighted and addressed.


Thanking you in anticipation of your input.

 

[alistairlees]

I would appreciate if someone would offer some perspective regarding difficulties searching trains times and validities via various websites for a Kidsgrove to Arbroath first class off peak return.

BRfares. Com shows a fare of £216.50 (via Crewe) inclusive of 34% railcard discount. The National Rail website also shows this £216.50 fare when you initially start the search, but only for the outbound sector. When you then go to select the return train times, it defaults to two anytime first class singles at a much higher fare of 2 x £170.60 (£340.20) and no option to select a first class off peak return. I’m certain that the older version of the National Rail website did give this option, even where it wasn’t the cheapest. It also defaults to two first class anytime singles required on certain services when returning via Glasgow, even though this does not involve travel on LNER trains.

The only restrictions I can see for this ticket is condition 2V Cross Country - outward and return journeys not permitted before 0930 Monday to Friday. The dates of travel outward will be 20th February and return 25th February, all after 0930, although the actual dates are irrelevant as I want the flexibility regarding timings, dates, routes etc that that an off peak return offers. The fare is set by Avanti West Coast routed via Crewe and the main sector from Crewe to Edinburgh will involve travel with them and onward with LNER between Edinburgh and Abroath, and I should be able to do so with this ticket. I don’t want advance tickets or to travel with TPE.

I am aware of single leg pricing on fares set by LNER, but this does not (or should not?) apply for this particular journey as it falls outside of the ‘fares simplification’ trial. Effectively, it forces (dupes) people into purchasing two higher priced Anytime singles where an off peak return should suffice. I get this same result of defaulting to two anytime singles when I check Avanti, LNER, Train Line and other websites. The LNWR website, although initially also directing you towards two anytime singles, also offers the option of purchasing an off peak return for this trip, whereas the others don’t appear to.

(I get similar results when I check fares to Abroath from Crewe/Warrington/Wigan/Preston etc - i.e no cheaper first class off peak return offered (even though they exist), only either two anytime first singles or an anytime and advance single combination)

The other issue is that if you were gullible enough to select to purchase the two anytime singles at the same time, you would be effectively restricting yourself to make the return trip on or within two days of the date on the ticket, whereas the much cheaper off peak ticket gives you the full flexibility to travel and break the journey on any date within one month of the outward trip, and at a much lower price.

Intriguingly, when I check fares for this same trip based on standard off peak returns for £118.90, it does shows it as being valid outward and return on the same off peak services that it showed first class off peak returns not to be valid on, whether travelling via Glasgow or Edinburgh.

I have checked the TVM at Kidsgrove Station and have confirmed that this £216.50 first class off peak return is available for purchase there, which is how I will be buying the ticket, but I just want to make doubly sure beforehand that I will have no issues in using this ticket onboard LNER in first class.

Might these discrepancies be explained by an undetected ‘glitch’ or ‘error’ on the fares system? Am I missing out something when conducting these fares searches? Or am I being overly cynical in thinking LNER have deliberately configured the system beyond their supposed remit so as to dupe the unwary into buying higher priced anytime first class singles when they don’t need to ? I can’t find anything on the LNER website to indicate that first class off peak return fares are NOT valid on their services when travelling within the 2V fare off peak restriction times, or why they shouldn’t be.

I have emailed separately LNER about this and await a reply with interest, hoping to have something in writing to produce if challenged and to have corrected. To me, this is wrong and needs to be highlighted and addressed.


Thanking you in anticipation of your input.

So, what date and time do you wish to travel in each direction? Sorry, I missed the dates, there is so much text.
You can get the fare here on Railsmartr, for example. I suspect that LNER have set availability of this fare / route code combination to 0 on their trains, which is why there is no availability there.

 

[Haywain]

I am aware of single leg pricing on fares set by LNER, but this does not (or should not?) apply for this particular journey as it falls outside of the ‘fares simplification’ trial. Effectively, it forces (dupes) people into purchasing two higher priced Anytime singles where an off peak return should suffice.

This isn't what single leg pricing has done - under that system you can buy Off Peak Singles to travel at off peak times. However, LNER also have compulsory seat reservation meaning that you may not be able to book Off Peak tickets when they are, in fact, valid for travel but if that happens it should not be possible to buy Anytime tickets either. And to further the confusion, LNER have for journeys from London, abolished Off Peak fares as part pf a trial which means the only fully flexible tickets are the Anytime fares. All these things have allegedly been done in the interests of simplicity!

