First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[SouthEastBuses]

They're with Cornwall not Somerset

Pretty sure you were talking about Buses of Somerset? And that 32549 & 32638 were both Somerset buses (and not Cornwall)?

 

[Accelerator59]

Pretty sure you were talking about Buses of Somerset? And that 32549 & 32638 were both Somerset buses (and not Cornwall)?

32549 and 32638 are Kernow buses.

32638 - WX05 UAH

Volvo B7TL Wright Eclipse Gemini

bustimes.org

 

[SouthEastBuses]

32549 and 32638 are Kernow buses.

32638 - WX05 UAH

Volvo B7TL Wright Eclipse Gemini

bustimes.org

Ahh, my bad then!

 

[Murray J]

I believe they're now withdrawn, replaced by both the old Excel E400s (LK08/SN58 reg) and the ex Arriva London E400s (LJ59 reg)

I'd say the jury's still out; 1 hasn't even been out of service for a month and the other for about 6 weeks. They're quite possibly withdrawn, but nothing official yet.

 

[vla50]

I'd say the jury's still out; 1 hasn't even been out of service for a month and the other for about 6 weeks. They're quite possibly withdrawn, but nothing official yet.

Really does make you think when these Geminis will actually be replaced.

The 4 B9TLs due in from Glasgow don’t seem to have moved yet after 4 have transferred to Sheffield, 4 to Bristol and 1 to Norwich. Perhaps the 2 B9s that seem to have been lying around in Portsmouth for absolutely ages would be good ones to transfer over to begin replacing the Geminis.

 

[Murray J]

Really does make you think when these Geminis will actually be replaced.

The 4 B9TLs due in from Glasgow don’t seem to have moved yet after 4 have transferred to Sheffield, 4 to Bristol and 1 to Norwich. Perhaps the 2 B9s that seem to have been lying around in Portsmouth for absolutely ages would be good ones to transfer over to begin replacing the Geminis.

Yeah, very strange the B9TLs haven't moved yet, issue is there's so many of them and not enough replacements available because everything else needs replacing, there's a reason they bought a ton of 2nd-hand stuff. Given the amount of new electric vehicles on order within the next 18 months I'd imagine replacement should arrive by the end of next year, York for example is receiving 44 EVs which'll cascade around 22 B9TLs elsewhere.

 

[Volvo142]

Yeah, very strange the B9TLs haven't moved yet, issue is there's so many of them and not enough replacements available because everything else needs replacing, there's a reason they bought a ton of 2nd-hand stuff. Given the amount of new electric vehicles on order within the next 18 months I'd imagine replacement should arrive by the end of next year, York for example is receiving 44 EVs which'll cascade around 22 B9TLs elsewhere.

Why will 44 incoming EV's only cascade 22 Volvos? Is there an increased PVR in York? Or is it so with recharge time?

#genuinelycurious

 

[vla50]

Yeah, very strange the B9TLs haven't moved yet, issue is there's so many of them and not enough replacements available because everything else needs replacing, there's a reason they bought a ton of 2nd-hand stuff. Given the amount of new electric vehicles on order within the next 18 months I'd imagine replacement should arrive by the end of next year, York for example is receiving 44 EVs which'll cascade around 22 B9TLs elsewhere.

Except how many of those 22 B9TLs would be suitable to transfer by the end of 2024? The 07/57 plated B9s would be going on 18 and the 58/09 would be almost 16.

Norwich is beginning its electrification at the beginning of next year though this will only release 21 B9s unless Cornwall receives a modern upgrade in the form of another 14 Pink and Orange Line Streetdecks

But again, if we look at Kernows fleet, over 53 07 reg and older Geminis need to be replaced due to their age. Not to mention Essex would also need another 29 to replace similarly aged Geminis (I’m aware another 7 are being replaced soon though)

Personally I believe sales stock is the answer to the problem

 

[dodecahedron67]

Why will 44 incoming EV's only cascade 22 Volvos? Is there an increased PVR in York? Or is it so with recharge time?

