martyjon
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Thanks.
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First West of England (Bristol, Bath & The West)
- Thread starter Ivo
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RailUK Forums
Class 33
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You are correct. The timing of services up and down Gloucester Road now is a joke. It's been noticeably bad since the September changes. Seems to be often three services(usually 71, 73 & 75) come along together, then it's about a 10 minute gap till a 76, and then a gap of another 10 minutes till the 71, 73 & 75, and so on. And can be even worst when services are cancelled or delayed. I had a 17 minute wait for a bus from Haymarket to Zetland Road Junction on a weekday early afternoon a few weeks ago! It's dreadfully bad, it really is. And not sure even First are aware just how bad it is nowadays. I will email them to comment about it, the services need to be spaced out more. Several years ago I emailed them to comment about the timetabling of the 70 and 73 along Filton Avenue heading towards Centre as the timetabling in the evenings was ridiculous, as it was something like the 70 and xx:00 and xx:30 and the 73 at xx:02 and xx:32! And that they should be spaced out more. They did actually take notice of this and change the timetables of these services at the next service changes.
A quick look at the timetable suggests that it's intended to be about as good as you'd expect from 4 different services on different frequencies. As long as the drivers are departing on time (and this is rarely an issue now with tracking) First cant do anything else other than the usual of adding a few minutes into the timetable to slow it down with the subsequent complaints that, on days when some idiot hasn't left a car in a stupid place and the traffic is flowing, the driver has to keep stopping to keep back to time.
It wouldn't be a problem if the bus service was franchised of course!
martyjon
Member
Ah, I misunderstood the post re timings, thought the post was about point to point running times. When I was a kid the no 5 to Patchway Estate ran short journeys, to Zetland Road, Nevil Road, Muller Road Top, Filton Park, Filton Church in between the full run to Pathway Estate until the 5A was introduced and that's another tale.
Before the cut the 71 on evenings and sundays the 71/3 used to be about 2 mins apart. No wonder no one used the 71 as it was always just behind the 73!
Class 33
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The frequency of each individual service serving Gloucester Road is relatively OK. It's just across all those service together they're so poorly timetabled as a whole now. They need to be looked at and spaced out more, so there's not gaps of 10 minutes(or more) between services. It seems with the September changes they made some timetable changes to some of these services, but First didn't realise the problems this would cause with long 10 minute gaps between services, and three services being bunched up to run together! I will email about this to First, and hope things can be improved for the September changes.
A mention above about years ago(before my time!), the 5 as it was then running some shorter services to Filton Church as well as full services to Patchway Estate. Could do with a service like this running nowadays! Could also do with a half hourly service between Gloucester Road and Aztec West being re-introduced, as it's only every hour now with the T2. I know there's the 73 serving Aztec West, but that goes all over the darn place to get there!
Wonder IF or when we'll ever see a service 74 re-introduced.
A mention above about years ago(before my time!), the 5 as it was then running some shorter services to Filton Church as well as full services to Patchway Estate. Could do with a service like this running nowadays! Could also do with a half hourly service between Gloucester Road and Aztec West being re-introduced, as it's only every hour now with the T2. I know there's the 73 serving Aztec West, but that goes all over the darn place to get there!
Wonder IF or when we'll ever see a service 74 re-introduced.
Buses in Bath
Member
Did someone say the 73 was going to be green because I just saw a photo of one and its painted green
Where are these 10 minute gaps? The 75 and 76 are coordinated so they run every 7/8 minutes for most of the day.
Outside of the peaks Aztec West isn't going to generate a lot of demand and the peaks are covered by Stagecoach so hourly direct and every 20 minutes round the houses sounds OK
martyjon
Member
Twas I in post 25078 on this thread.
Buses in Bath
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martyjon
Member
Nice.
And 39491
Class 33
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Well I haven't studied the timetable. You would need to be a frequent user of services between Gloucester Road and Centre really, to see just how bad it is now. A lot of times the services aren't operating as the timetables suggest they are. Very very often there are gaps of 10 minutes or more when I'm waiting for buses between Zetland Road Junction and Haymarket in either direction. Have lost count of the times I've walked down Zetland Road intending to get a bus on Cheltenham Road towards Centre, and then I see two buses going down together, and then another one just after. "Oh no! That's three buses I've just missed. Will probably have to wait about 10 minutes for the next one now!" I think to myself. And yes, I get to the bus stop and the live display says next bus in 9 minutes or whatever. I've now started checking the live departures display before I leave my house to try and avoid this frequent annoying problem. Before, there was never usually any need to do this for a journey along that stretch. Another example, on an evening last week waiting for a bus at the Haymarket, the live departures display says a 71 in 12 minutes, a 73 in 12 minutes, and a 75 in 15 minutes! A 12 minute wait for a bus, and three buses practically bunched up together!
