First West of England (Bristol, Bath & The West)

[freetoview33]

On the u5 and u6 discussion I do wonder if first will get some new deckers for the x39 in the future which will release b9s for the uni routes maybe it's just a idea but could happen

That is much more likely!

 

[Class 33]

The changes were published on 18th July by VOSA and at this point the council should already have known. I dont know where you get 5 weeks from.
Any operator can register it up to the 4th September as long as VOSA agrees the short notice which they'd discuss with Bristol CC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7E3SBWLYDI

But 18th July is still only about 7 weeks notice.

Anyway seems Bristol City Council is neither interested in the axing of the 51 nor supporting another operator taking it over!

As it stands at the mo, it's not looking good that the 51 will be saved by the axing date of Sunday 4th September.

I agree with what someone else said on here. The South Bristol bus network needs a complete overhaul and improvement. It was so much better and more comprehensive years ago!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

On the u5 and u6 discussion I do wonder if first will get some new deckers for the x39 in the future which will release b9s for the uni routes maybe it's just a idea but could happen

At the risk of sounding like a broken record....the requirements are looking like

Peak - 7/8 vehicles for 25 weeks a year
Reduced peak (spring) - reduced frequency for 12 weeks
Off peak - 2 vehicles for 15 weeks

So for half the year, you're likely to have a number of fully branded vehicles parked incurring depreciation. You might be lucky to be able to use them over the summer on something but you're going to have weeks of them stood incurring depreciation unless, of course, they're fully depreciated.

You might have a couple of decent ones for the year round work but the rest - it doesn't make sense.

I did expect new deckers for the X39 this year but I got that wrong in my predictions for 2016.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7E3SBWLYDI

I agree with what someone else said on here. The South Bristol bus network needs a complete overhaul and improvement. It was so much better and more comprehensive years ago!

The world moves on and what was appropriate years ago doesn't make money now. Sadly carrying a few snowies with free passes (and yes, I recognise that there is a genuine need for those people) isn't going to pay buses at the same level as now, even with a few fullish journeys at peak

 

[freetoview33]

Wessex has saved the 51! And will take over from First in September.

 

[Class 33]

A result! Wessex Connect will take over the 51! http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/saved-...-with-wessex/story-29636533-detail/story.html

 

[swifty]

Wessex has saved the 51! And will take over from First in September.

An own goal by First to allow Wessex onto the Wells Road at an every 15 min frequency, or will Wessex regret taking on 'a loss making service'? Which begs the question of whether their is any financial support from BCC?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Given Lochhead's desire to screw down costs, I can only assume he was on holiday when the decision to go ahead with ftr was taken, OR it was a monumental folly on his part to show his management style was not just about costs!! . Either way it was a big mistake, but other groups make big mistakes too (Stagecoach's purchase of MAN engined buses, Go Ahead's ill-fated West Midlands adventure etc. etc.)

ftrs would be best used where the second person and fare collection isn't required (eg on shortish Park and Rides like Eden Project), or maybe on university services where there are few/no farepayers. Trouble is there are not enough of these to utilise them all. Ultimately First has to make a financial decision; lay them up and take the depreciation, sell them for peanuts (big hit on profits in the year of sale) or find creative ways to use them and accept the high running costs.

Bristol's Metrobus???

Yes, businesses can make mistakes. Just that it was one of several that First made (e.g. buying a fleet of archaic vehicles (aka Cawlett) across SW England for £17m, buying Laidlaw, setting up Greyhound UK) - FTR was fundamentally bobbins.

I can only agree with your description of the options. The options are either simple routes with little or no fare structure where tickets can be pre-sold or stuff like Eden. Either way, I suspect that a financial hit will be endured and no-one likes taking that in one fell swoop.

Put bluntly, if they're prepared to have four Optare Excels in store for 4 years in Muller Road, they may have to do the same with the FTR. Even with the reduced number of stops on Metrobus, I still wonder about the ability to make them work.

 

[winston270twm]

An own goal by First to allow Wessex onto the Wells Road at an every 15 min frequency, or will Wessex regret taking on 'a loss making service'? Which begs the question of whether their is any financial support from BCC?

Don't forget Wessex's overheads will be lower than that of First.

Wessex are also bringing lower fares to the route and an improved frequency over the current offering

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

An own goal by First to allow Wessex onto the Wells Road at an every 15 min frequency, or will Wessex regret taking on 'a loss making service'? Which begs the question of whether their is any financial support from BCC?

