First Class signage on TPE 802 units

[jfollows]

I wondered if anyone else had shared my confusion, or was it just a senior moment on my part:
I went to Liverpool yesterday and I thought I'd try out a TPE 802 for the first time, I went into Manchester from Wilmslow and then took 9M08 10:23 manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street, calling at Newton-le-Willows.
I clearly wasn't thinking straight, but I got on the train - it wasn't busy - and found myself a nice seat and was impressed with the quiet comfort. Then, as we were getting nearer to our only stop it occurred to me that 2+1 seating meant that I was in First Class and I had a Cheshire Day Ranger which didn't entitle me to be there. I got up and looked around for a bit, but there was absolutely no indication I could see anywhere inside the train that this was First Class.
Anyway, I moved back a coach when we stopped, so I got to sample Standard Class also, which seemed fine, also, as I say it wasn't busy.
When we arrived in Liverpool I looked a bit more and the only indication I saw that I'd been in First Class was on the exterior side of the coach, neither particularly clear or unclear. There did not appear to be anything inside the train at all.
Anyway, I can put this down to stupidity on my part - but then I read here so many times about people being "caught" in First Class and sometimes saying that they hadn't realised. In the past I assumed they were trying it on, but for these TPE units I'd think otherwise, it was completely unclear. Other than the 2+1 seating.
Has anyone else noticed or thought the same? Or was this just a lack of proper signage on one particular unit (802 212)? And, of course, brain fade on my part, but I was so interested in looking around a new type of train that the 2+1 seating didn't initially figure at all.

I came back on 1L14 14:51 Liverpool-Norwich which was short-formed of only 2-car 158 865, so it was completely rammed leaving Manchester and I had to politely squeeze my way off at Stockport. Something of a contrast with my outbound journey!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The Nova 1 first class in my opinion is arguably worlds apart from the Nova 2 and 3 first class, and not in a good way. The former is as bland as cottage pie, whereas the latter two are actually quite nice.

 

[jfollows]

"Nova 1" being the class 802, I infer. I know it's a frequently used term on this forum, it's just not one I use personally. But actually the one I was in was quite spacious and comfortable, if a bit spartan (and unmarked!).

 

[Martin222002]

I wondered if anyone else had shared my confusion, or was it just a senior moment on my part:
I went to Liverpool yesterday and I thought I'd try out a TPE 802 for the first time, I went into Manchester from Wilmslow and then took 9M08 10:23 manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street, calling at Newton-le-Willows.
I clearly wasn't thinking straight, but I got on the train - it wasn't busy - and found myself a nice seat and was impressed with the quiet comfort. Then, as we were getting nearer to our only stop it occurred to me that 2+1 seating meant that I was in First Class and I had a Cheshire Day Ranger which didn't entitle me to be there. I got up and looked around for a bit, but there was absolutely no indication I could see anywhere inside the train that this was First Class.
Anyway, I moved back a coach when we stopped, so I got to sample Standard Class also, which seemed fine, also, as I say it wasn't busy.
When we arrived in Liverpool I looked a bit more and the only indication I saw that I'd been in First Class was on the exterior side of the coach, neither particularly clear or unclear. There did not appear to be anything inside the train at all.
Anyway, I can put this down to stupidity on my part - but then I read here so many times about people being "caught" in First Class and sometimes saying that they hadn't realised. In the past I assumed they were trying it on, but for these TPE units I'd think otherwise, it was completely unclear. Other than the 2+1 seating.
Has anyone else noticed or thought the same? Or was this just a lack of proper signage on one particular unit (802 212)? And, of course, brain fade on my part, but I was so interested in looking around a new type of train that the 2+1 seating didn't initially figure at all.

I came back on 1L14 14:51 Liverpool-Norwich which was short-formed of only 2-car 158 865, so it was completely rammed leaving Manchester and I had to politely squeeze my way off at Stockport. Something of a contrast with my outbound journey!

Pretty sure it's been said in the past that Hitachi are oddly very pernickety about what signage are added to the exterior and interior of their trains.

 

[jfollows]

Pretty sure it's been said in the past that Hitachi are oddly very pernickety about what signage are added to the exterior and interior of their trains.

That's interesting, thank you.
Yes, the interior did seem very "clean" or "spartan" and most of it was a welcome change from the over-provision of signs and warnings on most other stock these days. We also didn't seem to get assailed with announcements along the lines of the "see it, say it, sorted" nonsense which I think I got twice earlier on between Wilmslow and Manchester Piccadilly.
I did find the units quite nice and appropriate for the service. A colleague who lives to the south of Wigan with whom I had lunch yesterday in Liverpool told me that nowadays he tends to use Newton-le-Willows for trains into Manchester these days, and a non-stop service on the sort of train I was on yesterday certainly seems fine.

