First West of England (Bristol, Bath & The West)

[DaveHarries]

Fortunately First vehicle allocation policy is a little more scientific than your personal preferences.

Streetdecks are designed for city routes (there's a clue in the name) so they should be OK on the 3/4.

Yes I know. Never been a fan of the Streetdeck though, either by ride quality or appearance. I used the 376 when that had them and also I have been on some of the ones in Bristol on Service 90, albeit only on a work errand.

Dave

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes I know. Never been a fan of the Streetdeck though, either by ride quality or appearance. I used the 376 when that had them and also I have been on some of the ones in Bristol on Service 90, albeit only on a work errand.

Dave

On the 376, they were ok to travel on but clearly, they couldn't cope with the mix of hill slogging and relatively fast open stretches as evidence by the failure rates. For that reason, I was very surprised that they even evaluated one for Jurassic Coaster. Mind you, I'm equally surprised that they might have them for Excel services but perhaps if they go for 6 cylinder ones, as suggested by @baza585, perhaps they might be ok.

As for looks, it is all subjective. I didn't like them at first but I've grown to accept them and they're not so bad.

 

[baza585]

Depends who the someone is?

To be honest, the Streetdeck was only evaluated in early August. It would seem odd to do that, order them and then divert them in four months.

I suspect they were ordered well before that!

I'm guessing a bit but I'm not sure First opcos now get to specify vehicle makes, they just order doubles, long singles, midis and minis. They then get allocated new or cascades according to their requirements and what is available for cascade within Group and what Group can afford to buy new.

The Weymouth August trial may have been an attempt to prove to a doubtful opco that the Group standard new diesel decker (Streetdeck) was suitable for their routes, possibly in light of the 376 fiasco.

Either way, if they are not wanted elsewhere, the would be very welcome on the Eclipse routes which are very flat!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I suspect they were ordered well before that!

I'm guessing a bit but I'm not sure First opcos now get to specify vehicle makes, they just order doubles, long singles, midis and minis. They then get allocated new or cascades according to their requirements and what is available for cascade within Group and what Group can afford to buy new.

The Weymouth August trial may have been an attempt to prove to a doubtful opco that the Group standard new diesel decker (Streetdeck) was suitable for their routes, possibly in light of the 376 fiasco.

Either way, if they are not wanted elsewhere, the would be very welcome on the Eclipse routes which are very flat!

I'm sure that @On the Buses could advise on the policy. However, it seems to have been more that the OpCos have had more influence in vehicle spec. First West Yorks have been the only ones taking Streetdecks and seem to recall that First Eastern Counties had quite some input in what they wanted for their Excel service.

TBH, I'm just a little dubious that Wessex were getting new deckers, and if they were, they were to be Streetdecks.

 

[On the Buses]

I'm sure that @On the Buses could advise on the policy. However, it seems to have been more that the OpCos have had more influence in vehicle spec. First West Yorks have been the only ones taking Streetdecks and seem to recall that First Eastern Counties had quite some input in what they wanted for their Excel service.

TBH, I'm just a little dubious that Wessex were getting new deckers, and if they were, they were to be Streetdecks.

Right tools for the job. Everything is a collaboration between the division and the op cos.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Right tools for the job. Everything is a collaboration between the division and the op cos.

Thank you for that - there is always a balance between the greater corporate good and the particular requirements of the OpCos.

As it is, I'm a little sceptical of the idea of new Streetdecks for the Jurassic Coaster services having been diverted given that the JC routes aren't the greatest moneyspinners (highly seasonal) and with various clean air zones in urban centres to deal with, there are more pressing cases for new vehicles. Also, would seem odd given they spent most of this spring repainting the e400s drafted onto the routes.

You'd hope that the Streetdecks apparently due for Weston are up to the job, given how they fared on the 376. This talk of a split with some going to Bristol raises the question as to whether the 63 plates are staying at Weston? Also, where might @D2007wsm's hated ex London ones may end up?

 

[Callum15632]

Thank you for that - there is always a balance between the greater corporate good and the particular requirements of the OpCos.