I have to say I didn't expect Wessex to go in the full hog but there you go. The article suggests it be supported to an extent as:

"All morning they badgered Bristol city council, and its transport chief Mark Bradshaw, to get the deal signed off" - what deal?

"We have also promised that should Wessex hit the targets we have agreed with Bristol City Council, we will donate money to local community projects." - what targets if it's commercial?

We shall see what First do? This could be interesting!

ps Note the protesters photo - average age????

 

[Marc]

Which begs the question of whether their is any financial support from BCC?

yes:"Bristol City Council has identified some one-off funding to enhance the proposal for the new 51 bus route, which is being submitted by Wessex to the Traffic Commissioner. The one-off funding has been identified from a number of sources within the transport service, but no other bus services will face reduced support as a result."

interesting how first are willing to let wessex on to the wells road with funding from bcc but wont let south glos pay anyone else to do kingswood to keynsham via oldland.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

yes:"Bristol City Council has identified some one-off funding to enhance the proposal for the new 51 bus route, which is being submitted by Wessex to the Traffic Commissioner. The one-off funding has been identified from a number of sources within the transport service, but no other bus services will face reduced support as a result."

interesting how first are willing to let wessex on to the wells road with funding from bcc but wont let south glos pay anyone else to do kingswood to keynsham via oldland.

Thanks for posting and that extra info. You're right- that's interesting

32096 and 69458 in Avonmouth bodyshop. Wonder if 32096 is next BSU refurb? 69458 - start of Mendip refurbs or something more prosaic?

 

[swifty]

I have to say I didn't expect Wessex to go in the full hog but there you go.

Certainly is interesting, I had expected Abus to pick it up on a similar basis to the 52 to be honest. I guess Wessex are scrabbling for work at the moment so it'd be interesting to see the terms.
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interesting how first are willing to let wessex on to the wells road with funding from bcc but wont let south glos pay anyone else to do kingswood to keynsham via oldland.

To be honest I don't think First has much choice, if you leave the ball in BCC court and they find another provider than that's an own goal on Firsts part. However with the 17A SGC have gone back to First to work on a solution.

 

[vicbury]

Four ALX400s on the X39 and a B9 on the 14 tonight

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Four ALX400s on the X39 and a B9 on the 14 tonight

66719 was on 73 last night whilst 66934 was operating NIS just past the old Winterstoke Road depot site this evening.

 

[THarris123]

Certainly is interesting, I had expected Abus to pick it up on a similar basis to the 52 to be honest. I guess Wessex are scrabbling for work at the moment it'd be interesting to see the terms.
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To be honest I don't think First has much choice, if you leave the ball in BCC court and they find another provider than that's an own goal on Firsts part. However with the 17A SGC have gone back to First to work on a solution.

What do people think of the idea of having 19 rerouted to Keynsham every hour and have that serve Chandag and Park Estate, then have 37 running via Kelston again? Then have 17 hourly and 17A hourly Kingswood to Southmead?
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51 - maybe we'll see the return of 55 from First? Maybe they'll have 376 limited stop from Broadwalk to Centre and then 55 every 10 mins. That'll mean a service every 5 mins from Broadwalk to Centre and surely kick Wessex out. Only problem with that is they'll have to add in another 6 buses, of which they probably won't have drivers for.

 

[freetoview33]

What do people think of the idea of having 19 rerouted to Keynsham every hour and have that serve Chandag and Park Estate, then have 37 running via Kelston again? Then have 17 hourly and 17A hourly Kingswood to Southmead?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
51 - maybe we'll see the return of 55 from First? Maybe they'll have 376 limited stop from Broadwalk to Centre and then 55 every 10 mins. That'll mean a service every 5 mins from Broadwalk to Centre and surely kick Wessex out. Only problem with that is they'll have to add in another 6 buses, of which they probably won't have drivers for.

Maybe drop the 1 and 2 to every 12 mins. Then bring back the 55 every 30 mins, Southmead - Stockwood. That would work! Then Maybe 30 min 55A Broadmead - Stockwood.

 

[swifty]

What do people think of the idea of having 19 rerouted to Keynsham every hour and have that serve Chandag and Park Estate, then have 37 running via Kelston again? Then have 17 hourly and 17A hourly Kingswood to Southmead?

