First trip to Spain

[pnepaul]

In June, I will be staying in Valladolid for a few days, as I mentioned, my first-ever trip to Spain. I have a couple of questions that maybe some of you could answer.

1 How easy is it to travel from Madrid Airport to Valladolid? I am guessing I will have to make my way to Madrid by train or metro.

2 Once in Valladolid, I hope to visit a couple of cities nearby. Is better to book tickets in advance or just buy them on the day?

3 What is the best way of pre-booking tickets online? Are thetrainline.com any good?

Here's hoping for some good weather!

I look forward to your ideas.

 

[richw]

Im travelling to Spain this week, and I must say it’s one of the most difficult places to find information about public transport for advanced planning. Interested to see replies that come in this thread.

In contrast Hungary and Italy I found all the information very easily!

 

[30907]

Usual start point:
https://www.seat61.com/train-travel-in-spain.htm

Mark recommends raileurope.com but I imagine trainline.com us OK - unless you fancy trying the RENFE site in English (which IIRC keeps switching you back into Spanish, if that hasn't been corrected!).

From MAD the C-1 (Cercanias suburban line) to Chamartin thence the highspeed route looks a good bet, and a ticket on the latter should cover you from the airport (read up on Combinado Cercanias).

General advice:
1. the main RENFE site doesn't have Cercanias/Rodalies services in its planner
2. just about everything else requires a reservation, even on the day (which is usually fine).

 

[Watershed]

In June, I will be staying in Valladolid for a few days, as I mentioned, my first-ever trip to Spain. I have a couple of questions that maybe some of you could answer.

1 How easy is it to travel from Madrid Airport to Valladolid? I am guessing I will have to make my way to Madrid by train or metro.

2 Once in Valladolid, I hope to visit a couple of cities nearby. Is better to book tickets in advance or just buy them on the day?

3 What is the best way of pre-booking tickets online? Are thetrainline.com any good?

Here's hoping for some good weather!

I look forward to your ideas.

1) Fairly easy. You have two rail options to get from the Airport to the city centre - either take Madrid Metro line 8 from Terminals 1/2/3 or Terminal 4 to the Nuevos Ministerios (runs frequently and takes around 15 minutes) and then line 10 to Chamartín station (7 minutes). Or you can take the RENFE Cercanías (commuter train) line C1/C10 from Terminal 4 direct to Chamartín (15 minutes, but less frequent).

Then from Chamartín you take a RENFE train to Valladolid. There are around 30 daily AVE, Alvia and Avant services (all different brands/categories of high speed services) using the high speed line, each taking around an hour. There are also a couple of Media Distancia/MD (regional express) services via the classic line taking just under 3 hours. It's far from a clockface timetable, with trains very closely spaced at peak times but gaps of over 1.5 hours at off-peak times.

Unfortunately all AVE, Alvia and Avant services and most MD services are reservations compulsory, require you to produce ID and close for boarding 3-5 minutes prior to departure. You also need to have your luggage x-rayed - though similarly to the Eurostar, liquids etc. are all fine. It's all rather airline-style

2) It's cheaper to buy in advance, much as in the UK. With nearly all trains other than local stoppers being reservations compulsory, you also risk being unable to travel at all (or at least, at the time you want) if you leave it until the last minute.

3) Probably to use the god-awful RENFE site. As is the case here, Trainline has a fancy interface but adds on a fee. They also don't show you all the options, as RENFE don't share timetable data for all their trains into the central European timetabling system, MERITS. You can use the Cercanías Combinado scheme to use local Cercanías trains for a free journey on each end if you buy a ticket for an AVE or Avant train - you will be given a 5-digit code which you can use to print off a ticket at a machine, much like the ToD system here in the UK. This would allow you to travel from the airport to Chamartín for free, whereas you would have to pay €5 for a Metro ticket (naturally, there is an airport 'tax'!).

