First Rail Stirling (Lumo) Rolling Stock

[Liverpool 507]

The current Apprentice Customer Driver vacancies for First Stirling, operating under Lumo, state that applicants successful will be required to drive 222 units. Is this a stopgap whilst 80X stock are obtained?

 

[cj_1985]

The current Apprentice Customer Driver vacancies for First Stirling, operating under Lumo, state that applicants successful will be required to drive 222 units. Is this a stopgap whilst 80X stock are obtained?

Given that First only formally ordered the new 80x units for HT/Lumo at the end of 2024, and they plan to launch services this year (iirc)... yes, I expect 22x units to be used initially until the new build units can be built, tested and introduced

 

[fgwrich]

Given that First only formally ordered the new 80x units for HT/Lumo at the end of 2024, and they plan to launch services this year (iirc)... yes, I expect 22x units to be used initially until the new build units can be built, tested and introduced

I do wonder though how much of a stopgap the 222s could be given Hitachi’s current performance with the 810s. Although they are further advanced than the 80X units already built for FG, experience learned by Derby doesn’t always prove new batches of older designs are particularly box ready.

 

[Bob Price]

The 805 and 807's went through testing and into service very quickly and seem reliable. Hitachi may have learned from the issues with the GWR and LNER sets and put this right.

 

[800001]

The 805 and 807's went through testing and into service very quickly and seem reliable. Hitachi may have learned from the issues with the GWR and LNER sets and put this right.

The 810s are coming up to 3 years late! Should have started to be in service from 2022, yet EMR still has not had a single unit delivered to them to start training.

Only 3 units are currently involved in testing, 001, 003 and 004.

 

[Bletchleyite]

These 222s seem to be popping up in far more places than the number of them available would suggest...that isn't going to have a good outcome for someone, be that Lumo or ScotRail.

 

[222001]

These 222s seem to be popping up in far more places than the number of them available would suggest...that isn't going to have a good outcome for someone, be that Lumo or ScotRail.

Looking at the proposed timetable, Lumo will need 5 sets for their Stirling service (4 in use, and 1 for maintenance). That leaves 22 for ScotRail's 19 required diagrams, which sounds about right. None for anybody else though.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Do we have any idea what Lumo’s new units will be? More 80X, or a totally new build?

 

[swt_passenger]

Do we have any idea what Lumo’s new units will be? More 80X, or a totally new build?

80x. I’m sure it’s covered already, but there’s not really a single obvious thread to quote. Quite a few threads are spread around about First/Grand Union/Lumo, Stirling/Carmarthen/Paignton, but First’s stock exchange announcement is clearly about so many 80x for already agreed OA routes, include Hull, and options for more for their other routes that at the time were yet to be confirmed. Most of the discussion took place in December, but I don’t think anything has changed.

 

[DanNCL]

You’d think ScotRail would be more attractive to the ROSCO than Lumo as ScotRail would take the whole class whereas Lumo likely wouldn’t.

221s are an option if there’s still any spare, otherwise Lumo may have to wait for the extra 80xs to be built.

 

[SolomonSouth]

80x. I’m sure it’s covered already, but there’s not really a single obvious thread to quote. Quite a few threads are spreadcaround about First/Grand Union/Lumo, Stirling/Carmarthen/Paignton, but First’s stock exchange announcement is clearly about so many 80x for already agreed OA routes, include Hull, and options for more for their other routes that at the time were yet to be confirmed. Most of the discussion took place in December, but I don’t think anything has changed.

I suppose more 80X would be ideal for fleet commonality. Plus, the issues of the 800-802 seem to be ironed out in the latest developments of the 80X (805 and 807).

 

[222001]

You’d think ScotRail would be more attractive to the ROSCO than Lumo as ScotRail would take the whole class whereas Lumo likely wouldn’t.

221s are an option if there’s still any spare, otherwise Lumo may have to wait for the extra 80xs to be built.

If there's an assumption the WSMR service will use 221s - which will require 4 units for 3 diagrams, then there are currently only 2 221s with no 'home' (4 if you include the 2 semi-permanently leased to GC.