It was never as bad as this up until the September 2019 changes. Up till then it was usually never(with exception to early mornings, late at night or on Sundays) more than about a 5 minute wait for any service between Gloucester Road and Centre in either direction.
You've made two posts complaining about the timetabling then you say you haven't studied the timetable! If the timetable is bad it's First's problem, if it cant be kept to then it's likely the real problem is elsewhere.
I've been using buses on Gloucester Road for more years than I care to admit (I don't remember being on a number 5 however it's quite likely I was!), have driven on Gloucester Road for many years and have driven PCVs on Gloucester Road for many years (however not professionally, I couldn't cope with real passengers!). It's an awful place to drive and it's next to impossible to predict how long it'll take to get from one end to another and, as a road with a frequent service, is a classic place for the 'none for half an hour and then three at once problem'. I've never known a time when services have been able to keep to timetables reliably on Gloucester Road however I'd say the recent (last five years) changes have brought more realistic timings as they've used GPS traces from the buses and live departure information is a miracle for those of us who can remember the days before such things.
If you want a more reliable bus service then start asking your local Councillor what they're going to do about reducing congestion by either improving bus priority or removing the pinch points, both of which mean less on road parking and the minute that because the issue you'll find they'll change the subject!
They never used to be like that, but when they upped the frequency on weekday evening last major change they buggered it up completely!
freetoview33
Established Member
Some examples of poor timetables across Bristol Part 1 (Where services interwork) Part 2 will follow later!
1/2) Between 6am and 8am from Cribbs they are timetabled to run within 1 min of each other leaving a 10/12 min gap. Okay this does allow the services to run at even gaps along Whiteladies, but still it is an example of where they don't interwork well, although most of the rest of the day they run at more even intervals from Cribbs but run within 1 min of each other down Whiteladies ..... In the other direction they run quite well up until 9pm where they run together again for some bizarre reason!
3/4) If they run on time actually work very well!
6/7) Also run very well there maybe 1 or 2 trips that could do with being shifted 5 mins to improve gaps.
18/19) Run at poor intervals from Bath 19 min gap followed by a 41 min gap! Although it does help it to run a bit more evenly from Kingswood - Cribbs (Which I guess is the main thing) Although interworking with the 37 could be improved (But I will come to that in part 2)
42/43/44/45) Run horribly up Church Road! With 2 running at the same time then leaving a 10 min gap! That's before we get to the oddity of the 42/43 intervals!
48/48A/49) The 48 and 49 run at even intervals with each other but the 48A runs alongside a 48 or a 49 twice an hour, not sure there is a better way to timetable this as it stands .
70/71) Almost a perfect example of interworking!
75/76) From Hengrove run within 2 mins of each other, then 12/13 min gap, although from Bedminster to Horfield should run every 7/8 mins, then at peak times for some reason they bunch up to run within 2/3mins then a 10/12 min gap!
91/92) Run well from Broadmead to Hengrove, but for some reason have odd gaps on the return to Broadmead.
T1/T2) Although they run very different routes, they both leave Thornbury/Centre at the similar times, T2 could do with being moved forward by 5 mins to fill the gap a bit better.
1/2) Between 6am and 8am from Cribbs they are timetabled to run within 1 min of each other leaving a 10/12 min gap. Okay this does allow the services to run at even gaps along Whiteladies, but still it is an example of where they don't interwork well, although most of the rest of the day they run at more even intervals from Cribbs but run within 1 min of each other down Whiteladies ..... In the other direction they run quite well up until 9pm where they run together again for some bizarre reason!
3/4) If they run on time actually work very well!
6/7) Also run very well there maybe 1 or 2 trips that could do with being shifted 5 mins to improve gaps.
18/19) Run at poor intervals from Bath 19 min gap followed by a 41 min gap! Although it does help it to run a bit more evenly from Kingswood - Cribbs (Which I guess is the main thing) Although interworking with the 37 could be improved (But I will come to that in part 2)
42/43/44/45) Run horribly up Church Road! With 2 running at the same time then leaving a 10 min gap! That's before we get to the oddity of the 42/43 intervals!
48/48A/49) The 48 and 49 run at even intervals with each other but the 48A runs alongside a 48 or a 49 twice an hour, not sure there is a better way to timetable this as it stands .
70/71) Almost a perfect example of interworking!
