First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[MB162435]

The 510 loadings demonstrated perfrectly the futilty of Okehampton-Launceston-Camelford-Newquay, however useful it was for me. Hourly to St Mawes and the ridiculous Veryan-St Austell show just how poorly thought out these changes are and whatever the GCB fans say, any new services are Cornwall Council ideas and not GCB. At this stage GCB are just replicating what GCB requested, except for positioning moves. I also note that connections between the 6A and the buses further west in Launceston are truly awful.

Once Kernow and Stagecoach have finalised everything they will run, the rest that is left will end up being a very expensive Cornwall mistake (not the first Cornwall have made to be honest). Also, to those saying Cornwall are being innovative, they are not, they have been handed Government cash and are highlighting exactly the problem of Governments giving councillors wads of cash to spend on buses that they clearly have no clue about. I'd love to be proved wrong, but on the evidence thus far, this will be a very costly mistake that could put extra funding across the country in jeopardy (just like Buses for Sheffield has already highlighted all that is wrong with giving councils more power).

How many times do we have to explain that in this situation the council will have to withdraw if Kernow stay and so there will be no enhancement at all, as has been shown in Dorset where they tried the same and failed monumentally with HUGE frequency reductions and huge swathes without a bus at all. Passengers were clearly the winners there...not. Unless you are part of the PCB team, surely you can't be this niaive.

don’t worry they won’t have such an increase. As per my previous post which you’ve seemingly taken no notice of, part of the tender and registration process is that if another operator then registers commercially, that tender and registration is withdrawn, unless the other operator wants to gamble on commercial too. That would be commercial suicide as they’d know the routes are perhaps marginally viable but certainly not viable if sharing the passenger load. The road between Newquay and padstow can’t take so many buses meeting all over the place as was discovered when A2B tried a few summers back. It caused absolute chaos on the coast road.

This thread is becoming the Jeremy Kyle show all of the sudden, people seem to be forcing me into becoming pro GCB and anti Kernow, I want both to thrive along side each other, neither will ever be perfect but, as long as both provide a decent level of service, everyone will be happy

If Kernow register commercial services, and GCB has to withdraw then that's no problem, apparently GCB has no drivers so they'll be fine with that less drivers to hire, although some places will have a less frequent service then currently being proposed

But people in the Lizard are loving that they now have a choice between Kernow and GCB and many other people will too in lots of places, if one raises their prices or reduce the service they can go to the other, or just pick the most convenient, currently they are stuck with Kernow, if the service goes down or prices go up, they can't do anything

Giving a company a monopoly doesn't do favours, passengers will benefit either way

https://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/news/18271608.go-cornwall-returns-hourly-buses-helston-lizard/

 

[RELL6L]

The Helston - Lizard service is definitely being enhanced with First running an hourly service from Truro via Helston to The Lizard during the day time with Citybus increasing the current frequency of every 2 hours from Redruth - The Lizard to hourly as well as bringing the late bus back. True that Citybus won't be able to rely on the Council subsidy but it in a region of Cornwall where very few people use the bus its suprising that First have all of a sudden registered the service as commercial. Time will inevitably tell how it pans out with both operators.

I don't know how the rules work but IMHO it wouldn't be right if the subsidy was withdrawn from GCB's Helston-Lizard service on the basis of what First have registered (as currently shown on Traveline). Their L1 is almost all a daytime only service. On schooldays the first bus leaves Lizard at 8.55, the next at 11.15, hourly for most of the day then a gap between 16.05 and 19.11. From Helston the first bus is at 10.29, hourly to 14.29 then a late one at 18.29. One more each way in school holidays. Almost none to Ruan Minor, none of the school journeys. Works maybe for a few day trippers to Lizard but not much else. It then goes on to Truro but the first arrival is at 10.27, the last departure 14.40 then one at 17.40. It's just something to keep buses running between school trips and a spoiler to stop it working for GCB - to describe it as an "hourly" service is a bit misleading. I think the A5 is a bit of the same, no morning peak hour workings, fewer route variations. I think First have done great things in Cornwall and the current L1 timetable looks pretty sensible - yes fill it in to be hourly with subsidy but here First seem to be saying to the council and GCB "if we can't have it then we're going to wreck it for you".