As it is, I'm a little sceptical of the idea of new Streetdecks for the Jurassic Coaster services having been diverted given that the JC routes aren't the greatest moneyspinners (highly seasonal) and with various clean air zones in urban centres to deal with, there are more pressing cases for new vehicles. Also, would seem odd given they spent most of this spring repainting the e400s drafted onto the routes.

You'd hope that the Streetdecks apparently due for Weston are up to the job, given how they fared on the 376. This talk of a split with some going to Bristol raises the question as to whether the 63 plates are staying at Weston? Also, where might @D2007wsm's hated ex London ones may end up?

The ex London ones are due to head to First Hampshire and Dorset I'm told.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The ex London ones are due to head to First Hampshire and Dorset I'm told.

I wouldn't have been surprised if that had been the case, in order to allow the East Lancs Tridents to move on. However, with the B9s said to be heading there (or are they a loan), is that still the case?

 

[Nammer]

The ex London ones are due to head to First Hampshire and Dorset I'm told.

Are they Euro6? With the Clean Air Zone in Portsmouth, I expect that is why the B9s have gone instead

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Are they Euro6? With the Clean Air Zone in Portsmouth, I expect that is why the B9s have gone instead

Yes - they are. As you can see on this photo (credit to photographer), there's the green vinyl stating Euro 6 standard. They were all upgraded for the Bristol CAZ that is now delayed.

Bright orange on a grey day

The Excel network of services in North Somerset wear this bright orange livery and it really catches the eye, especially on a grey day of persistent and heavy rain. 33560 SN58CGV is a former London and Leicester e400 and is seen in Long Ashton en route from Weston to Bristol on October 2nd 2021.

www.flickr.com

 

[RELL6L]

So with the D1 withdrawal and the D1X being replaced by an extension of the 3...
The 3 seems to be double deckers so I assume the 3 extension to Trowbridge will run via the D1X route. I don't really see how it can serve possibly serve Winsley so it will just be a fast (ish) service to Bradford on Avon and Trowbridge, ie where the train already goes. Maybe some low-hanging fruit this way (not literally!) but not quite the 265 of old!

I agree there is the Libra 94 covering part of the D1 via Limpley Stoke etc, but not Winsley and this is not much of a service.
So do we think there will be a supported service to replace the D1 between Bath and Bradford on Avon (at least) via the existing D1 route?
And then also Trowbridge - Westbury - Warminster - Salisbury, either as a single service or broken at Warminster.
Arguably the most efficient way to run it is as now, with 5 buses running the normal daytime service and with reasonable layovers to avoid unreliability.
Bathampton could be included but it looks as if First are going to keep this as the 11. Then evening extension to Trowbridge - what's that about?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So with the D1 withdrawal and the D1X being replaced by an extension of the 3...
The 3 seems to be double deckers so I assume the 3 extension to Trowbridge will run via the D1X route. I don't really see how it can serve possibly serve Winsley so it will just be a fast (ish) service to Bradford on Avon and Trowbridge, ie where the train already goes. Maybe some low-hanging fruit this way (not literally!) but not quite the 265 of old!

I agree there is the Libra 94 covering part of the D1 via Limpley Stoke etc, but not Winsley and this is not much of a service.
So do we think there will be a supported service to replace the D1 between Bath and Bradford on Avon (at least) via the existing D1 route?
And then also Trowbridge - Westbury - Warminster - Salisbury, either as a single service or broken at Warminster.
Arguably the most efficient way to run it is as now, with 5 buses running the normal daytime service and with reasonable layovers to avoid unreliability.
Bathampton could be included but it looks as if First are going to keep this as the 11. Then evening extension to Trowbridge - what's that about?

I regularly drive/drove the A36 from Limpley Stoke to Bathampton (before heading over toll bridge) and it was surprising how many passengers you get along there waiting for the D1. The villages of Limpley Stoke and Winsley are also reasonable traffic generators but along the A363 past Monkton Farleigh - there's next to nothing; that's why the X4 (of old) was rerouted via Winsley. Obviously, I don't know the figures (and First do) but it seems a very solution-based proposal in removing any perceived "duplication" of mileage.