#genuinelycurious

Because there’s only 22 B9TL’s left in York…

(Obviously they’ll cascade the remaining B7RLEs, Streetlites and Streetdecks as well)

 

[Murray J]

Why will 44 incoming EV's only cascade 22 Volvos? Is there an increased PVR in York? Or is it so with recharge time?

#genuinelycurious

Not only, but I doubt the Streetdecks will arrive in Kernow.

Except how many of those 22 B9TLs would be suitable to transfer by the end of 2024? The 07/57 plated B9s would be going on 18 and the 58/09 would be almost 16.

Norwich is beginning its electrification at the beginning of next year though this will only release 21 B9s unless Cornwall receives a modern upgrade in the form of another 14 Pink and Orange Line Streetdecks

But again, if we look at Kernows fleet, over 53 07 reg and older Geminis need to be replaced due to their age. Not to mention Essex would also need another 29 to replace similarly aged Geminis (I’m aware another 7 are being replaced soon though)

Personally I believe sales stock is the answer to the problem

Agreed, it's probably a big reason why they've purchased ensign.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Really does make you think when these Geminis will actually be replaced.

The 4 B9TLs due in from Glasgow don’t seem to have moved yet after 4 have transferred to Sheffield, 4 to Bristol and 1 to Norwich. Perhaps the 2 B9s that seem to have been lying around in Portsmouth for absolutely ages would be good ones to transfer over to begin replacing the Geminis.

Except how many of those 22 B9TLs would be suitable to transfer by the end of 2024? The 07/57 plated B9s would be going on 18 and the 58/09 would be almost 16.

Norwich is beginning its electrification at the beginning of next year though this will only release 21 B9s unless Cornwall receives a modern upgrade in the form of another 14 Pink and Orange Line Streetdecks

But again, if we look at Kernows fleet, over 53 07 reg and older Geminis need to be replaced due to their age. Not to mention Essex would also need another 29 to replace similarly aged Geminis (I’m aware another 7 are being replaced soon though)

Personally I believe sales stock is the answer to the problem

What's the rush?

They have a cohort of older deckers but they're largely employed on college and schools services. It may be that some of the B7TLs are simply being left to run until June/July and then will come off fleet. In those areas with Bus Service Improvement Plans (BSIPs), such as in Bristol and the surrounding area, there have been PVR increases and so drafting in additional fleet was a necessity. Similarly, the BSIP for Somerset required Euro VI fleet so hence the securing of vehicles from within the group and externally.

Essex is clearly a priority given that their fleet is employed on front line duties but perhaps less pressing in Cornwall. Certainly, where there are major unit failures, then those B7TLs are likely not to turn a wheel again; very much as was seen when the Trident/Presidents were being culled.

First Bus clearly has a replacement programme in place, and the influx of new EVs will assist in displacing vehicles to replace the older Eclipses and B7TLs plus whatever sundries still persist. First South West is perhaps one area where the need is less pressing but I'm sure that they will be dealing with it.

ps whether they are B7TL or B9TL, they are both Geminis!

 

[Goldfish62]

Yesterday there were two Geminis out all day on The Mousehole, meaning that Mousehole Harbour only had a service once every 45 min (hourly in the peaks). Nothing to advise of this on social media as usual.

It's down to one Gemini today.

Update: now full Solo service again.

What's the rush?

They have a cohort of older deckers but they're largely employed on college and schools services.

Go to Penzance bus station at any time and chances are you'll find it full of early Geminis. They're still employed all day on the 17, T1/T2 and U4, all busy front-line services.

Having said that I agree with you about the likely replacement programme.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

On bustimes.org I've noticed that Buses of Somerset still have one B7TL in service: 32603 (SF54 TKC). Wonder how long until it will be withdrawn. Likewise for Dennis Trident ELC Myllennium 32767 (WJ55 CTE)

EDIT: 32603 withdrawn, but 32767 still in service!

Also, is it true that 37151 (YN06 URE) is now at Taunton, and if yes, I'm assuming it will run on the 21/21A and the 30?