75/76) From Hengrove run within 2 mins of each other, then 12/13 min gap, although from Bedminster to Horfield should run every 7/8 mins, then at peak times for some reason they bunch up to run within 2/3mins then a 10/12 min gap!
91/92) Run well from Broadmead to Hengrove, but for some reason have odd gaps on the return to Broadmead.
T1/T2) Although they run very different routes, they both leave Thornbury/Centre at the similar times, T2 could do with being moved forward by 5 mins to fill the gap a bit better.
Class 33
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Indeed you're right. Take a look at this example of the timetable of the 75 & 76 from Colston Girls School towards Hengrove during the late afternoon/early evening.
Service 76 - time 1605, Service 75 - time 1616, 76 - 1617, 75 - 1628, 76 - 1629, 75 - 1640, 76 - 1641, 75 - 1652, 76 - 1653, 75 - 1704, 76 - 1705, 75 - 1717, 76 - 1717, 76 - 1729, 75 - 1732
Dreadful timetabling! These services don't operate at 7/8 min intervals at all times during the day! First definitely need to look into this and improve things. And the same goes for some of the other services mentioned too......
-Colly405-
Member
Surely it depends on the main market that the bus is trying to serve?
Re the 1 and 2. If the timetabling means they are evenly spaced from the Downs along Whiteladies, the Triangle, Centre, Broadmead to Temple Meads, then is there an issue?
Re the 42 and 43. Surely the fact that between the two routes they are every 10 minutes is good?
Re the 75 and 76. Again, being timetabled so that they are (theoretically) evenly spaced all the way from Parson St through Bedminster, Redcliffe, Centre, Broadmead, Bishopston and Horfield has got to be good, yes?
Re the T1 and T2. I can't imagine that anyone heading to the parts of the route that are common to both services would consider using the T2, so the time it leaves town doesn't really matter! (as it takes 21 minutes longer than the T1 to reach Almondsbury, and then also diverts via Hortham, adding even more time to the journey).
However, the timings of the T1 vs M1 through Sadly encourage alternate M1 journeys to be quiet...
You have a list of 'problems' but don't actually suggest solutions to most of them. As colly405 has already said most of your examples are routes that diverge at various point then run together. Whoever provides the service then has to decide what the most important section is to have the regular frequency and which has to suffer. The only other solution is to have the service that's got the shorter route hang around for several minutes somewhere so that they're perfectly spaced at every point. I know how popular that would be!
A service has slightly sub optimal journey spacing running against the peak flow! The chances of any of the journeys being on time (when the schools are in) is 0 anyway! There are lots of things to have a go at First for, and areas where timetables could be improved without side effects, but this is pushing it!
freetoview33
Established Member
I will give a proper reply to this later. Explaining more in depth, as it can be done! Just needs some tweaking here and there.
On another topic, I am surprised that the new timetables for April or what's actually happening (other than to the X3) aren't up yet.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
TBH, the 75/76 running within two minutes from Hengrove is neither here nor there. They aren't the same route until they reach Bemmie via markedly different routes.
Same with the 1/2 out of Cribbs. They want to be consistent over the central core part of the route but with differing durations between Cribbs and the Downs (33 mins vs 40 mins) and markedly different routes via Westbury vs Henleaze, it makes perfect sense to have them leave relatively closely together from Cribbs. I guess for the purists, the 1 driver could always be asked to park up in Westbury for 7 mins and read the paper
Tommy Walters
Member
Bath suddenly really short of buses again! 10183, 33948 & 33950 all breaking down for the 2nd day in a row today (3rd day for 948).
Things so desperate that LH have leant 37357 over as cover!
Things so desperate that LH have leant 37357 over as cover!
Such enlightened times. It would have been time for a woodbine previously, or two if the result was to slot in behind another bus from Blackboy Hill!TBH, the 75/76 running within two minutes from Hengrove is neither here nor there. They aren't the same route until they reach Bemmie via markedly different routes.
Same with the 1/2 out of Cribbs. They want to be consistent over the central core part of the route but with differing durations between Cribbs and the Downs (33 mins vs 40 mins) and markedly different routes via Westbury vs Henleaze, it makes perfect sense to have them leave relatively closely together from Cribbs. I guess for the purists, the 1 driver could always be asked to park up in Westbury for 7 mins and read the paper
Whiteway215
Established Member
Good job 32003/4/7/9/14/15 keep on trucking!
And 008
Caught 357 down from campus today - was a real treat. Different to every other B9 in Bath, albeit marginally different to 358. Sounds and rides very well.
martyjon
Member
Gas bus 39449 on Y1 all day 2nd day in passenger service giving regulars a taste of things to come when the LYNX liveried vehicles are unleashed.