 

[DanNCL]

If there's an assumption the WSMR service will use 221s - which will require 4 units for 3 diagrams, then there are currently only 2 221s with no 'home' (4 if you include the 2 semi-permanently leased to GC.

Does the WSMR service have firm access rights or is it still just an application?

 

[notadriver]

The entire route from Stirling to Euston can be done under the wires ? Can anyone point me to an electrification map ?

 

[Clarence Yard]

The Lumo Stirling operation requires 30 cars - 5 x 6 car. The first cl.222 is due off EMR (much) later this year.

The remaining 113 cars of cl.222 stock are expected to go to Scotland, once their procurement process finishes.

 

[222001]

Does the WSMR service have firm access rights or is it still just an application?

Not yet, although it was the only current application not opposed by the DFT back in February, so it's certainly looking likely.

The Lumo Stirling operation requires 30 cars - 5 x 6 car. The first cl.222 is due off EMR (much) later this year.

The remaining 113 cars of cl.222 stock are expected to go to Scotland, once their procurement process finishes.

All adds up. 5 sets (for 4 diagrams) for Lumo, 22 sets (for 19 diagrams) for SR.

 

[JonathanH]

The Lumo Stirling operation requires 30 cars - 5 x 6 car. The first cl.222 is due off EMR (much) later this year.

A further permutation of the 222 formations. First time with six coaches though.

That means Scotrail end up with at least two 4 car units?

 

[Simon11]

Track access has only been granted for five years for the Stirling operation, so you would expect Lumo to use the 222 as a temporary measure and seek a new track access agreement along with utilising new rolling stock if the route is successful.

ORR: Open access services given green light between London and Stirling | Office of Rail and Road

The latest access decision by the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) provides more services for rail passengers travelling between London and central Scotland.

www.orr.gov.uk

 

[222001]

A further permutation of the 222 formations. First time with six coaches though.

That means Scotrail end up with at least two 4 car units?

If ScotRail take all 113 vehicles remaining it'll be 19 5 cars and 3 6 cars.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The entire route from Stirling to Euston can be done under the wires ? Can anyone point me to an electrification map ?

Fully wired as far as Dunblane.
If need be, there are wired diversionary routes from Stirling via Edinburgh or Glasgow Central (reverse in both cases) to Carstairs.
Non-tilt 222s won't be able to travel at more than 110mph on the WCML*, though ex-Avanti 221s could if they still have their tilt mechanisms.

* presumably when the faster MU profile comes in south of Weaver Jn for 80x services, that will apply to all 22x as well.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

If ScotRail take all 113 vehicles remaining it'll be 19 5 cars and 3 6 cars.

or, 22x 5-cars and three vehicles removed.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Fully wired as far as Dunblane.
If need be, there are wired diversionary routes from Stirling via Edinburgh or Glasgow Central (reverse in both cases) to Carstairs.
Non-tilt 222s won't be able to travel at more than 110mph on the WCML*, though ex-Avanti 221s could if they still have their tilt mechanisms.

* presumably when the faster MU profile comes in south of Weaver Jn for 80x services, that will apply to all 22x as well.

For the purposes of this application, electrification is not available North of Crewe, particularly around Weaver Junction.

There is simply not enough power in the existing infrastructure to support additional services, so the route is essentially not electrified for open access and other new services.

 

[DanNCL]

Not yet, although it was the only current application not opposed by the DFT back in February, so it's certainly looking likely.


All adds up. 5 sets (for 4 diagrams) for Lumo, 22 sets (for 19 diagrams) for SR.

Then it’s not worth assuming WSMR will get 221s. Even if the DFT aren’t opposed there’s still a chance they don’t get their application approved, whereas First Stirling has been approved.

I think it’s worth noting that the ScotRail tender is for a minimum of 19 diagrams rather than exactly 19 diagrams. That would suggest they’d be open to taking the whole fleet, in which case the ROSCO would be daft to stop them just to allow a micro fleet of them to do a short term lease elsewhere.

For the purposes of this application, electrification is not available North of Crewe, particularly around Weaver Junction.