 

[richw]

Yesterday there were two Geminis out all day on The Mousehole, meaning that Mousehole Harbour only had a service once every 45 min (hourly in the peaks). Nothing to advise of this on social media as usual.

Although nothing on social media a poster was placed at mousehole harbour stating all services had a big bus and should be caught at the coastguard hotel

 

[Goldfish62]

Although nothing on social media a poster was placed at mousehole harbour stating all services had a big bus and should be caught at the coastguard hotel

Yes, subsequently saw that. So at least half the job has been done.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Go to Penzance bus station at any time and chances are you'll find it full of early Geminis. They're still employed all day on the 17, T1/T2 and U4, all busy front-line services.

Having said that I agree with you about the likely replacement programme.

Hence the use of the phrase "largely employed" - the 17 and U4 are usually B7TLs whereas the T1/T2 should be mmcs though in practice, the odd board can be operated by near enough anything!

On bustimes.org I've noticed that Buses of Somerset still have one B7TL in service: 32603 (SF54 TKC). Wonder how long until it will be withdrawn. Likewise for Dennis Trident ELC Myllennium 32767 (WJ55 CTE)

EDIT: 32603 withdrawn, but 32767 still in service!

Also, is it true that 37151 (YN06 URE) is now at Taunton, and if yes, I'm assuming it will run on the 21/21A and the 30?

Those two old stagers were retained because of vehicle shortages

37151 was, I think, based at the Clyst St Mary outbase that comes under Taunton for college services. I doubt that you'll see it on any local bus services.

 

[Andyh82]

What's the rush?

They have a cohort of older deckers but they're largely employed on college and schools services. It may be that some of the B7TLs are simply being left to run until June/July and then will come off fleet. In those areas with Bus Service Improvement Plans (BSIPs), such as in Bristol and the surrounding area, there have been PVR increases and so drafting in additional fleet was a necessity. Similarly, the BSIP for Somerset required Euro VI fleet so hence the securing of vehicles from within the group and externally.

Essex is clearly a priority given that their fleet is employed on front line duties but perhaps less pressing in Cornwall. Certainly, where there are major unit failures, then those B7TLs are likely not to turn a wheel again; very much as was seen when the Trident/Presidents were being culled.

Yes I’m not entirely sure what the panic is, the Geminis still feel modern, it’s a far cry away from when they had Barbie livery presidents or VRs in front line service

 

[fgwrich]

Yes I’m not entirely sure what the panic is, the Geminis still feel modern, it’s a far cry away from when they had Barbie livery presidents or VRs in front line service

Absolutely. I’m just on my way back from a few days in Cornwall and Penzance bus station this week was still often full of some rather smartly turned out FK vehicles, including a mixture of Geminis of all different ages. The only minus point would say I had for the them were the variety of liveries they were in (anything from ranging from Lynx to Bicton College / Unique / Bristol / FK Green / FK Advertising and the obligatory ex Solent vehicles, still proudly proclaiming “Hello Southampton” for Starling Bank). With the exception of some of the Tinner E400s and the Mousehole Solo, they were certainly looking a lot smarter than the Go Cornwall vehicles which consistently had various patches of red painted duck tape or random panel replacements riveted on!

Speaking of the Tinner, Would anybody on here be happen to know why Tinner MMC passed me through Hayle on Monday evening around 11pm with S2 Gwithian on the screens, very much appearing as if it was still in service? Surely the Sunseeker doesn’t run that late and nothing was showing up on Bustimes either.

(Apologies for the rubbish photo, XC had just cancelled the last up service so a Go Cornwall T1 had to be used instead)

 

[richw]

Speaking of the Tinner, Would anybody on here be happen to know why Tinner MMC passed me through Hayle on Monday evening around 11pm with S2 Gwithian on the screens, very much appearing as if it was still in service? Surely the Sunseeker doesn’t run that late and nothing was showing up on Bustimes either.

There’s a 2200 or thereabouts sunseeker from st ives

 

[vla50]

What's the rush?