 

[DanNCL]

Pretty sure it's been said in the past that Hitachi are oddly very pernickety about what signage are added to the exterior and interior of their trains.

Hitachi have no say over the matter with the 802s as they aren’t part of the IEP contract. It’s entirely up to the ROSCO and the TOC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It indeed seems there's almost nothing indicating 1st on these units. It'd seem easy to have embroidered "First Class" on the headrests, added a yellow stripe and a big 1 by the door!

 

[fgwrich]

Hitachi have no say over the matter with the 802s as they aren’t part of the IEP contract. It’s entirely up to the ROSCO and the TOC.

IIRC, While they don't have as much of a say over the TPE Units, they did still have a small say in the interiors. The CAF and Siemens TPE First Class seats both use a mixture of Leather and Moquette on their seats, however Hitachi count's that as a brand new seat (and therefore would have had to be put through their fire regs etc), despite being the same as the other 80Xs. They've obviously been persuaded otherwise now as the Avanti FC seats have a mix as per the Pendolino's.

As for how fastidious Hitachi are regarding stickers and signs on "their" IEP Units, it's ridiculous. The fact that should GWR wish to additional signage to their units, it has to go through to a board of approval is crazy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

IIRC, While they don't have as much of a say over the TPE Units, they did still have a small say in the interiors. The CAF and Siemens TPE First Class seats both use a mixture of Leather and Moquette on their seats, however Hitachi count's that as a brand new seat (and therefore would have had to be put through their fire regs etc), despite being the same as the other 80Xs. They've obviously been persuaded otherwise now as the Avanti FC seats have a mix as per the Pendolino's.

I suppose First were putting a wholly new seat through for Standard anyway (though I guess that was done for Lumo).

 

[DanNCL]

IIRC, While they don't have as much of a say over the TPE Units, they did still have a small say in the interiors. The CAF and Siemens TPE First Class seats both use a mixture of Leather and Moquette on their seats, however Hitachi count's that as a brand new seat (and therefore would have had to be put through their fire regs etc), despite being the same as the other 80Xs. They've obviously been persuaded otherwise now as the Avanti FC seats have a mix as per the Pendolino's.

Hitachi had a say as to how the units were delivered, but once the units had been handed over to TPE Hitachi no longer had any say in the matter. My guess is TPE will be using some sort of ’’it’ll void the warranty” excuse to get out of it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hitachi had a say as to how the units were delivered, but once the units had been handed over to TPE Hitachi no longer had any say in the matter. My guess is TPE will be using some sort of ’’it’ll void the warranty” excuse to get out of it.

I very much doubt sticking stickers on the inside of the window saying First Class (in the sort of place where it used to say No Smoking) would void anything. Similarly they could have it embroidered into the headrests, which are removable fabric things.

 

[DanNCL]

I very much doubt sticking stickers on the inside of the window saying First Class (in the sort of place where it used to say No Smoking) would void anything.

That’s why I said it was an excuse.

 

[jfollows]

Thanks all, you've confirmed that although I was definitely being a bit thoughtless by wandering into and sitting down in First Class in the first place, once I twigged what I'd done I hadn't really missed any obvious signs because there are none. But I'll definitely take any future "I didn't realise I was in First Class" cases with greater credibility in future.

 

[Tetchytyke]

As for how fastidious Hitachi are regarding stickers and signs on "their" IEP Units, it's ridiculous. The fact that should GWR wish to additional signage to their units, it has to go through to a board of approval is crazy.

Standard outsourcing practice, as it’s a great way of ratcheting up the fees.

As for the TPE 802s, it’s certainly muted in first class but I quite like it. There aren’t a lot of stickers warning about first class mind.

 

[Spartacus]

I'd just be happy if they had something on the front to indicate which end first was at before it's almost drawn up and you can see if any of the windows are blanked out or not.

 

[J-P_L]

I'd just be happy if they had something on the front to indicate which end first was at before it's almost drawn up and you can see if any of the windows are blanked out or not.

The white hoop (see photo) on the light above the driving cab indicates first class is at that end of the train.

 

[Spartacus]

The white hoop (see photo) on the light above the driving cab indicates first class is at that end of the train.

Thanks for that, never noticed it before.

 

[plugwash]

"Nova 1" being the class 802, I infer.

"Nova" is TPEs branding for their new trains. Nova 1 is class 802, Nova 2 is class 397 and Nova 3 is class 68 + mark 5a.