TBH, if that was the case, they'd have been better off getting some long Solos and having the D1 simply running via Bathampton during the day as it does on Sundays/evenings. @Buses in Bath has already made the same statement in replacing the 11. These changes and the 178 seem to be have been done in a darkened room and defy logic; I know there are hard decisions to make but there are better ways of managing changes; send the D1x half hourly....they may as well withdraw it entirely.

 

[baza585]

The ex London ones are due to head to First Hampshire and Dorset I'm told.

Just when I was having a good day.......

These have been thrashed between weston and Brizzle for years and are clapped out. But I can see the logic of moving them to Hoeford for schools, and releasing the EL Tridents to FSW because they are Euro 6.

I don't think the 6 B9s are loans (why not send the Weston E400s now if that is the long term plan?) but I can't confirm
that. I wouldn't be surprised if Hoeford lose their 4 ex Rotala E400s to Dorset or further west if all the Weston 58 plates appear.

Interesting times ......

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Just when I was having a good day.......

These have been thrashed between weston and Brizzle for years and are clapped out. But I can see the logic of moving them to Hoeford for schools, and releasing the EL Tridents to FSW because they are Euro 6.

I don't think the 6 B9s are loans (why not send the Weston E400s now if that is the long term plan?) but I can't confirm
that. I wouldn't be surprised if Hoeford lose their 4 ex Rotala E400s to Dorset or further west if all the Weston 58 plates appear.

Interesting times ......

They've spent 5 out of 13 years on the Excels; probably had more hammer when grinding around East London!! Not certain how strenuous the Solent duties are but they should be ok I'd have thought.

 

[baza585]

They've spent 5 out of 13 years on the Excels; probably had more hammer when grinding around East London!! Not certain how strenuous the Solent duties are but they should be ok I'd have thought.

If First Hants and Dorset keep the B9s, then I would expect them to run the Uni services in Portsmouth, leaving the E400s for schools. Probably ok for that and Rail Replacement at the weekend.

 

[Callum15632]

If First Hants and Dorset keep the B9s, then I would expect them to run the Uni services in Portsmouth, leaving the E400s for schools. Probably ok for that and Rail Replacement at the weekend.

Yeah makes sense.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

The thing is, the E40Ds on the Uni services are 14-reg - and I wonder if there might be a contractual reason to keep them on the Uni services (late-model, "old-style" E400s can be converted to Euro6 easily, as hundreds in London have been done). Or, it simply is a matter of adding yet more vehicles to the paint queue.

Speaking of which, let's hope they get these B9TLs out of their Bristol schemes sharpish...

 

[baza585]

The thing is, the E40Ds on the Uni services are 14-reg - and I wonder if there might be a contractual reason to keep them on the Uni services (late-model, "old-style" E400s can be converted to Euro6 easily, as hundreds in London have been done). Or, it simply is a matter of adding yet more vehicles to the paint queue.

Speaking of which, let's hope they get these B9TLs out of their Bristol schemes sharpish...

The 14 plate E40Ds are on the Park & Rides, not the Uni services.

I'm told not all the B9s are permanent transfers. I reckon some are a stopgap while the 12 plate ex Rotala E400s are upgraded to Euro6.........

 

[aswilliamsuk]

The 14 plate E40Ds are on the Park & Rides, not the Uni services.

I'm told not all the B9s are permanent transfers. I reckon some are a stopgap while the 12 plate ex Rotala E400s are upgraded to Euro6.........

Sorry, my bad - I knew it was one of the two and had a 50/50 of getting it wrong!

Four of the 376xx batch - some of the newer B9TLs at Bristol - did seem odd choices, especially as the 373xx examples are the ones being cascaded elsewhere generally from WoE. So I suspect what's perhaps likely here is that these are a stopgap pending other cascades (perhaps once those mooted StreetDecks arrive at WoE).

It has become very clear indeed (going on a variety of posts, transfers and happenings across the group) that there is a concerted effort going on within First to oust the remaining B7TL/ALX400s (of which there are about 80 or so left), so I think we can expect that wherever gets new 'deckers in the coming months is going to be doing a lot of cascading.

 

[volvob12]

Four of the 376xx batch - some of the newer B9TLs at Bristol - did seem odd choices, especially as the 373xx examples are the ones being cascaded elsewhere generally from WoE. So I suspect what's perhaps likely here is that these are a stopgap pending other cascades (perhaps once those mooted StreetDecks arrive at WoE).