They have a cohort of older deckers but they're largely employed on college and schools services. It may be that some of the B7TLs are simply being left to run until June/July and then will come off fleet. In those areas with Bus Service Improvement Plans (BSIPs), such as in Bristol and the surrounding area, there have been PVR increases and so drafting in additional fleet was a necessity. Similarly, the BSIP for Somerset required Euro VI fleet so hence the securing of vehicles from within the group and externally.

Essex is clearly a priority given that their fleet is employed on front line duties but perhaps less pressing in Cornwall. Certainly, where there are major unit failures, then those B7TLs are likely not to turn a wheel again; very much as was seen when the Trident/Presidents were being culled.

First Bus clearly has a replacement programme in place, and the influx of new EVs will assist in displacing vehicles to replace the older Eclipses and B7TLs plus whatever sundries still persist. First South West is perhaps one area where the need is less pressing but I'm sure that they will be dealing with it.

ps whether they are B7TL or B9TL, they are both Geminis!

Perhaps this problem would just be mitigated if slightly newer stuff was put into Cornwall. I doubt Somerset will need to replace their E400 fleet for a good few years now because they brought in 13 year old E400s at the beginning of last year whilst joined by some newer 10 year old examples at the latter end of last year and early this year with still a few more expected.

It might seem slightly strange transferring new stock into Cornwall, but the advantage is that at least you can leave it for a long time and not have to replace it. The 53/54 plated Geminis only lasted about 2 years before a replacement programme was beginning to be put into place although only 12 B9s have made it into service (although some of them were brought in to replace remaining Tridents and new school contracts).

Essex seems to have never ending new stock being drafted in but yet they are still some way off from even disposing of everything Euro 3.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes I’m not entirely sure what the panic is, the Geminis still feel modern, it’s a far cry away from when they had Barbie livery presidents or VRs in front line service

Some of the Geminis are at least as old as the Presidents when they were withdrawn. They do feel quite old and lumbering now, especially when their cooling fans are stuck on, but hopefully they will be replaced soon enough.

One of the problems, as has been discussed here before, is that First doesn't have enough mid-life stuff to be able to cascade to all OpCos that could do with it.

The B9TLs are certainly feel a significant upgrade from the B9TL Geminis, but even they won't be around for more than a few years, by which time the E400 MMCs will be well into middle age.

Apart from the imminent Sprinters I can't see Cornwall (or anywhere FSW) getting further new buses for the foreseeable future.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Perhaps this problem would just be mitigated if slightly newer stuff was put into Cornwall. I doubt Somerset will need to replace their E400 fleet for a good few years now because they brought in 13 year old E400s at the beginning of last year whilst joined by some newer 10 year old examples at the latter end of last year and early this year with still a few more expected.

It might seem slightly strange transferring new stock into Cornwall, but the advantage is that at least you can leave it for a long time and not have to replace it. The 53/54 plated Geminis only lasted about 2 years before a replacement programme was beginning to be put into place although only 12 B9s have made it into service (although some of them were brought in to replace remaining Tridents and new school contracts).

Essex seems to have never ending new stock being drafted in but yet they are still some way off from even disposing of everything Euro 3.

Kernow is a business that has it's own unique challenges. You've got a handful of good services - primarily the Tinners, Falmouth to Truro/Redruth, and Mousehole. The other routes are not as strong and to be honest, the management team did really well in creating the business case for the 2018 MMCs.

Much of the rest of the operation is either seasonal (with the open toppers at the fore) or built around schools and college workings; seem to recall reading that the FK model had a disproportionate number of vehicles employed for 36 or 38 weeks a year. Newer vehicles probably just wouldn't make financial sense - sat on the balance sheet with lots of depreciation to find? Instead, some 15-17 year old B9s are much more palatable.

Essex may have a never ending amount of new stock arriving but that's because it was in a much worse state than any other OpCo - 2 years ago, they still had >20 Tridents, >50 euro III B7RLEs, >20 Darts, and c.50 B7TLs so a lot of tat and virtually all of it in all day service. First South West was/is in a much better state.