 

[MrKnow]

I don't know how the rules work but IMHO it wouldn't be right if the subsidy was withdrawn from GCB's Helston-Lizard service on the basis of what First have registered (as currently shown on Traveline). Their L1 is almost all a daytime only service. On schooldays the first bus leaves Lizard at 8.55, the next at 11.15, hourly for most of the day then a gap between 16.05 and 19.11. From Helston the first bus is at 10.29, hourly to 14.29 then a late one at 18.29. One more each way in school holidays. Almost none to Ruan Minor, none of the school journeys. Works maybe for a few day trippers to Lizard but not much else. It then goes on to Truro but the first arrival is at 10.27, the last departure 14.40 then one at 17.40. It's just something to keep buses running between school trips and a spoiler to stop it working for GCB - to describe it as an "hourly" service is a bit misleading. I think the A5 is a bit of the same, no morning peak hour workings, fewer route variations. I think First have done great things in Cornwall and the current L1 timetable looks pretty sensible - yes fill it in to be hourly with subsidy but here First seem to be saying to the council and GCB "if we can't have it then we're going to wreck it for you".

couldn't agree more with everything you've said there. Looking at the timetable that First have registered it looks like it fits around Truro College duties as Helston has 3 college buses (230,234 & 235 to Truro) which do nothing during the daytime. There are 4 ELC Trident's painted in the Lizard livery as well as 3 Solo SR's which are only 12 months old.

 

[Lizard1324]

I don't know how the rules work but IMHO it wouldn't be right if the subsidy was withdrawn from GCB's Helston-Lizard service on the basis of what First have registered (as currently shown on Traveline). Their L1 is almost all a daytime only service. On schooldays the first bus leaves Lizard at 8.55, the next at 11.15, hourly for most of the day then a gap between 16.05 and 19.11. From Helston the first bus is at 10.29, hourly to 14.29 then a late one at 18.29. One more each way in school holidays. Almost none to Ruan Minor, none of the school journeys. Works maybe for a few day trippers to Lizard but not much else. It then goes on to Truro but the first arrival is at 10.27, the last departure 14.40 then one at 17.40. It's just something to keep buses running between school trips and a spoiler to stop it working for GCB - to describe it as an "hourly" service is a bit misleading. I think the A5 is a bit of the same, no morning peak hour workings, fewer route variations. I think First have done great things in Cornwall and the current L1 timetable looks pretty sensible - yes fill it in to be hourly with subsidy but here First seem to be saying to the council and GCB "if we can't have it then we're going to wreck it for you".

There are earlier l1 technically from the lizard as the 251 (lizard - penwith college) leaves the lizard at 7:15 and the 230 ( lizard- truro college) leaves the same time and it follows the new l1 route but under a college name and same goes for the 6pm return so they do have buses from 7am- 7pm
I suppose the 230 bus will be used on the l1 route after it has been used for the college run and then return to truro college for students

 

[richw]

CC has spent a fortune increasing the Lizard tendered service which requires a significant increase in pvr

The Kernow L1 is built off the Truro College pvr and one of their new school contracts so uses no pvr.

First won all but two of the many Helston and mullion school contracts

 

[Lizard1324]

CC has spent a fortune increasing the Lizard tendered service which requires a significant increase in pvr

The Kernow L1 is built off the Truro College pvr and one of their new school contracts so uses no pvr.

First won all but two of the many Helston and mullion school contracts

Do you have a list of the contracts they won?

 

[embers25]

But people in the Lizard are loving that they now have a choice between Kernow and GCB and many other people will too in lots of places, if one raises their prices or reduce the service they can go to the other, or just pick the most convenient, currently they are stuck with Kernow, if the service goes down or prices go up, they can't do anything

I'd agree with you if it worked that way in reality but it doesnt I'm afraid. What has happened everywhere else this situation has arisen is after a few months of arguing and reorganising the council cancels the tendered journeys and you are back to where you were before as the commercial operator also reduce back to more sustainable levels again.