I’m not aware that any other B9TLs have been cascaded from WoE before? (Exempt ill fated 37351)

Either way they’re not that odd a choice, recently repainted and no longer needed due to lower PVRs. It makes complete sense to transfer out rather than use on the wrong routes, or have to paint again.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

I’m not aware that any other B9TLs have been cascaded from WoE before? (Exempt ill fated 37351)

Either way they’re not that odd a choice, recently repainted and no longer needed due to lower PVRs. It makes complete sense to transfer out rather than use on the wrong routes, or have to paint again.

37319-28 (and a couple of others, I think?) all were cascaded (admittedly internally within WoE, but the point stands) out to Weston - still with the Orange-front branding - to update the "Badgerline" fleet.

That said WoE has also become, as far as I can tell, the first part of First to have withdrawn all of their B7TLs.

 

[Whiteway215]

Sorry, my bad - I knew it was one of the two and had a 50/50 of getting it wrong!

Four of the 376xx batch - some of the newer B9TLs at Bristol - did seem odd choices, especially as the 373xx examples are the ones being cascaded elsewhere generally from WoE. So I suspect what's perhaps likely here is that these are a stopgap pending other cascades (perhaps once those mooted StreetDecks arrive at WoE).

It has become very clear indeed (going on a variety of posts, transfers and happenings across the group) that there is a concerted effort going on within First to oust the remaining B7TL/ALX400s (of which there are about 80 or so left), so I think we can expect that wherever gets new 'deckers in the coming months is going to be doing a lot of cascading.

In my opinion for what it’s worth is the emphasis is on removing the remaining Tridents across the group as much as B7TLs.

 

[AB93]

I’m not aware that any other B9TLs have been cascaded from WoE before? (Exempt ill fated 37351)

Either way they’re not that odd a choice, recently repainted and no longer needed due to lower PVRs. It makes complete sense to transfer out rather than use on the wrong routes, or have to paint again.

37359 was swapped with 39005 in York a few years back.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It has become very clear indeed (going on a variety of posts, transfers and happenings across the group) that there is a concerted effort going on within First to oust the remaining B7TL/ALX400s (of which there are about 80 or so left), so I think we can expect that wherever gets new 'deckers in the coming months is going to be doing a lot of cascading.

Got to remember that the ALX/B7TLs are all now 18 years old if not older. Certainly, they are clearing them out and also looking to get rid of the Tridents of a similar age.

Either way they’re not that odd a choice, recently repainted and no longer needed due to lower PVRs. It makes complete sense to transfer out rather than use on the wrong routes, or have to paint again.

It does seem rather odd to be repainting vehicles having only painted them about 18 months ago but best laid plans and all that

That said WoE has also become, as far as I can tell, the first part of First to have withdrawn all of their B7TLs.

Think First South Yorkshire beat them to that accolade in this round. More pertinently, not certain that First Greater Manchester has had any for quite a few years - think it was 2019 that the last ones headed to Bristol

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

A most unexpected sighting today was former CityLine Leyland Lynx 1611 (F611RTC) whirring its way through Bristol city centre, in the red/yellow/blue livery with the Badger motif dating from the days before First became a thing.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A most unexpected sighting today was former CityLine Leyland Lynx 1611 (F611RTC) whirring its way through Bristol city centre, in the red/yellow/blue livery with the Badger motif dating from the days before First became a thing.

Along with a Citybus RE.... - Belfast style not Bristol Omnibus

 

[Jj79]

Does anyone know if the new double deckers at Weston will all be in Badgerline livery? Will any be in Excel livery? Or will we see Badgerline liveried buses on the X1 etc? Also any delivery date known?

 

[Callum15632]

Does anyone know if the new double deckers at Weston will all be in Badgerline livery? Will any be in Excel livery? Or will we see Badgerline liveried buses on the X1 etc? Also any delivery date known?

Nope just know sometime early 2022.

 

[Jj79]

Nope just know sometime early 2022.

Thanks

 

[Callum15632]

I've heard on a Facebook group that when Weston's new streetdecks arrive, 33965-71 will be transferring to Weymouth for Jurassic Coaster work.