Some of the Geminis are at least as old as the Presidents when they were withdrawn. They do feel quite old and lumbering now, especially when their cooling fans are stuck on, but hopefully they will be replaced soon enough.

One of the problems, as has been discussed here before, is that First doesn't have enough mid-life stuff to be able to cascade to all OpCos that could do with it.

The B9TLs are certainly feel a significant upgrade from the B9TL Geminis, but even they won't be around for more than a few years, by which time the E400 MMCs will be well into middle age.

Apart from the imminent Sprinters I can't see Cornwall (or anywhere FSW) getting further new buses for the foreseeable future.

The mid life issue is perhaps being slightly addressed by the repurchase of a number of their former London vehicles! More seriously, the B9s will doubtless filter in. As was mentioned earlier, it's still a better position to be in than in the past when stuff like ex Yorkshire Rider and PMT ECW Olympians were arriving and they were already 19/20 years old and still had another 5 years service ahead of them!

I'm with you that I struggle to see where the next new vehicles will arrive for First South West.


As an aside, I thought the Taunton Park and Ride was to receive more modern fleet - seem to recall that cascaded Solos were mentioned but seems to have gone quiet.

 

[Stan Drews]

There’s a 2200 or thereabouts sunseeker from st ives

The last S2 for Gwithian is due at Hayle Viaduct at 2255.
It comes out ’dead’ from Camborne earlier in the evening to take up the 1929 journey from Gwithian, whilst the Open Top Sunseeker chariot returns to the depot, after its arrival in Gwithian at 1919.

 

[Goldfish62]

As an aside, I thought the Taunton Park and Ride was to receive more modern fleet - seem to recall that cascaded Solos were mentioned but seems to have gone quiet.

Yes, I assumed they were to be some of the Kernow Solo SRs.

The Tin Coaster / 19 have been 50% open top since Monday, with the other bus being the usual Tinner or Copper MMC.

 

[tjwpsv]

37791 is a further open topper to receive branding on its base livery.

Land’s End Coaster

First Kernow 37791 (LK59CXH) arrives at Land’s End working the Land’s End Coaster service to Penzance via St. Ives and Porthcurno. The vehicle was new as VN37791 to First London and subsequently renumbered as VW1770 with Metroline.

www.flickr.com

By my calculation, that leaves 33601 (? could this be for Falmouth, unless 32179 is staying); 37789, 37793 (Land's End Coaster); 37736, 37737,37747 (sunseeker) still to be done.

 

[Goldfish62]

With Marc Morgan Huws having left and First South now having a new Commercial Director from outside the industry I wonder if we'll see a new approach to branding and liveries at FSW.

Certainly things seem to be in a state of limbo at the moment. The last repaint was a few months ago (in the defunct Lizard livery) and there are quite a few unbranded repaints to be seen.

 

[richw]

The last repaint was a few months ago (in the defunct Lizard livery) and there are quite a few unbranded repaints to be seen.

Somerset E400s are currently cycling through the Bodmin paintshop (30+ to be done). 1 a week, so don’t expect to see many kernow vehicles painted imminently

 

[Goldfish62]

Somerset E400s are currently cycling through the Bodmin paintshop (30+ to be done). 1 a week, so don’t expect to see many kernow vehicles painted imminently

Thanks. I hadn't appreciated that Somerset buses also use Bodmin. Sounds unlikely on that basis that there'll be any further Kernow repaints this year, which would be a shame as the Tinner MMCs badly need a repaint. Perhaps paint facilities as used by the rest of the First South empire can be utilised.

 

[E-Rail]

Yeah no service to Swanage but an open top hourly X50 Weymouth to Wool Station and the X54 continuing to also operate but running direct between Winfrith and Wool. It then diverts via Monkey World en route to Poole replacing the former X52 mileage. I'd hazard a guess the X50 will be the home of the former Lands End Presidents.

 

[WibbleWobble]

Note the X54 will go Weymouth - Wool - Monkey World & Tank Museum - Wool - Poole

So any one journey will serve Wool Station twice.