First West of England (Bristol, Bath & The West)

[Kremlin Stooge]

The only one I can see in Bristol (so far) is that Service 5 (City Centre - Downend) looses the section of route via. Bromley Heath (Queensholm Drive) with buses now operating direct between Oldbury Court (Long Close) and Downend (The Horseshoe) via. Cleeve Hill. No new timetables for other routes as yet but I wonder if something will be done to cater for passengers in the Queensholm Drive area.

Dave

To me that looks very much like the 5 is reverting to its former route that ran back in the days when the (then) 4 used to serve Bromley Heath, on its way to and from Hanham via Kingswood. This was pretty much the position during my driving career out of Lawrence Hill. Between Oldbury Court and Downend there was very little business on the 5, the 48 taking most of the city centre-bound passengers. Similarly on the 4, outside of the peak hours, the Queensholm Drive/Quakers Road sections would be absolutely dead in terms of revenue generation. The X62 would also try and drum up demand, but again, outside the peaks, it could be very quiet indeed.

To be fair to First, and before them City Line, many attempts have been made to create a viable service from that little corner of South Glos but the punters just won’t bite, for whatever reason.

 

[Citistar]

To me that looks very much like the 5 is reverting to its former route that ran back in the days when the (then) 4 used to serve Bromley Heath, on its way to and from Hanham via Kingswood. This was pretty much the position during my driving career out of Lawrence Hill. Between Oldbury Court and Downend there was very little business on the 5, the 48 taking most of the city centre-bound passengers. Similarly on the 4, outside of the peak hours, the Queensholm Drive/Quakers Road sections would be absolutely dead in terms of revenue generation. The X62 would also try and drum up demand, but again, outside the peaks, it could be very quiet indeed.

To be fair to First, and before them City Line, many attempts have been made to create a viable service from that little corner of South Glos but the punters just won’t bite, for whatever reason.

I was a regular on the old 18 (Keynsham - Kingswood - Downened - Parkway - Shirehampton) during 1996-2000 and this was almost exactly my experience of the area. Peak hour services through Bromley Heath used to do very good business heading towards UWE, Abbey Wood and Parkway, but the rest of the day it would be rare to see a passenger. It really seems to be dormitory territory and the 5 was never a reasonable proposition for commuting to work because it takes such a lengthy route. I'm sure the proximity of 48, Metro and Y1 within a short walk from the estate has probably contributed to it's downfall.

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

I was a regular on the old 18 (Keynsham - Kingswood - Downened - Parkway - Shirehampton) during 1996-2000 and this was almost exactly my experience of the area. Peak hour services through Bromley Heath used to do very good business heading towards UWE, Abbey Wood and Parkway, but the rest of the day it would be rare to see a passenger. It really seems to be dormitory territory and the 5 was never a reasonable proposition for commuting to work because it takes such a lengthy route. I'm sure the proximity of 48, Metro and Y1 within a short walk from the estate has probably contributed to it's downfall.

Reassuring to know I wasn’t the only one who served that traffic desert! More than once I was in my cab thinking “I really don’t know why they bother with this, all I’m doing is carting fresh air from Frenchay/Oldbury Court to Downend”.

A bit brutal perhaps, but the 5 might as well truncate to Oldbury Court, the residents of that estate almost exclusively use Fishponds as their local centre, and not Downend. As for Bromley Heath, it probably only needs a modern-day, peak hour equivalent of the X62, 3 or 4 journeys into the city in the morning and vice versa in the evening peak, with some other peak-only services to and from the UWE/Abbey Wood/Parkway areas.

On a wider note, this is partly why I am wary of local authorities getting too deeply involved in route design and planning. What looks good on a map, or even from some ‘inclusivity’ brain-storming session, doesn’t necessarily work out in reality. The difference between theoretical demand and actual demand can be quite stark, not to mention potentially expensive...

 

[Tommy Walters]

Unexpected repaint : 33949 has gone into BathCity Blue!

 

[volvob12]

Unexpected repaint : 33949 has gone into BathCity Blue!

And very good it looks too! As much as I liked the Bath Unibus branding, the shade of purple used was terrible for colour matching and a lot of the batch looked patchwork

 

[Tommy Walters]

And very good it looks too! As much as I liked the Bath Unibus branding, the shade of purple used was terrible for colour matching and a lot of the batch looked patchwork

This was a problem for virtually every vehicle that had it. There were subtle differences in the paintwork on the old bendibuses if you looked closely. Looked like they used one shade to repaint the first couple, and another for the rest!

 

[volvob12]

This was a problem for virtually every vehicle that had it. There were subtle differences in the paintwork on the old bendibuses if you looked closely. Looked like they used one shade to repaint the first couple, and another for the rest!