Unfortunately the RENFE site doesn't have any PDF timetables, and doesn't have a 'via' option. Due to the above-mentioned failure to fully share data with MERITS, you can't rely on what Google Maps etc. tells you in terms of services - it will be missing some services and show some spurious ones. The RENFE site does have a pure journey planner functionality (i.e. ignoring fares), but - since RENFE seems incapable of any sort of joined-up thinking - this doesn't include all their services. The northern Feve metre-gauge network has its own, separate planner, as do each of the regional Cercanías networks (there's a drop-down option to select the region at the top of the aforementioned link).

It's such a shame that a network with such good infrastructure following billions in investment (they have the longest high speed network in Europe!) is let down by the poor timetables and the frustrating user experience caused by mandatory reservations, security checks and poor website design.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Salamanca is a good day out from Valladolid, as is Ávila (on the classic main-line to Madrid). Segovia is another historic city, on the Madrid high-speed line, although the station is way out of the city-centre requiring a connecting bus. The metre-gauge line to Los Cotos ski resort is also worth a visit - this starts at Cercedilla on the classic Segovia - Madrid line. You can usually obtain tickets/reservations for MD (medium distance) services on the day for maximum flexibility / change of plans - all the main stations still have traditional ticket offices plus ticket machines. Madrid Chamartin ticket office can be spectacularly busy at times though!

 

[stuu]

One thing to bear in mind is that the frequencies of both high speed and regular long distance trains are often a lot lower than in the UK. This won't be an issue getting to Vallodolid, because that is served by several different routes, but something to be aware of when planning day trips. Also, use Google maps to plan journeys rather than the RENFE journey planner, as that never includes suburban services and except in a few places won't offer routes involving a change of train

 

[rvdborgt]

Unfortunately the RENFE site doesn't have any PDF timetables, and doesn't have a 'via' option. Due to the above-mentioned failure to fully share data with MERITS, you can't rely on what Google Maps etc. tells you in terms of services - it will be missing some services and show some spurious ones. The RENFE site does have a pure journey planner functionality (i.e. ignoring fares), but - since RENFE seems incapable of any sort of joined-up thinking - this doesn't include all their services.

Nor is it a real planner. It's a train database that will only show journeys with a change if RENFE explicitly allows the planner to show them. For long distance trains, I'd use the DB planner.

 

[pnepaul]

Thanks for your replies. I have Salamanca in mind, also, and maybe Leon and Burgos which don't seem too far away.

 

[dutchflyer]

To add a few minor points, mostly to excellent overview and to the very point by watershed:
1.METRo from Airpt serves both terminals but cost 5€ or more, just like LHR=airpt surcharge.
RENFE-Cerc, runs ev .30 mins only from T4 (not the cheap0 airls) and has the normal fares. NOT possible to book through ticket! BUT if you buy a ticket-and by then you can be sure enough about what long-dist tren to catch (delays in the air etc.) from the tiny counter there (restricted opening, brush up Spanish or use fone-translate) the ride on cerc is included for free. Use barcode to franchise the gates. Anyway, its a rather short ride so the discount on advance cannot be that big. There are however quite substantial differences in price also on the day by type of train. AVE is way expensive, Avant reasonable-do a dummy booking/overview to check. Also do note that RENFE at the mo seems utmost reluctant to publish timings-and thus allow even booking too long advance. People think its full, whereas its still 100% empty.
2.Look at map how lines run-if transfer is needed-avoid that as 1st timer in ES on RENFE. So I think Leon is out of the way from there. Rather think, if money is not much of an object, to follow the hi-speed line onward: Burgos, perhaps even Donostia or Bilbao (in Basque country along coast). Many of the spanish medium size cities tend to look quite much the same-as we would also say of many GB such cities.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I found Salamanca, Avila (both west of Madrid, from Chamartin) and Toledo (south, from Atocha) all fascinating and easy to reach by train.
Chamartin and Atocha stations are 7km apart and are linked by frequent Cercanias suburban services, some of which go to the Airport (T4).
Barajas airport has T1/2/3 on one side (where the low-cost airlines live) and the new T4 (Iberia) on the other.
There's a free transfer bus between the terminals, but it goes in a big loop round the airport on the motorway network and takes for ever.
You can also use the metro between the terminals and to reach the city centre, but not directly to the two main railway stations.