If the council services stay then first will withdraw eventually and so more subsidy is required for less service so again no win win. Also if first completely withdrew, the next round of tenders would see less competition resulting in even more costs to the clueless council.
However you look at this the final fall out will not be an improvement and will result in the government funding having less and less effect.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's been stated in this thread that none of FK's single decks are going to be displaced as a result of the changes, but I'm struggling to work out how there's going to be a use for all of them.

There are 4 x E200MMC, 14 x Solo SRs, 4 x E200, 6 x Dart, 8 x mini slimline Solos and a variety of other ageing Solos.

Is there really going to be enough work left for all of them?

 

[richw]

It's been stated in this thread that none of FK's single decks are going to be displaced as a result of the changes, but I'm struggling to work out how there's going to be a use for all of them.

There are 4 x E200MMC, 14 x Solo SRs, 4 x E200, 6 x Dart, 8 x mini slimline Solos and a variety of other ageing Solos.

Is there really going to be enough work left for all of them?

my post from a few weeks ago (there’s also a clue to some more of 20:20 vision here).

Similarly, it’s an uninformed assumption
to make that this work is going to use up the displaced Solos or Darts.

A few may end up on contract or similar work (the FSW business model has a significant number of private contracts and other business than local bus), but most of the additional work being developed requires coaches and double deckers as it happens.

it’s safe to say That some singles are going!

 

[Goldfish62]

my post from a few weeks ago (there’s also a clue to some more of 20:20 vision here).



it’s safe to say That some singles are going!

Thanks. Hopefully a clear-out of Solos. Some will need to be kept for Mousehole of course, which given their reliability will probably need about four spares.

 

[richw]

Thanks. Hopefully a clear-out of Solos. Some will need to be kept for Mousehole of course, which given their reliability will probably need about four spares.

optare have around a 12 month turn around from order to delivery on solos. I gather from briefings that at some point it’s planned to replace the mousehole fleet, albeit not immediately

 

[Goldfish62]

CC has spent a fortune increasing the Lizard tendered service which requires a significant increase in pvr

The Kernow L1 is built off the Truro College pvr and one of their new school contracts so uses no pvr.

First won all but two of the many Helston and mullion school contracts

It certainly explains how what required support is now considered commercial. If the revenue generated exceeds the marginal costs of staff and mileage for running the service then it's the right decision.

 

[RELL6L]

I'd agree with you if it worked that way in reality but it doesnt I'm afraid. What has happened everywhere else this situation has arisen is after a few months of arguing and reorganising the council cancels the tendered journeys and you are back to where you were before as the commercial operator also reduce back to more sustainable levels again.

If the council services stay then first will withdraw eventually and so more subsidy is required for less service so again no win win. Also if first completely withdrew, the next round of tenders would see less competition resulting in even more costs to the clueless council.
However you look at this the final fall out will not be an improvement and will result in the government funding having less and less effect.

So what is the endgame here? First Kernow run buses back from Truro College to provide an hourly inter-peak service on the Lizard. This will carry a lot of fresh air but undermines the GCB route at least in part as either GCB or the council (which is it?) are deprived of the fare revenue they would have got. So the council withdraws or reduces the tender between the peaks leaving GCB with buses and drivers spare between the peaks. Unlike FK, Go Cornwall have some potentially interesting routes they could choose to compete on! This could get very bloody!

 

[Nickincornwall]

So what is the endgame here? First Kernow run buses back from Truro College to provide an hourly inter-peak service on the Lizard. This will carry a lot of fresh air but undermines the GCB route at least in part as either GCB or the council (which is it?) are deprived of the fare revenue they would have got. So the council withdraws or reduces the tender between the peaks leaving GCB with buses and drivers spare between the peaks. Unlike FK, Go Cornwall have some potentially interesting routes they could choose to compete on! This could get very bloody!