Yep it wasn’t the best colour, the old ALX400s looked awful by the end - especially 32015 in Kernow.

It’s funny how the few Eclipse escapees that eventually ended up with GoAhead London were painted in a very similar shade of purple!

A bit brutal perhaps, but the 5 might as well truncate to Oldbury Court, the residents of that estate almost exclusively use Fishponds as their local centre, and not Downend. As for Bromley Heath, it probably only needs a modern-day, peak hour equivalent of the X62, 3 or 4 journeys into the city in the morning and vice versa in the evening peak, with some other peak-only services to and from the UWE/Abbey Wood/Parkway areas.

There was of course the fairly useful, all day, X48 around Bromley Heath a few years back, but the success that was the M3 put paid to that! It went up against the SGBC 462 (South Gloucestershire Bus & Coach) which had a loyal following. I don’t know how well it does under Stagecoach now?

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

Yep it wasn’t the best colour, the old ALX400s looked awful by the end - especially 32015 in Kernow.

It’s funny how the few Eclipse escapees that eventually ended up with GoAhead London were painted in a very similar shade of purple!



There was of course the fairly useful, all day, X48 around Bromley Heath a few years back, but the success that was the M3 put paid to that! It went up against the SGBC 462 (South Gloucestershire Bus & Coach) which had a loyal following. I don’t know how well it does under Stagecoach now?

I never experienced the X48, either as a driver or passenger, so couldn’t really pass any observations about how much business it did originating from Bromley Heath, I suspect it wasn’t a great deal though, outside of the peak hours.

The 462 is still going, saw one a few days ago but too far away to get a feel for the numbers on board. Whether it is doing well is hard to say, given the wider distortions of the last 18 months or so.

 

[Citistar]

Reassuring to know I wasn’t the only one who served that traffic desert! More than once I was in my cab thinking “I really don’t know why they bother with this, all I’m doing is carting fresh air from Frenchay/Oldbury Court to Downend”.

A bit brutal perhaps, but the 5 might as well truncate to Oldbury Court, the residents of that estate almost exclusively use Fishponds as their local centre, and not Downend. As for Bromley Heath, it probably only needs a modern-day, peak hour equivalent of the X62, 3 or 4 journeys into the city in the morning and vice versa in the evening peak, with some other peak-only services to and from the UWE/Abbey Wood/Parkway areas.

On a wider note, this is partly why I am wary of local authorities getting too deeply involved in route design and planning. What looks good on a map, or even from some ‘inclusivity’ brain-storming session, doesn’t necessarily work out in reality. The difference between theoretical demand and actual demand can be quite stark, not to mention potentially expensive...

I think the pressure to keep the 5 beyond Oldbury Court is almost entirely political. The Stagecoach 462 does almost exactly what you described. For all it's faults, the old 18 around that part of the world did very well at peak times, and reasonably well between Kingswood and Downend off peak, certainly well enough to suggest that the currently hourly 19 from Bath is inadequate. East Bristol has a lot of these curious little off-peak passenger flows around Fishponds, Kingswood and the like, which i feel have potential to work in around different peak hour services. But such things aren't fashionable, and both company and council seem to insist that everything needs to do the same route for 14 hours a day or it can't run. As nobody else can enter First's ticketing ecosystem, nobody else can run them.

I also concur with your scepticism of those in offices planning routes without any commercial motivation. The absolute casserole that the West of England Combined Authority have made of the 82 around Norton Radstock is about to come to fruition when First take it over from 29/08 and everyone discovers that it has little hope of getting the few school children it still serves to Somervale in time, and will probably leave just before they escape from the place in the afternoons. I do wonder if the person who came up with the revised timetable even knows where Paulton is, let alone understand it's passenger flows...

 

[Class 33]

Sundays aside, I don't know if I'd call the changes "really bad" when looking at whole picture. Certainly they are bad news for those not in Nailsea town centre or travelling to destinations other than Bristol. But from Link Road on a weekday day, other than between 1117 and 1222, the wait for a for a X7/X8/X9 service to Bristol is not more than 45 minutes. It feels like it could have been worse given how passenger numbers have crashed. I suspect the biggest impact is the loss of a clock face timetable which makes the service less attractive.

If the bus industry Covid finance support is ending, the sad reality is that it's not possible to justify 3.5 buses an hour to Nailsea with less than a handful of people on each.



Let's hope they aren't planning to follow the example of Cornwall Council!