Salamanca (with Avila half way) has MD regional trains on a classic scenic route through the mountains.
Salamanca has beautiful sandstone architecture, smaller Avila has superbly-preserved city walls.
You can also reach both from Valladolid on a classic line via Medina del Campo.
Toledo has frequent Avant (high speed commuter) services from Atocha, and has a fantastic location high above the Tajo river.

I bought all my tickets online from the Renfe site.

 

[AdamWW]

Unfortunately all AVE, Alvia and Avant services and most MD services are reservations compulsory, require you to produce ID and close for boarding 3-5 minutes prior to departure.
You also need to have your luggage x-rayed - though similarly to the Eurostar, liquids etc. are all fine. It's all rather airline-style

Although just to be clear, it is nowhere near as strict as airline security (or even getting the ferry from Harwich). There's no metal detector, you don't have to take anything out of your pockets or take your coat off, you just bung your bags on a conveyor belt for a large X-ray machine and pick them up the other side. So long as there aren't too many people trying to do it at the same time it is very quick.

And in my (very limited) experience, this is only for standard gauge trains not MD or Intercity services.

That aside, they seem to have done what they can to make boarding long distance trains in Madrid feel like waiting in an airline departure lounge then joining a long queue at a gate to show your boarding pass (sorry, ticket).

While ID may be an official requirement, nobody asked me to show any. The fixed reservation/fixed seat system would probably make it reasonably obvious if more than one person was trying to use the same e-ticket. Unless maybe you took turns at going to the loo?

It's such a shame that a network with such good infrastructure following billions in investment (they have the longest high speed network in Europe!) is let down by the poor timetables and the frustrating user experience caused by mandatory reservations, security checks and poor website design.

Indeed. I find what they have done to their railway extremely odd. Though the large excess capacity on high speed lines means that it seems to be ideal for a full system of "airlines on rails" competing high speed railway companies.

I have been rather put off Spanish railways by the inflexible nature of ticketing (and hostilty to Interrail), but they do have a fascinating network with their mixture of gauges and types of high speed train, some very impressive urban transport systems, and some rather nice scenery.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And in my (very limited) experience, this is only for standard gauge trains not MD or Intercity services.

I've had checks at San Sebastian, Bilbao and Santiago de Compostela, on trains that eventually ran on the HSL to Madrid.
There is now, by the way, a standard gauge link between Chamartin and Atocha, so HSL services can run from one side of Madrid to the other without changing gauge.
There are no platforms on this line at Atocha however, so Chamartin has become the station for cross-Madrid journeys (eg Burgos-Madrid Chamartin-Alacant).

 

[fandroid]

The security checks are a result of the 2004 Madrid train bombings. 190 dead. Once set up it's, understandably, almost impossible to relax such checks.

 

[Watershed]

Although just to be clear, it is nowhere near as strict as airline security (or even getting the ferry from Harwich). There's no metal detector, you don't have to take anything out of your pockets or take your coat off, you just bung your bags on a conveyor belt for a large X-ray machine and pick them up the other side. So long as there aren't too many people trying to do it at the same time it is very quick.

Indeed, it's not nearly as bad as airport security. But it is a frustration and means you have to allow an extra 5-10 minutes just in case. When combined with the airline-style 'gate closing' nonsense, the end result is that short connections are infeasible - not that RENFE seems to understand that some people might actually need to change trains.

And in my (very limited) experience, this is only for standard gauge trains not MD or Intercity services.

It's not quite that simple! Alvia high speed trains are gauge-changing, thus allowing them to run on both the new standard-gauge HS network, as well as serve places that are on the old Iberian-gauge network. I believe that Alvia trains are subject to security checks regardless of station of departure. Whether MD trains are subject to security checks seems to depend on the station in question - at many of the larger stations they use the same platforms as Alvia trains, thus inherently requiring security checks, whilst at smaller, "open" stations en-route there is obviously no means of performing such checks.