What ever happens with the Kingswood to Keynsham via Oldland section if operated by First it'll be lumped onto an existing service for operational ease. Diverting the 19 via Keynsham would surely have a knock on effect to the scheduling of the core route?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe drop the 1 and 2 to every 12 mins. Then bring back the 55 every 30 mins, Southmead - Stockwood. That would work! Then Maybe 30 min 55A Broadmead - Stockwood.

If you're going to do that, just to counter Wessex on the Wells Road, you may as well operate the 51 commercially again?

 

[Private Baxter]

I know it is a few weeks away but does anyone know what operators are supplying vehicles for rail replacement services during the Severn Tunnel closure?

I'm sure SGBC will play a big part, as well as usual suspects from coach companies from near and far. These will provide cover on routes out of Bristol Parkway to Swindon, Newport and Gloucester.
I imagine that the drop in pvr in FB and FSA will contribute a few buses for stopping services to Bristol Temple Meads and Gloucester, as well as Severn Beach branch.

Thanks for posting and that extra info. You're right- that's interesting

32096 and 69458 in Avonmouth bodyshop. Wonder if 32096 is next BSU refurb? 69458 - start of Mendip refurbs or something more prosaic?

Ooh good! Hope the latter will be the first of the Mendip Explorer ones for Wells.

 

[THarris123]

Maybe drop the 1 and 2 to every 12 mins. Then bring back the 55 every 30 mins, Southmead - Stockwood. That would work! Then Maybe 30 min 55A Broadmead - Stockwood.

Well the point I'm trying to make is that in order to combat Wessex on 51 and keep the demand on Broadwalk-Centre section, have a 5 minute service on that section. There's currently 11 buses on every hour. There will be 12 in Sept. If you do it my way, you have a service going on all stops every 5 mins (12 per hour) and 376 operating from Broadwalk to Centre without stopping.

 

[Class 33]

Great news that the 51 is saved and Wessex Connect will take it over the day after the last day of First operating it. Well done in particular to the spear-headers of the campaign Tim Kent and Gary Hopkins, Wessex Connect, anyone else involved, and everyone who signed the petition.

My gut feeling was that Wessex would take over the service, and at the same or even better frequency than First's 51. And I'm glad my gut feeling has come true!

First axed the service. Though they changed the route of the new 50 to incorporate some parts of the 51 route, to accommodate to some extent the loss of the 51. For people travelling between Wells Road, Broad Walk Shopping Centre and Hengrove and Whitchurch, First just expected people to make do with either getting two buses(which can add considerably to the journey time) or getting the 50 and walking the extra distance. First did not expect another operator to take over the service just the day after their last day of operating it. First probably might not like it that Wessex Connect are taking over the 51 and operating a service via Wells Road, but that's just too bad. They axed the popular service. A lot of people weren't happy about it atall. A successful campaign was started, and Wessex Connect will be taking it over!

Unfortunately though on the Save 51 Bus Facebook page, despite this great news, some people moaning that they won't be able to use their First weekly and monthly passes on the new 51.

With the route of the new 50 changed a little in the Hengrove and Rookery Farm areas, to include parts of the 51 route though. What parts(if any) of the current 50 route will the new 50 not be serving? I'm not overly familiar with the Hengrove area myself. Have got the 50 and 51 a handful of times before, but as they twist and turn their way through Hengrove and Rookery Farm I've had no idea where exactly I was!

 

[baza585]

First axed the service. Though they changed the route of the new 50 to incorporate some parts of the 51 route, to accommodate to some extent the loss of the 51. For people travelling between Wells Road, Broad Walk Shopping Centre and Hengrove and Whitchurch, First just expected people to make do with either getting two buses(which can add considerably to the journey time) or getting the 50 and walking the extra distance. First did not expect another operator to take over the service just the day after their last day of operating it. First probably might not like it that Wessex Connect are taking over the 51 and operating a service via Wells Road, but that's just too bad. They axed the popular service. A lot of people weren't happy about it atall. A successful campaign was started, and Wessex Connect will be taking it over!

Unfortunately though on the Save 51 Bus Facebook page, despite this great news, some people moaning that they won't be able to use their First weekly and monthly passes on the new 51.

With the route of the new 50 changed a little in the Hengrove and Rookery Farm areas, to include parts of the 51 route though. What parts(if any) of the current 50 route will the new 50 not be serving? I'm not overly familiar with the Hengrove area myself. Have got the 50 and 51 a handful of times before, but as they twist and turn their way through Hengrove and Rookery Farm I've had no idea where exactly I was!