Well it could be bad news for those who travel to Nailsea from Bristol to work, and also vice versa. Depending on what hours you work and whether the times of the reduced and changed timetable matches up to the time you start and finish. Giving my example, I work 8:30 to 4:45. On the outbound journey I have the choice of either the X7 leaving Bristol at 0720 or the X8 leaving Bristol at 0730. Arriving there half hour early, but still. But leaving work at 4:45, I'd obviously miss the X8 departing at 1600. And the next one after that isn't until an X9 at 1717. So would have to be stuck waiting at that bus stop for half hour! And there's also then an X7 just 7 minutes later at 1724. But that's quite a long gap between 1600 and 1717, and then another bus after that just 7 minutes later. Oh and then an X8 15 minutes later at 1739. Poor timetabling and not very spaced out between 1600 and 1717. What a nuisance. But my temp role in Nailsea is only expected to continue until mid September anyway, so I'll just have to put up with these inconvenient bus times for those few weeks.

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

For all it's faults, the old 18 around that part of the world did very well at peak times, and reasonably well between Kingswood and Downend off peak, certainly well enough to suggest that the currently hourly 19 from Bath is inadequate. East Bristol has a lot of these curious little off-peak passenger flows around Fishponds, Kingswood and the like, which i feel have potential to work in around different peak hour services.

I remember the old 18, indeed I recall the 318/319 as well, complete with the short period that ex-London Dennis Arrows were deployed. Whilst I was condemnatory of the 4 around Bromley Heath, I would be being unfair not to acknowledge that it too would pick up some business between Downend/Staple Hill/Kingswood.

Adopting a more expansive frame of mind, perhaps the 5 (running via Cleeve Hill) could be extended from Downend (which always struck me as a something-or-nothing terminus) via Staple Hill to Kingswood. This would improve on the frequency currently provided by the 19 and, who knows, offer Oldbury Court a decent alternative to Fishponds as a local Wetherspoons shopping and amenity centre.

 

[Wessexbuses]

35161 has now returned from its loan spell at Weymouth, 37586 has gone the other way.

 

[Citistar]

South Gloucestershire Tory councillors have let the cat out of the bag that the 18 is being withdrawn in a week - link.

LOCAL CONSERVATIVES LAUNCH PETITION TO SAVE "VITAL" BUS SERVICE AFTER SHOCK ANNOUNCEMENT TO PULL FUNDING
A campaign has been launched by local Conservatives to save a bus service linking rural communities between Kingswood and Bath after the West of England Combined Authority (WECA) announced it would be pulling funding.
The Number 18, which connects Kingswood to Bath, is set to be discontinued after WECA decided not to renew the service’s contract at the end of this month, meaning communities such as Oldland Common, Longwell Green and Bitton, who were not consulted on the decision, will miss out on the service.
Calling for WECA to reconsider, Cllrs Erica Williams and Paul Hughes, who represent the Bitton and Oldland Ward in South Gloucestershire, and Kingswood MP Chris Skidmore have launched a petition to save the route, asking residents to show their support for the Number 18 and call for the funding to be reinstated.
Cllrs Erica Williams and Paul Hughes said: “This is a shock for our communities. The Number 18 is a vital service that is used by many local residents as a direct route to places like Kingswood, Keynsham and Bath for commuters, families and shoppers, and missing out some of our more rural communities has the potential to leave them significantly disconnected.
“It is therefore really disappointing to see that WECA plans to pull funding, resulting in many of those smaller communities losing a lifeline without any opportunity for consultation. With this petition, we are asking for residents to show their support and demonstrate to WECA that cutting off funding the Number 18 would be a mistake!”
Kingswood MP Chris Skidmore added: “It is a shame that the well-used cross-boundary Number 18 will no longer be funded through the Combined Authority, undermining its purpose in acting as a transport authority across the West of England. I will be writing to the Metro Mayor to highlight our collective concerns and would encourage as many local residents as possible to sign the petition to call for the Number 18 to keep running.”
To sign the petition, visit https://www.chrisskidmore.com/campaigns/save18bus

 

[carlberry]

South Gloucestershire Tory councillors have let the cat out of the bag that the 18 is being withdrawn in a week - link.

I assume they'll all be voting for tax increases to pay for it, I thought that Boris's better bouncing buses bonanza was going to stop all this kind of thing now anyway.

 

[Citistar]

I assume they'll all be voting for tax increases to pay for it, I thought that Boris's better bouncing buses bonanza was going to stop all this kind of thing now anyway.

But this is the problem. Before the (already inadequate) funding for that comes on stream, we're going to have more "rationalisation to better meet passenger demand" as First would say. Bus Back Better needs to be preceeded by Extinguish Fire First.

