First national rail TOC rolling stock with all longitudinal seating?

[sekimoke]

Hi there, I was wondering about the interior of the class 378s.
Some stock like the class 455s have partial longitudinal seating, but are the class 378s the first national rail operated rolling stock to have it throughout the train in the UK?

I know that most tube stock has all longitudinal seating and that as a result the Isle of Wight stock has it but I'm discounting that.

 

[asylumxl]

I believe so, yes. The 378s are the first and only so far.

 

[yorkie]

London Underground, including the deep level tube lines, are heavy rail.

Assuming you mean operated by a National Rail TOC, then yes I'd be very surprised if it wasn't the first.

I certainly hope it's the last! (even the London Underground S stock has some normal seats!)

 

[RichmondCommu]

London Underground, including the deep level tube lines, are heavy rail.

Assuming you mean operated by a National Rail TOC, then yes I'd be very surprised if it wasn't the first.

I certainly hope it's the last! (even the London Underground S stock has some normal seats!)

In all fairness the Class 378's have been very successful because of their seating arrangement. I would imagine that the Crossrail will have some longitudinal seating given that the line runs through central London.

 

[Tobbes]

For the journeys the 378s make, their layout is excellent. I've always though that it is probably better to think of the routes as Underground / metro that happens to be heavy rail overground - in which case their layout makes a lot more sense.

 

[sekimoke]

London Underground, including the deep level tube lines, are heavy rail.

Assuming you mean operated by a National Rail TOC, then yes I'd be very surprised if it wasn't the first.

I certainly hope it's the last! (even the London Underground S stock has some normal seats!)

Sorry yes, that's what I meant

As people have said it certainly does it's job in carrying passengers whether or not bums are on seats...

 

[Prairie_5542]

Island line trains? But they have normal seats also.

 

[swt_passenger]

In all fairness the Class 378's have been very successful because of their seating arrangement. I would imagine that the Crossrail will have some longitudinal seating given that the line runs through central London.

Roughly 50/50 is probable, as they've been stated to have 450 seats per ten car train, 45 per car. 378s have about 30 seats per car on average, so I think the 345s will need about half the seated areas as 2+2 to make the total numbers work.

 

[D365]

Island Line trains? But they have normal seats also.

Fair point, if we're counting it as National Rail, which we can. Crossrail will have a mix too, from new:

Roughly 50/50 is probable, as they've been stated to have 450 seats per ten car train, 45 per car. 378s have about 30 seats per car on average, so I think the 345s will need about half the seated areas as 2+2 to make the total numbers work.

The thread title is not currently valid as LO have the 8 172s, but if these are replaced by further 378s (logically), it will be true. In case anyone wants to know, these [Class 172] weren't built with longitudinal seating as they were (and are) only expected to be a short to medium term solution until electrification is finalised (which it has been) - Angel Trains wanting to cascade them quickly and easily, of course.

 

[Muzer]

Where will the 8 172s go? Are there any routes for which 8 unique diesels would be welcome? Are they close enough to 170s to be of use to any of those TOCs?

 

[Class377/5]

Roughly 50/50 is probable, as they've been stated to have 450 seats per ten car train, 45 per car. 378s have about 30 seats per car on average, so I think the 345s will need about half the seated areas as 2+2 to make the total numbers work.

Something a la S8 Tube stock then?

 

[yorkie]

Island line trains?

Nope.

But they have normal seats also.

Indeed they do. Not all seats are longitudinal.

The Piccadilly tube stock (1973) may have been the first to be all longitudinal. The Bakerloo (1972) has some normal seats.
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In all fairness the Class 378's have been very successful because of their seating arrangement.

I would argue that the S stock on the Met is how it should be done, and is a fair compromise.

 

[swt_passenger]

Something a la S8 Tube stock then?

Something along those lines, but if in broad numbers you assume you can get about 15 or 16 seats along one side of a 20m vehicle (like the 378) then that would mean about 30 seats along the other side of the same vehicle. But then there's also supposedly the requirement for large standback areas by the doors, and wide through gangways, both of which probably conflict with ordinary 2+2 either near the doors, or near the wide inter car gangways...

Of course that 450 seats is an average, there'll probably be a couple of 'universal access' areas which makes those carriages a bit lower seating capacity than the others, so some will be higher. Will be interesting to see what they eventually come up with.

 

[WestCountry]

Where will the 8 172s go? Are there any routes for which 8 unique diesels would be welcome? Are they close enough to 170s to be of use to any of those TOCs?

They're identical to Chiltern's (even smaller) 172 fleet, so I'd imagine they'll end up running into Marylebone. With Oxford and Milton Keynes services on the horizon, Chiltern will be needing more stock.

 

[anthony263]

They're identical to Chiltern's (even smaller) 172 fleet, so I'd imagine they'll end up running into Marylebone. With Oxford and Milton Keynes services on the horizon, Chiltern will be needing more stock.

Dont forget FGW should be able to release a lot of class 165/166's which could suplement chilterns fleet of course their top speed 0f 90mph will be good for chiltern.

Ideally the 90mph class 165/166's if any go to chiltern can be used on services where the linespeed is higher than 75mph.

Chilterns class 172's can be used to sort out the local service between West Ruislip and London Marylebone as their top speed of 100mph along with faster acceleration allows them to keep out of the way of express services to Birmingham and Oxford etc.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I would argue that the S stock on the Met is how it should be done, and is a fair compromise.

But in all fairness how often do you use the LO network and for what purpose? Most users are only on the trains for a few minutes and are too interested in the contents of their phones to even try and look out the window.

I suspect that the average journey on the S stock is longer than on a class 378, hence the different type of seats.

 

[A60K]

The Piccadilly tube stock (1973) may have been the first to be all longitudinal.

No, it wasn't - the all-longitudinal seating layout was introduced with the refurbishment in the 1990s. When the 1973 stock came into service (in 1975, despite the name!) there were the traditional two pairs of bay seating between the double doors of the driving motor cars, the same as in (from memory) 1959, 1960, 1962, 1967, 1972 MkI and II tube stocks.

The 1983 tube stock had a slightly different layout although still with some bays, the 1986 tube stock had bays of 1+1 in the blue train and all-longitudinal in the red and green trains IIRC, but it was the 1992 tube stock on the Central line that was the first all-longitudinal seating stock anywhere in England (or at least since the very early tube stocks anyway).

First proposals for the 1973 stock refurbishment had a 1+2 bay layout with some luggage stacks, but when it took place in the mid-90s it became the all-longitudinal layout you see today.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Where will the 8 172s go? Are there any routes for which 8 unique diesels would be welcome? Are they close enough to 170s to be of use to any of those TOCs?

If I have my way (which as a mere passenger with no influence is unlikely) they'll go to Southern and run on the Marshlink, freeing up Class 171s to improve the service on the Uckfield line.

Not that I have a vested interest in this solution of course!

 

[jopsuk]

They're identical to Chiltern's (even smaller) 172 fleet, so I'd imagine they'll end up running into Marylebone. With Oxford and Milton Keynes services on the horizon, Chiltern will be needing more stock.

Don't LM run their 172s (which have gangways) with 170s, 153s etc?

 

[Eagle]

They do.

 

[southern442]

If I have my way (which as a mere passenger with no influence is unlikely) they'll go to Southern and run on the Marshlink, freeing up Class 171s to improve the service on the Uckfield line.

Not that I have a vested interest in this solution of course!

That is actually a pretty decent idea.

 

[Chrisgr31]

That is actually a pretty decent idea.

I have suggested it to my MP, and know another MP that has suggested it to his, never know someone in a position to make it happen might think its a good idea if enough suggest it via roundabout routes!