If the service was popular, folk would have used it and First wouldn't have axed it!

I suspect we will never know the full story. Did First ask BCC for support for the 51? If they did, were they refused? If so, if I was JF, I would be well hacked off! If they didn't ask for subsidy, should they have done?

At the end of the day, First have all the facts and out of all the routes in Brizzle, they decided to cut this one. Probably because it doesn't make enough/any money. We'll see how long Wessex last on a 15 minute frequency.

My biggest concern is that the council may have stumped up the subsidy money because there was an outcry amongst the Twitterati rather than based on facts. Mob rule and he/she that shouts loudest is no way to formulate policy. Glad I don't pay council tax in Bristol (though my local council are no more competent TBH.............)

 

[matt_splat]

My money is on first bringing in a 19a service simular to the idea that currently is on the citistar Facebook page I don't think it will be a service that is ran into bath I think it will be a separate service

 

[THarris123]

Great news that the 51 is saved and Wessex Connect will take it over the day after the last day of First operating it. Well done in particular to the spear-headers of the campaign Tim Kent and Gary Hopkins, Wessex Connect, anyone else involved, and everyone who signed the petition.

My gut feeling was that Wessex would take over the service, and at the same or even better frequency than First's 51. And I'm glad my gut feeling has come true!

First axed the service. Though they changed the route of the new 50 to incorporate some parts of the 51 route, to accommodate to some extent the loss of the 51. For people travelling between Wells Road, Broad Walk Shopping Centre and Hengrove and Whitchurch, First just expected people to make do with either getting two buses(which can add considerably to the journey time) or getting the 50 and walking the extra distance. First did not expect another operator to take over the service just the day after their last day of operating it. First probably might not like it that Wessex Connect are taking over the 51 and operating a service via Wells Road, but that's just too bad. They axed the popular service. A lot of people weren't happy about it atall. A successful campaign was started, and Wessex Connect will be taking it over!

Unfortunately though on the Save 51 Bus Facebook page, despite this great news, some people moaning that they won't be able to use their First weekly and monthly passes on the new 51.

With the route of the new 50 changed a little in the Hengrove and Rookery Farm areas, to include parts of the 51 route though. What parts(if any) of the current 50 route will the new 50 not be serving? I'm not overly familiar with the Hengrove area myself. Have got the 50 and 51 a handful of times before, but as they twist and turn their way through Hengrove and Rookery Farm I've had no idea where exactly I was!

Nothing but praise for Wessex. Aren't they lovely.

Wessex aren't "taking over" 51 - they are running it on behalf of Bristol CC, who are funding it.

I personally believe from my viewings of 51 it could be commercial on a 30 min frequency with evenings and Sunday's council funded. They are likely to use singles, hence the 15 min frequency - expect them to be jam packed after a while from centre to Broadwalk, which won't be very comfortable. After Broadwalk it gets less passengers.

First didn't make the right decision - dropping the frequency would've been much more sensible. First had to chop out a few buses as there just isn't the drivers. I fully expect a network revamp when Metrobus kicks in, which I suspect will ensure Wessex are confined to the history books (or almost - maybe One/2 will be left).

I'm sure as soon as First get enough drivers and the money, something else will be created on Wells Road.

And to go and say First didn't expect another operator to come in - of course they did - they know damn well if they cut a service like that or reduce frequencies, there's always a risk of another operator to turn up. The most likely out of all those would be Wessex, as they've lost so much work in Sept, unlike the smaller operators.

 

[swifty]

My money is on first bringing in a 19a service simular to the idea that currently is on the citistar Facebook page I don't think it will be a service that is ran into bath I think it will be a separate service

Ah now that now routing could be tacked onto the end of the 16 service to keep a Keynsham - Kingswood service.

 

[freetoview33]

Ah now that now routing could be tacked onto the end of the 16 service to keep a Keynsham - Kingswood service.

That would be better than 17A or 19A

 

[swifty]

That would be better than 17A or 19A

Parkway to Hanham as the 16 will be, then as 44 to Park Estate (but via B&Q/M&S as the 17 does) then follow the 17A route from Park Estate to Keynsham in essence. Maybe that would be too much duplication over 44 roads?