 

[Christmas]

The white hoop (see photo) on the light above the driving cab indicates first class is at that end of the train.

I suppose that's some sort of internal way of identifying 1st that normal passengers wouldn't have a clue about. Even then, that's only useful if you are watching the train pull in. A simple yellow band, adapted to suit the livery is the best option, or a yellow 1 on the exterior glass at the the door.
Style over substance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose that's some sort of internal way of identifying 1st that normal passengers wouldn't have a clue about. Even then, that's only useful if you are watching the train pull in. A simple yellow band, adapted to suit the livery is the best option, or a yellow 1 on the exterior glass at the the door.
Style over substance.

It should have a yellow stripe at cantrail level and a big 1 by the doors. Plus the headrests should have "FIRST CLASS" embroidered onto them. This is the European standard and there is no excuse not to follow it.

None of this is hard.

 

[XAM2175]

"Nova" is TPEs branding for their new trains. Nova 1 is class 802, Nova 2 is class 397 and Nova 3 is class 68 + mark 5a.

The "Nova" bit is well known, it's just that the nobody ever remembers which Nova number is which class - hence my long advocacy for a ban on using those terms here

It should have a yellow stripe at cantrail level and a big 1 by the doors. Plus the headrests should have "FIRST CLASS" embroidered onto them. This is the European standard and there is no excuse not to follow it.

None of this is hard.

Agreed.

 

[supervc-10]

The "Nova" bit is well known, it's just that the nobody ever remembers which Nova number is which class - hence my long advocacy for a ban on using those terms here

Agreed - but I just realised reading @plugwash's post - the higher the number, the more interesting the train!
Nova 1 is just yet another Hitachi 80X - they're everywhere.
Nova 2 is a unique 125mph EMU, but there are other 125mph EMUs.
Nova 3 is a weird push-pull diesel loco hauled set unlike anything else in the country!*

But yes - the Nova branding is a bit confusing and I normally can never remember which one is which

*well, being used currently!

 

[fgwrich]

The white hoop (see photo) on the light above the driving cab indicates first class is at that end of the train.

Same as on Great Western, though some of those have already peeled off as they are just a small piece of vinyl on an area likely to be constantly battered by the wind / rain etc.

I suppose that's some sort of internal way of identifying 1st that normal passengers wouldn't have a clue about. Even then, that's only useful if you are watching the train pull in. A simple yellow band, adapted to suit the livery is the best option, or a yellow 1 on the exterior glass at the the door.
Style over substance.

Or SWR (and just about GWR) style door flags. I don't see what's so hard about incorporating something as simple as those these days - most can be done with vinyl after all!

 

[plugwash]

*well, being used currently!

TFW are running diesel hauled MK4 sets but yeah loco hauled sets are very much the exception nowadays.

 

[Plasmanoodle]

The white hoop (see photo) on the light above the driving cab indicates first class is at that end of the train.

I’ve long thought this was the case, but I’ve never had anyone confirm it. Thanks for posting that.

 

[DanNCL]

802218 has a first class sticker very similar to those carried by 800001 when it first arrived in the UK. Never seen this on a TPE unit before, is it new or have I just not noticed it before?

 

[jfollows]

802218 has a first class sticker very similar to those carried by 800001 when it first arrived in the UK. Never seen this on a TPE unit before, is it new or have I just not noticed it before?
View attachment 130474

That's the one I saw when I got of 802212 at Liverpool Lime Street, having missed it when I boarded at Manchester Victoria. You could put it down to my lack of attention, but probably we've both simply missed it. And this appears to be the only sign saying "First Class" although I may have missed another one elsewhere. I only saw this sticker when I got off because I was now actively looking for something like it.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Some Hitachi units I've seen a 1 on the door, which I think is the clearest identifier and GWR have the silver line above the carriage too

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some Hitachi units I've seen a 1 on the door, which I think is the clearest identifier and GWR have the silver line above the carriage too

Unless it's a 385, no use on the door as you can't see it when open. The proper location is at about head height to the inner side of the door, near where the logo is.

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

Agreed - but I just realised reading @plugwash's post - the higher the number, the more interesting the train!
Nova 1 is just yet another Hitachi 80X - they're everywhere.
Nova 2 is a unique 125mph EMU, but there are other 125mph EMUs.
Nova 3 is a weird push-pull diesel loco hauled set unlike anything else in the country!*

But yes - the Nova branding is a bit confusing and I normally can never remember which one is which

*well, being used currently!

Technically I don’t think there are any other 125mph EMUs (or electric locos) in the country. They are all 140 capable