 

[volvob12]

I’ve been flicking through the new timetables on Traveline and a surprise improvement is the 349 now has a half hourly Sunday and Bank holiday service, between 8 and 6.

However, even more of a surprise is on the hour it broadly does the Keynsham loop minutes behind the 17 on its Sat, Sun & Bank Holidays only loop.

 

[freetoview33]

I’ve been flicking through the new timetables on Traveline and a surprise improvement is the 349 now has a half hourly Sunday and Bank holiday service, between 8 and 6.

However, even more of a surprise is on the hour it broadly does the Keynsham loop minutes behind the 17 on its Sat, Sun & Bank Holidays only loop.

Because the 17 (Then 16 between Kingswood and Keynsham) won't run then.

 

[Buses in Bath]

Because the 17 (Then 16 between Kingswood and Keynsham) won't run then.

The 16/17 split is no longer happening and the new timetable shows it will still do the loop on Sundays.

 

[swifty]

Because the 17 (Then 16 between Kingswood and Keynsham) won't run then.

I think you’ve miss understood what has been posted above? Both the 17 and 349 will be running Saturday, Sunday & Bank Holidays around south Keynsham, minutes apart, from next Sunday.

Also as has been stated above there is no 16, and as far as I’m aware, although tendered as the ‘16’ it would’ve been run as the 17 anyway.

 

[Callum15632]

I've heard somewhere that apparently the 17 is going to be kept as the full route of Southmead to Keynsham but being run by single decks. Is this true?

 

[Private Baxter]

I've heard somewhere that apparently the 17 is going to be kept as the full route of Southmead to Keynsham but being run by single decks. Is this true?

No idea, but if there are a few surplus singles around, then the 17 is perhaps an appropriate route. Would be a shame after last year's investment, but then that was before Covid

 

[Buses in Bath]

I've heard somewhere that apparently the 17 is going to be kept as the full route of Southmead to Keynsham but being run by single decks. Is this true?

it is being kept as a full route but am not sure about the single deck thing. Aparently the West of England Combined Authority has required that all subsidised routes are ran with single deckers for some unknown reason so this may very well be true and completely out of firsts control. I dont see how on earth the transport authority would want this though as they are literally paying for a downgrade in buses for no reason. I mean it benefits them in no way to do this. It makes me really annoyed after the bus company have actually made an investment into something for the transport authority who should be encouraging investment to do this if that is the case.

 

[Private Baxter]

What single decks are available that could possibly be used?

 

[Buses in Bath]

What single decks are available that could possibly be used?

I suppose the Streetlites in Bath would be used.

 

[Callum15632]

Lawrence Hill do have about 4 Streetlites (47443,47444,47447 and 47559) and two Excel ones. One is used for the X8 and one Excel Streetlite is spare. One of the 4 Streetlites (excluding the Excel ones) has to be used on the 35 Bristol to Marshfield, so that leaves three Streetlites to be used on the 17 if that happens.

 

[NJ51]

There are also five 2005 Volvo / Eclipses kicking around that have recently been taken out of service from the 72 and W20 !

 

[volvob12]

Didn’t the tenders also stipulate Euro 5 as a minimum, so they’d be no use on those?

 

[Private Baxter]

There are also five 2005 Volvo / Eclipses kicking around that have recently been taken out of service from the 72 and W20 !

That did actually cross my mind, as technically they have become available, although I think the plan is to get rid of them! And as fond as I am of them, I doubt replacing state of the art 69/20 plate gas buses with rough 17 year old single deck eclipses would go down that well!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't know the whys and wherefores of single deckers on tendered services etc, and them being put on the 17. My two penneth FWIW...

Kingswood is part of an AQMA (Air Quality Management Area) as is Keynsham and Staple Hill. That specifies a requirement to get emissions below a certain level, not necessarily using a particular fuel. Therefore, Streetlites converted to Euro VI would be fine from that perspective, as Staple Hill's main routes are operated by Euro VI e400s.

It might be that, given the 349 has been operated by elderly Euro III deckers, that if gas buses were to be displaced from the 17, they could well appear there after Abus effectively close down (save for a contract or two)?

The chances of 2004/5 Eclipses appearing on the 17.... a very long shot, I'd suggest. They are great machines but they have had it (though 66723 did head to Swansea). The 17 was always an odd choice for brand new fleet in any case. A service that was tendered, was taken on in 2014 as part of the anti Wessex strategy, and had been treated to Darts and latterly some rather old Geminis, suddenly gets brand new fleet.....

 

[NJ51]

I was not seriously suggesting that the Eclipses would be used, but options are limited unless something is drafted in from elsewhere. The gas buses were obtained with Government funding applied for by South Gloucestershire, so they should not really be available for the 349.