 

[carlberry]

51 - maybe we'll see the return of 55 from First? Maybe they'll have 376 limited stop from Broadwalk to Centre and then 55 every 10 mins. That'll mean a service every 5 mins from Broadwalk to Centre and surely kick Wessex out. Only problem with that is they'll have to add in another 6 buses, of which they probably won't have drivers for.

Why will First do anything? They've withdrawn a route that wasnt making money. Theres been a fuss about it and they havent made any 'OK, we'll give it another few months if you use it' type concessions. Theres the issue of if theres a subsidy and if the subsidy only applies to the newly unservered bit and the short notice application that'll now be for a frequent route more than half of which is competitive.

After all the fuss dies down however Wessex will have a service that's more frequent than one that First didnt make any money on. Wessex's record with it's ventures on the Gloucester Road and Whilteladies Road so far suggest that First wont be losing much sleep about it!

 

[THarris123]

Why will First do anything? They've withdrawn a route that wasnt making money. Theres been a fuss about it and they havent made any 'OK, we'll give it another few months if you use it' type concessions. Theres the issue of if theres a subsidy and if the subsidy only applies to the newly unservered bit and the short notice application that'll now be for a frequent route more than half of which is competitive.

After all the fuss dies down however Wessex will have a service that's more frequent than one that First didnt make any money on. Wessex's record with it's ventures on the Gloucester Road and Whilteladies Road so far suggest that First wont be losing much sleep about it!

The service is every 15 mins off peak, 30 mins at peak.

First made plenty of money on Wells Road, just not the rest of 51. I'm saying if they feel Wessex are taking passengers away from 376 and 2, then they'll put on an extra service on Wells Road. They can't do that for many reasons at the moment, most explained by Wazoo several times.

 

[carlberry]

I suspect we will never know the full story. Did First ask BCC for support for the 51? If they did, were they refused? If so, if I was JF, I would be well hacked off! If they didn't ask for subsidy, should they have done?

First cant ask BCC for support (other than under specific circumstances and only for very small amounts of money). And whatever Bristol CC have done to get the 51 back should be open to public record and should only cover a short time period if it hasnt been put out to tender properly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure SGBC will play a big part, as well as usual suspects from coach companies from near and far. These will provide cover on routes out of Bristol Parkway to Swindon, Newport and Gloucester.
I imagine that the drop in pvr in FB and FSA will contribute a few buses for stopping services to Bristol Temple Meads and Gloucester, as well as Severn Beach branch.

How much of the rail network is closing in September? I though it was only the Severn Tunnel?

 

[Class 33]

Maybe drop the 1 and 2 to every 12 mins. Then bring back the 55 every 30 mins, Southmead - Stockwood. That would work! Then Maybe 30 min 55A Broadmead - Stockwood.

Chances are First don't plan to introduce any more services running via Wells Road as a result of Wessex Connect taking over the 51.

Thing is if they brought back the old 55 service, with First's recent renumbering of services over the past few years, it would make more sense to number this service as a 3. Because it would be broadly similar to the 2 in that it runs from Stockwood down the Wells Road, through the Centre, up Whiteladies Road, The Down, and through Southmead. But of course they can't number it a 3 now, because they renumbered the 41 to a 3 only a year ago! Numbering this such service a 55 would be going against their recent strategy of renumbering services and grouping them together according to the similar routes and areas they serve! For instance the 1,2,3, & 4 all services running via Whiteladies Road towards Cribbs Causeway.

I also previously thought that within the next few years a new service 3 would be introduced anyway that would be similarly routed to the 1 and 2, but running from Southmead through Charlton Mead and the new estate on the former Filton Airfield. But they can't now due again to the 41 being renumbered 3 last year. For this reason I was very surprised when the 41 & 40 were renumbered 3 & 4 last year.

I suppose they could still number it the 55 though, even though it would be very broadly similar to the 2. After all years ago, for services running up Whiteladies Road during the same time period there was for instance the 1,2,20,21,22,23,24,25,85,87, & 88! (yes that amount of services!)

But if First introduced a new service via Wells Road, I don't think they'd make it a cross-city service running all the way to Southmead or Cribbs Causeway. They'd probably terminate it at Centre or Broadmead.

It would certainly be good and very beneficial if First introduced a new service running via the upper part of Wells Road though. And also made the 376 limited stop between Temple Meads and the upper part of Wells Road.

But getting ahead of ourselves here, and I don't think First will introduce any such services soon.