I have emailed separately LNER about this and await a reply with interest,

I'd be very surprised if LNER are able to give you an answer at all based on the information you have provided to us here.

 

[paddy1]

So, what date and time do you wish to travel in each direction? Sorry, I missed the dates, there is so much text.
You can get the fare here on Railsmartr, for example. I suspect that LNER have set availability of this fare / route code combination to 0 on their trains, which is why there is no availability there.

Out on 20th February, returning 25th February. Outbound from Kidsgrove 1045 change Crewe and Edinburgh. Returning from Arbroath 1050 change Edinburgh and Crewe.

So, what date and time do you wish to travel in each direction? Sorry, I missed the dates, there is so much text.
You can get the fare here on Railsmartr, for example. I suspect that LNER have set availability of this fare / route code combination to 0 on their trains, which is why there is no availability there.

Thanks. That does make sense. Means you can still buy the off peak ticket separately and then reserve a seat via the LNER app

 

[alistairlees]

Out on 20th February, returning 25th February. Outbound from Kidsgrove 1045 change Crewe and Edinburgh. Returning from Arbroath 1050 change Edinburgh and Crewe.


Thanks. That does make sense. Means you can still buy the off peak ticket separately and then reserve a seat via the LNER app

Yes, although that does mean that it's difficult to get reservations you want on the Avanti legs at the times you want...

 

[Watershed]

Having done a little bit of digging I suspect it comes down to LNER (falsely) marking their trains as 'reservations compulsory' in the timetable data, and then failing to make reservations available for ticket type code FSR (the code Avanti use for their Off-Peak 1st Returns) - probably accidentally, by failing to add it to some kind of 'whitelist'.

This kind of discrimination based on ticket type code has caused problems for other operators also playing the 'reservations compulsory' game, such as Grand Central. Frankly there should be neither discrimination by ticket type code, nor fake 'reservations compulsory' markers in the timetable data - but for the time being, the solution is simply to pick another train/itinerary to buy the ticket you want, and to then make manual reservations for each train you intend to travel on. This can be done through the TPE or GWR websites for any operator's services, or through the LNER website for their own trains (with the added benefit of a seat selector).

 

[paddy1]

Yes, although that does mean that it's difficult to get reservations you want on the Avanti legs at the times you want

Iv'e travelled on the 1109 Avanti from Crewe northbound a number of times without reservations and always managed to find seats in first class, but will still try for a reservation. There's also the option of via Glasgow where there's the option of an at least hourly Avanti service.

Having done a little bit of digging I suspect it comes down to LNER (falsely) marking their trains as 'reservations compulsory' in the timetable data, and then failing to make reservations available for ticket type code FSR (the code Avanti use for their Off-Peak 1st Returns) - probably accidentally, by failing to add it to some kind of 'whitelist'.

This kind of discrimination based on ticket type code has caused problems for other operators also playing the 'reservations compulsory' game, such as Grand Central. Frankly there should be neither discrimination by ticket type code, nor fake 'reservations compulsory' markers in the timetable data - but for the time being, the solution is simply to pick another train/itinerary to buy the ticket you want, and to then make manual reservations for each train you intend to travel on. This can be done through the TPE or GWR websites for any operator's services, or through the LNER website for their own trains (with the added benefit of a seat selector).

Thanks for highlighting the 'compulsory reservations' issue and the problems it causes and the 'workaround'. I will just buy the off peak ticket and reserve manually via the LNER or other TOC apps once Iv'e bought the tickets.

This isn't what single leg pricing has done - under that system you can buy Off Peak Singles to travel at off peak times. However, LNER also have compulsory seat reservation meaning that you may not be able to book Off Peak tickets when they are, in fact, valid for travel but if that happens it should not be possible to buy Anytime tickets either. And to further the confusion, LNER have for journeys from London, abolished Off Peak fares as part pf a trial which means the only fully flexible tickets are the Anytime fares. All these things have allegedly been done in the interests of simplicity!

I'd be very surprised if LNER are able to give you an answer at all based on the information you have provided to us here.

I would at least expect LNER to be able to answer yes or no regarding validity of off peak returns on their trains at off peak times.