I think that both First Kernow and Go Cornwall Bus are only at Stage One. FK will gradually introduce more up to May however I expect some seasonally based services to be withdrawn (possibly permanently) in September/October. GCB have a lot longer to act but again I am sure will develop the network. The key to this is local knowledge rather than statistics which tell you only what is happening now but does not tell you how to get people out of their cars or how to get back into areas abandonded previously. The GCB management do seem to listen to their drivers and find a reason to act, I will leave it to those who drive for FK to answer the facts there though I know what my feedback is.

In this case the only way forward is to listen to all the intel you have. To look back at the historical facts. To look at the developments taking place and about to take place, housing, airports etc. To be conscious of pricing. Look at what happens in other areas not only within your own group but outside as well.

The next year will be very interesting in effect it will be local knowledge driven business versus a business driven by management from outside the county, and this also is in effect a Group set of facts.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think that both First Kernow and Go Cornwall Bus are only at Stage One. FK will gradually introduce more up to May however I expect some seasonally based services to be withdrawn (possibly permanently) in September/October. GCB have a lot longer to act but again I am sure will develop the network. The key to this is local knowledge rather than statistics which tell you only what is happening now but does not tell you how to get people out of their cars or how to get back into areas abandonded previously. The GCB management do seem to listen to their drivers and find a reason to act, I will leave it to those who drive for FK to answer the facts there though I know what my feedback is.

In this case the only way forward is to listen to all the intel you have. To look back at the historical facts. To look at the developments taking place and about to take place, housing, airports etc. To be conscious of pricing. Look at what happens in other areas not only within your own group but outside as well.

The next year will be very interesting in effect it will be local knowledge driven business versus a business driven by management from outside the county, and this also is in effect a Group set of facts.

Well I hope the "local knowledge driven business" bucks up its ideas with publicity and information. Google "Go Cornwall Bus" and if you're lucky you might eventually realise what you're looking for comes under Plymouth Citybus. Go to that site and GCB is largely invisible. Google "Cornwall by Kernow" and the top result takes you straight to FK's section of the FirstBus website, containing all the info you need within the constraints of the mediocre corporate website.

 

[richw]

The GCB management do seem to listen to their drivers

Friends who drive for citybus are always complaining how they aren’t listened to!
From those friends there was also mention of overtime bans and potential further industrial action surrounding the current recruitment, in particular the hourly rates being offered. I have no reason to discredit 4 different friends all moaning the same thing!
There known poor reputation for how staff are treated is part of the reason very few staff are jumping from either First or stagecoach and they are resorting to up country recruitment agencies offering free accommodation! Less than 10 have jumped from First Kernow and 3 from stagecoach In Plymouth, despite GCB offering the highest rate of pay of the three. That speaks volumes when rose tinted citybus glasses are removed!

I will leave it to those who drive for FK to answer the facts there though I know what my feedback is.

Alex and Marc can often be found in the canteens chatting with staff and listening and when a reasonable suggestion is made they are put into practice. They may not live locally but they stay in the area during the week. It’s quite clear from the huge improved performance that maybe those outside eyes were what was needed to go from worst performing Opco to top 3.
You’ve made reference to bringing back lost routes most were operated by Western Greyhound, I’m sure you are aware WG went bust, numerous unviable routes contributed to this failing so why would anyone else with half a business sense what to take on a proven failure of a route? Only Cornwall council are that foolish!
Your comments surround First May well have been valid in the past regimes but certainly not under the current one.

 

[Goldfish62]

Friends who drive for citybus are always complaining how they aren’t listened to!
From those friends there was also mention of overtime bans and potential further industrial action surrounding the current recruitment, in particular the hourly rates being offered. I have no reason to discredit 4 different friends all moaning the same thing!
There known poor reputation for how staff are treated is part of the reason very few staff are jumping from either First or stagecoach and they are resorting to up country recruitment agencies offering free accommodation! Less than 10 have jumped from First Kernow and 3 from stagecoach In Plymouth, despite GCB offering the highest rate of pay of the three. That speaks volumes when rose tinted citybus glasses are removed!