There is simply not enough power in the existing infrastructure to support additional services, so the route is essentially not electrified for open access and other new services.

That surprises me considering the amount of electric freight that’s either stopped running altogether (Royal Mail) or converted to diesel haulage (everything else DB).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then it’s not worth assuming WSMR will get 221s. Even if the DFT aren’t opposed there’s still a chance they don’t get their application approved, whereas First Stirling has been approved.

I think it’s worth noting that the ScotRail tender is for a minimum of 19 diagrams rather than exactly 19 diagrams. That would suggest they’d be open to taking the whole fleet, in which case the ROSCO would be daft to stop them just to allow a micro fleet of them to do a short term lease elsewhere.

It might well be possible to maintain the full fleet at a depot near Stirling, meaning it isn't a micro fleet, and then ScotRail might take them once Lumo have finished with them?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Then it’s not worth assuming WSMR will get 221s. Even if the DFT aren’t opposed there’s still a chance they don’t get their application approved, whereas First Stirling has been approved.

I think it’s worth noting that the ScotRail tender is for a minimum of 19 diagrams rather than exactly 19 diagrams. That would suggest they’d be open to taking the whole fleet, in which case the ROSCO would be daft to stop them just to allow a micro fleet of them to do a short term lease elsewhere.


That surprises me considering the amount of electric freight that’s either stopped running altogether (Royal Mail) or converted to diesel haulage (everything else DB).

The electric rights still exist. Those rights can be resold or used for other purposes, so whilst they are not currently being used - you can't work around them, as the rights holder can, if they wish, start running electric services again whenever they fancy.

Large swathes of the WCML network north of Crewe should be essentially considered as no longer AC electrified for new services.

You may well find that having DEMUs works well for the Stirling services, route knowledge could be maintained for diversions via Kilmarnock and Settle, now there would be no need for expensive locomotives. Potential also for via Hexham and ECML given the wider First Group operations.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Commendable optimism from First Group that they'll have 222s this year. Latest attributable comment we have on the 810s is based on a Facebook post by Neil O'Brien, the MP for Harborough & Wigston.

I met with the Rail Minister today to chase on progress with the new electric trains. They should be rolling out from Autumn - about one a week, so it will take about six months.

The general consensus from what I hope are informed commentators here is that the 810 programme is not going well, and that the the 222 fleet is intensively utilized / over-stretched. This means handing any 222s over to First or Scotrail before the 810s are match fit could have a pretty much instant, public and painful impact on EMR's intercity operation. So if you're thinking Autumn, I would suggest imagining dark December days just before the winter solstice. Or he may have meant Autumn 2026.

Post in class 810 thread

Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

Only going by what I’ve been told from my source, which was the date they had been told for handover (June), would not happen, but as we all know, many people say different things, or have not even been updated with the latest news. Thoroughly fair comment, old chap, and always good to compare...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[The Middle]

If the 222s are off lease the progress of the 810s is irrelevant. They will be handed back to to the ROSCO whether there are units ready to replace them or not

 

[InTheEastMids]

If the 222s are off lease the progress of the 810s is irrelevant. They will be handed back to to the ROSCO whether there are units ready to replace them or not

Rail services are very political, so it's not irrelevant if the EMR IC service collapses. Opposition MPs along the route will start howling and asking awkward, embarrassing questions at PMQs, showing that the Government is not competent to manage the railways, and by extension, many other parts of the public sector.

Perhaps Sec of State Alexander and Rail Minister Hendy will allow this to happen to their boss.

However, perhaps First starting recruitment actually means that there is growing confidence that enough 810s will be in service to start releasing 222s, meaning Peter Hendy's optimism is well informed and this forum's cynicism is misplaced.

Or perhaps a deal will be done, and First and Scotrail may be compensated. It wouldn't be the first time that stock transfers have been fudged due to new stock being late.

 

[cj_1985]

If the 222s are off lease the progress of the 810s is irrelevant. They will be handed back to to the ROSCO whether there are units ready to replace them or not

Is the right answer

 

[BlueLeanie]

They will be using the 350/2's from WMR.

350/2s for First Stirling or EMR?