 

[Mainline421]

This isn't what single leg pricing has done - under that system you can buy Off Peak Singles to travel at off peak times. However, LNER also have compulsory seat reservation meaning that you may not be able to book Off Peak tickets when they are, in fact, valid for travel but if that happens it should not be possible to buy Anytime tickets either. And to further the confusion, LNER have for journeys from London, abolished Off Peak fares as part pf a trial which means the only fully flexible tickets are the Anytime fares. All these things have allegedly been done in the interests of simplicity!

Pseudo-compulsory reservation it is important to stress. You can always buy any Off-Peak or Anytime ticket from any ticket office and many other TOC's TVMs regardless of reservation levels on any particular train.

but for the time being, the solution is simply to pick another train/itinerary to buy the ticket you want

This is bad practice as it exacerbates the problem, the real workaround is to use https://tickets.lumo.co.uk select the ticket you want (for use on LNER or Avanti) and purchase without a reservation (then make free reservations if desired). Although personally I would just buy it at the station on the day.

 

[paddy1]

Pseudo-compulsory reservation it is important to stress. You can always buy any Off-Peak or Anytime ticket from any ticket office and many other TOC's TVMs regardless of reservation levels on any particular train.

This is bad practice as it exacerbates the problem, the real workaround is to use https://tickets.lumo.co.uk select the ticket you want (for use on LNER or Avanti) and purchase without a reservation (then make free reservations if desired). Although personally I would just buy it at the station on the day.

Thank you. That is very useful to know you can buy from Lumo or other TOC's and circumvent the 'pseudo compulsory reservation' by making a free reservation with them where possible.

 

[robbeech]

This is bad practice as it exacerbates the problem

I agree it makes the problem worse but it’s unfair to make any complaint at passengers doing this when they are unable to do what they actually require.

What’s the real world alternative (other than hunting down the odd retailer that looks at the data a bit differently, that’s really not viable as a solution on a large scale).

It seems to me if people can’t book the trains they want because the railway has faffed about with its system to help them (but not passengers) and it’s bad practice to use methods that help the passenger then the car becomes more favourable once again.

If this is bad practice then how the TOCs behave by messing about with the reservation system is an order of magnitude worse.

 

[nwales58]

It seems to me if people can’t book the trains they want because the railway has faffed about with its system to help them (but not passengers) and it’s bad practice to use methods that help the passenger then the car becomes more favourable once again.

When was modal shift last seen in DfT's objectives for rail passenger operations? That is a serious question, not a joke.

GBR will be 'passenger focused' or 'customer focused' (sources: Louise Haigh's statements and press releases last autumn). That level of fuzziness is the best we have at present.

In urban rail investment modal shift, or CO2 reduction, is usually a main objective but when it comes to operating what has been built we lose sight of what we thought we would achieve.

(edits: spelling)

 

[Mainline421]

I agree it makes the problem worse but it’s unfair to make any complaint at passengers doing this when they are unable to do what they actually require.

What’s the real world alternative (other than hunting down the odd retailer that looks at the data a bit differently, that’s really not viable as a solution on a large scale).

It seems to me if people can’t book the trains they want because the railway has faffed about with its system to help them (but not passengers) and it’s bad practice to use methods that help the passenger then the car becomes more favourable once again.

If this is bad practice then how the TOCs behave by messing about with the reservation system is an order of magnitude worse.

I definitely wouldn't criticise passengers for doing this. I suspect it's very common these days as it's the only method most would know about, especially since many retailers force both legs to be selected for a return. Trains are usually filled with unclaimed reservations after all. The real world alternative is to use a station ticket office (at least that's LNER's official advice), but for whatever psychological reason many people like to purchase before the time of travel even when there is no advantage to doing so. That said, since Mixing Desk offers an easy online solution, it’s currently by far the best advice for anyone affected. That way it doesn't run risk the risk of those not in the know thinking they can't travel or shelling out for first class unnecessarily.

Really the compulsory reservation flag needs to be banned entirely outside overnight services, but the government doesn't seem to want to step in.

Thank you. That is very useful to know you can buy from Lumo or other TOC's and circumvent the 'pseudo compulsory reservation' by making a free reservation with them where possible.

No problem! But just to clarify, making a free reservation isn’t really necessary, I’d just board and sit in Coach C. Just make sure to book through this Lumo URL rather than the main site.

 

[Haywain]

I’d just board and sit in Coach C.

However, the OP wants to travel further along the train in first class!