Alex and Marc can often be found in the canteens chatting with staff and listening and when a reasonable suggestion is made they are put into practice. They may not live locally but they stay in the area during the week. It’s quite clear from the huge improved performance that maybe those outside eyes were what was needed to go from worst performing Opco to top 3.
You’ve made reference to bringing back lost routes most were operated by Western Greyhound, I’m sure you are aware WG went bust, numerous unviable routes contributed to this failing so why would anyone else with half a business sense what to take on a proven failure of a route? Only Cornwall council are that foolish!
Your comments surround First May well have been valid in the past regimes but certainly not under the current one.

I agree. Reading Nickincornwall's posts you'd be forgiven for thinking you've travelled back in time to the bad old days of FDC.

 

[richw]

Well I hope the "local knowledge driven business" bucks up its ideas with publicity and information. Google "Go Cornwall Bus" and if you're lucky you might eventually realise what you're looking for comes under Plymouth Citybus. Go to that site and GCB is largely invisible. Google "Cornwall by Kernow" and the top result takes you straight to FK's section of the FirstBus website, containing all the info you need within the constraints of the mediocre corporate website.

considering that Go Cornwall has been the brand of east Cornwall for 5-6 years at least you’d think they’d have some kind of internet presence.

A Facebook search returns a few random posts containing the Go Cornwall tag but no official Facebook page, despite Go Cornwall having operated in east Cornwall for 5-6 years (since the December before WG failed).
A Cornwall by Kernow search brings back the official company page (full of live service updates such as delays, breakdowns), the behind scenes enthusiast page run by senior management, and an unofficial enthusiast page.
Plymouth citybus Facebook contains no live service updates, merely plugging random events in the area and an upcoming timetable change (they change these nearly as often as I have hot dinners)

 

[richw]

But ask yourself this Richard, given that the Western Greyhound drivers were a decent lot I know that, most recruited by First are no longer at First.

Summercourt depot is an even split of ex western greyhound drivers and new recruits from the last 5 years. There is easily 50 or more ex WG drivers at summercourt and Eden depot, meanwhile at citybus to the best of my knowledge 2 former greyhound drivers remain at liskeard from the full set that were Tuped. Several walked out in the first week after GA took over!
I’m not sure your source but it is certainly misinformed to suggest anything differently!

 

[richw]

The information is that gcb is driver covered at this point

Explain this ad on Friday from an agency up north then. Increased numbers required aka citybus have recruited even less than antipated.

the service went back to being profitable until a mark reddy came in as MD and replaced Mevagissey with St Dennis

Mark reddy is long gone. The 24 is a successful route again and always busy.

 

[Goldfish62]

Summercourt depot is an even split of ex western greyhound drivers and new recruits from the last 5 years. There is easily 50 or more ex WG drivers at summercourt and Eden depot, meanwhile at citybus to the best of my knowledge 2 former greyhound drivers remain at liskeard from the full set that were Tuped. Several walked out in the first week after GA took over!
I’m not sure your source but it is certainly misinformed to suggest anything differently!

One local FDC manager remarked to me at the time that he'd got back from WG drivers who he'd sacked...

 

[MB162435]

Friends who drive for citybus are always complaining how they aren’t listened to!
From those friends there was also mention of overtime bans and potential further industrial action surrounding the current recruitment, in particular the hourly rates being offered. I have no reason to discredit 4 different friends all moaning the same thing!
There known poor reputation for how staff are treated is part of the reason very few staff are jumping from either First or stagecoach and they are resorting to up country recruitment agencies offering free accommodation! Less than 10 have jumped from First Kernow and 3 from stagecoach In Plymouth, despite GCB offering the highest rate of pay of the three. That speaks volumes when rose tinted citybus glasses are removed!