That aside, they seem to have done what they can to make boarding long distance trains in Madrid feel like waiting in an airline departure lounge then joining a long queue at a gate to show your boarding pass (sorry, ticket).

Particularly disappointing given that the high speed nature of the services means that they offer a genuine 'commuter'/daytrip option in many cases - they're not just for long journeys.

While ID may be an official requirement, nobody asked me to show any. The fixed reservation/fixed seat system would probably make it reasonably obvious if more than one person was trying to use the same e-ticket. Unless maybe you took turns at going to the loo?

I had my ID checked before being allowed entry to the platform for every non-Cercanías service I've taken when visiting Spain. I think it's partly to prevent the resale of tickets; it arguably served a more nefarious purpose during the period where a vaccine passport was (IIRC) required to use anything other than Cercanías services.

Indeed. I find what they have done to their railway extremely odd. Though the large excess capacity on high speed lines means that it seems to be ideal for a full system of "airlines on rails" competing high speed railway companies.

Indeed on the busy Madrid-Barcelona corridor, there are now four operators: RENFE (21tpd) plus open access operators Iryo (15tpd; mostly owned by Trenitalia, with Frecciarossa 1000-like trains and interiors), Avlo (4tpd; subsidiary of RENFE) and Ouigo (5tpd; subsidiary of SNCF). Iberia also operates a frequent air shuttle service (13tpd), and Air Europa and Vueling each operate a couple of flights a day, making for an incredibly competitive market.

There is less competition on most other corridors, but it shows what the infrastructure would be capable of if properly utilised.

I have been rather put off Spanish railways by the inflexible nature of ticketing (and hostilty to Interrail), but they do have a fascinating network with their mixture of gauges and types of high speed train, some very impressive urban transport systems, and some rather nice scenery.

Same here.

 

[rvdborgt]

The security checks are a result of the 2004 Madrid train bombings. 190 dead. Once set up it's, understandably, almost impossible to relax such checks.

I'm not sure how the secutainment for some of the RENFE long distance services could have prevented the 2004 bombings against the Cercanías.

 

[Austriantrain]

I'm not sure how the secutainment for some of the RENFE long distance services could have prevented the 2004 bombings against the Cercanías.

IIRC, the security checks were first introduced in 1992 for the Madrid - Sevilla AVE, mainly due to fears of ETA bombings.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I have travelled on Iryo today. Very fast bar a stop in the middle of nowhere for an unexplained reason, very comfortable and the food was good.

 

[nwales58]

RENFE app worked fine for me on 2 visits in the last 12 months including accepting Tarjeta Dorada discount reliably at last. RENFE's mess of fare levels versus flexibility and add-ons for choosing a seat, XL seat with/without catering/dog etc are all available in their app, 3rd party web sites seem to restrict to simpler choices. Because most things are compulsory reservation it's good to be able to book or change a ticket whilst on the way to the station and see real time information (HS is generally on time, long distance MDs can get quite late).

For Valladolid another option is MD on the old route via Avila, takes 3h through the mountains instead of 1h on HS through the tunnel but the HS trains are more frequent. Goes from Principe Pio rather than Chamartin, C1/C10 from Barajas T4 go through both. On renfe.com click on Cercanias then Madrid. From the old terminal easier to use metro as the terminals are miles apart although the transfer bus is free and every 10 minutes or so.

Only AVE/Alvia tickets include Cercanias, if a gate has an scanner it usually works else see a human. If you have to buy a separate ticket, hold on to the Renfe&Tu card that adds 30c or so to the fare - it carries on accepting new tickets for about a week after last use.

Beware Friday and Sunday PM/evening to/from Madrid on the non-competition routes can be a wall of 'Tren Completo' or fares similar to GB open singles to London.