Alex and Marc can often be found in the canteens chatting with staff and listening and when a reasonable suggestion is made they are put into practice. They may not live locally but they stay in the area during the week. It’s quite clear from the huge improved performance that maybe those outside eyes were what was needed to go from worst performing Opco to top 3.
You’ve made reference to bringing back lost routes most were operated by Western Greyhound, I’m sure you are aware WG went bust, numerous unviable routes contributed to this failing so why would anyone else with half a business sense what to take on a proven failure of a route? Only Cornwall council are that foolish!
Your comments surround First May well have been valid in the past regimes but certainly not under the current one.

Noticed recently quite a few trainee drivers on U1/U2s, don't know if some of the existing Falmouth drivers have jumped, some are retiring or Kernow themselves already had a driver shortage?

Did Stagecoach drivers get many benefits, First obviously have the bus and train networks to give staff on both fronts discount but now that Stagecoach don't have any rail franchises, do they just have discounts in health care and stuff like that?

 

[Summers510]

Noticed recently quite a few trainee drivers on U1/U2s, don't know if some of the existing Falmouth drivers have jumped, some are retiring or Kernow themselves already had a driver shortage?

Did Stagecoach drivers get many benefits, First obviously have the bus and train networks to give staff on both fronts discount but now that Stagecoach don't have any rail franchises, do they just have discounts in health care and stuff like that?

Did notice that OTS, who are doing the local Falmouth routes now, are offering the £11 p/h, plus a extra weeks holiday for drivers living in Falmouth, might have something to do with it.

 

[richw]

Noticed recently quite a few trainee drivers on U1/U2s, don't know if some of the existing Falmouth drivers have jumped, some are retiring or Kernow themselves already had a driver shortage?

Did Stagecoach drivers get many benefits, First obviously have the bus and train networks to give staff on both fronts discount but now that Stagecoach don't have any rail franchises, do they just have discounts in health care and stuff like that?

New recruits. We also have some at Summercourt. No issue with recruitment despite offering a lower rate of pay!

can’t speak for stagecoach employees discounts and benefits although a friend at Torquay seems to be travelling somewhere different every weekend so must be something to make that viable . At half term I took my eldest daughter and partners eldest to London for a day trip for £12 for all of us. Otherwise would have been circa £450! That Benefit is worth a good amount alone!

 

[TechDan2002]

From Cornwall by KERNOW behind the scenes on Facebook:

The tsunami of Gemini’s is starting. We’re about to collect

32636
32637
32638
37012
37013
32687

 

[richw]

Did notice that OTS, who are doing the local Falmouth routes now, are offering the £11 p/h, plus a extra weeks holiday for drivers living in Falmouth, might have something to do with it.

OTS announced 6 brand new Mercedes sprinter based buses (possibly strata body) on Facebook in the last day or two

 

[MB162435]

Did notice that OTS, who are doing the local Falmouth routes now, are offering the £11 p/h, plus a extra weeks holiday for drivers living in Falmouth, might have something to do with it.

Certainly might temp a few, especially those who don't use the train often

 

[MB162435]

New recruits. We also have some at Summercourt. No issue with recruitment despite offering a lower rate of pay!

can’t speak for stagecoach employees discounts and benefits although a friend at Torquay seems to be travelling somewhere different every weekend so must be something to make that viable . At half term I took my eldest daughter and partners eldest to London for a day trip for £12 for all of us. Otherwise would have been circa £450! That Benefit is worth a good amount alone!

Stagecoach must offer at least some good discounts somewhere

The train discounts for Kernow drivers and for GWR staff on Kernow you can't criticise at all, certainly far more than most employers offer. Until First lose the GWR franchise that is

 

[Goldfish62]

Did notice that OTS, who are doing the local Falmouth routes now, are offering the £11 p/h, plus a extra weeks holiday for drivers living in Falmouth, might have something to do with it.

I assume they have to offer the same as staff employed directly by GCB.

 

[Goldfish62]

Stagecoach must offer at least some good discounts somewhere

The train discounts for Kernow drivers and for GWR staff on Kernow you can't criticise at all, certainly far more than most employers offer. Until First lose the GWR franchise that is

I don't think anyone is betting against another direct award from April.