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First West Yorkshire & York discussion

61653 HTAFC

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If I remember rightly before 184 was extended to Huddersfield it was 365 that ran Manchester-Huddersfield

As for the Nexus Move journeys on 184 I think these are tendered journeys by TfGM so I would think they would stay the same, I think the main reason why this particular journey turns round at Marsden is because since the old turning circle was took out of use in Diggle this is the only place where the bus can turn round.
Depending how far you go back, the 365 used to run from Bradford Interchange (as a variant of the 363) through Huddersfield to Oldham. Don't recall it ever running through to Manchester, but that's not to say it didn't at some point.
 
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mic

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Depending how far you go back, the 365 used to run from Bradford Interchange (as a variant of the 363) through Huddersfield to Oldham. Don't recall it ever running through to Manchester, but that's not to say it didn't at some point.
They used 4041 to 4046, which were up to GMPTE spec at the time. I think it only ran to Manchester on a Saturday.
 
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Deerfold

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Depending how far you go back, the 365 used to run from Bradford Interchange (as a variant of the 363) through Huddersfield to Oldham. Don't recall it ever running through to Manchester, but that's not to say it didn't at some point.
It did.


...1988.

As Yorkshire Rider, the 365 became a Gold Rider service, with coach style seating. It was extended from Oldham to Manchester, and from Huddersfield to Bradford, possibly compensating for the loss of National Express’ dual purpose route from Manchester to Leeds (replaced by the faster 060 Express Shuttle service which remains popular today, albeit continuing to Liverpool).
 

noddingdonkey

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They used 4041 to 4046, which were up to GMPTE spec at the time. I think it only ran to Manchester on a Saturday.
Was that just the addition of an old Saverstrip machine that they dusted off for the GMPTE Clippercard tickets or were there other requirements?
 

M60lad

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Didnt they have side destination displays fitted something GMPTE specified for tenders?
 

Whisky Papa

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Recent posts have triggered a memory of doing route learning to Manchester in the summer of 1989, having just gained my full licence at Yorkshire Rider's Halifax garage and before it became apparent there would be a vacancy for me at Todmorden (phew!).

This was, if I recall correctly, a Saturday, Sunday(?) and between-the-peaks Mon-Fri extension of the service from Halifax to Oldham, service 562 perhaps? I don't think it lasted very much longer, but if anybody has clearer memories I'd be interested. This is one of those moments the disposal of my old timetables seems like a mistake!
 

mic

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Recent posts have triggered a memory of doing route learning to Manchester in the summer of 1989, having just gained my full licence at Yorkshire Rider's Halifax garage and before it became apparent there would be a vacancy for me at Todmorden (phew!).

This was, if I recall correctly, a Saturday, Sunday(?) and between-the-peaks Mon-Fri extension of the service from Halifax to Oldham, service 562 perhaps? I don't think it lasted very much longer, but if anybody has clearer memories I'd be interested. This is one of those moments the disposal of my old timetables seems like a mistake!
Halifax to Oldham was re-numbered 562 from 556 and ran for years. I remember them even putting the Leyland Tiger Gold Rider Coaches 1616 and 1619 on it a few times,which was a treat.

Was that just the addition of an old Saverstrip machine that they dusted off for the GMPTE Clippercard tickets or were there other requirements?
And extra handrails, plus the buses had keelining at the front as well.
 
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Deerfold

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Halifax to Oldham was re-numbered 562 from 556 and ran for years. I remember them even putting the Leyland Tiger Gold Rider Coaches 1616 and 1619 on it a few times,which was a treat.
The routes were different. The 556 ran through Barkisland between Ripponden and Halifax, whilst the 562 ran on the main road through Sowerby Bridge. When most 556s become 562s, one morning peak journey remianed as a 556 and an extra evening peak journey to the hourly service ran as a 556. These journeys were still running in 1993 when I commuted between Ripponden and Chadderton for a summer.

The X12 Bradford - Halifax - Oldham - Manchester was replaced with the 561 Halifax - Sowerby Bridge - Halifax - Oldham in 1986 for a whole 10 weeks before being replaced by the 556, run by Yelloway from deregulation day. A year later it was extended to Manchester except for Sundays and Evenings. Yelloway were struggling and Crosville ran it for a year or so! Yorkshire Rider took over in 1989. In 1991 most became 562s and in early 1992 (May?) the extensions to Manchester were withdrawn. The X12 briefly ran again in the late 80s as I used to catch the 1645 from Bradford to Ripponden about once a fortnight. It ran again even more briefly from Leeds instead of Bradford.

From 1998 First Manchester ran most journeys. They didn't bother with route familiarisation and I caught several buses that missed bits of route out. The route was withdrawn completely in early 2006 (with the Sunday service lasting a few weeks longer than the weekday service).
 
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Andyh82

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Depending how far you go back, the 365 used to run from Bradford Interchange (as a variant of the 363) through Huddersfield to Oldham. Don't recall it ever running through to Manchester, but that's not to say it didn't at some point.
Generally throughout the Yorkshire Rider period the 365 ran to Oldham during the week, and Manchester on a Saturday. There was that strange period in the late 90s when they started it back at Bradford

The Manchester Saturday extensions had ended a while before the 365 was replaced by the 184 in October 2004. This running through to Manchester every day as part of the main 180/184 frequent service through Saddleworth. Latterly the 180/184 was pared back to just running east of Oldham, as part of frequency reductions probably caused by the tram coming to Oldham
 

M60lad

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Regarding 562 just before it was withdrawn I remember that both Oldham and Halifax used to provide vehicles for the evening duties on both 560 Halifax-Commons and 562 Halifax-Oldham services if I remember Oldham's duties did the following:

562 Oldham-Denshaw via Moorside
562 Denshaw-Oldham via Moorside
562 Oldham-Halifax
560 Halifax-Commons
560 Commons-Halifax
562 Halifax-Oldham
562 Oldham-Denshaw via Moorside
Private back to Depot

Although if there was nobody on the bus at Moorside the last trip would turn round there and head back to Depot.

The Halifax Duties I think did similar:

560 Halifax-Commons
560 Commons-Halifax
562 Halifax-Oldham
562 Oldham-Denshaw via Moorside
562 Denshaw-Oldham via Moorisde
562 Oldham-Halifax
560 Halifax-Commons
560 Commons-Halifax
 

Andyh82

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This is similar to when GM Buses/GMN used to run some trips on the 590 Halifax to Rochdale service which due to interworking also meant that the 591 Halifax to Heptonstall service was every few hours operated by GM Buses
 

Deerfold

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Regarding 562 just before it was withdrawn I remember that both Oldham and Halifax used to provide vehicles for the evening duties on both 560 Halifax-Commons and 562 Halifax-Oldham services if I remember Oldham's duties did the following:

562 Oldham-Denshaw via Moorside
562 Denshaw-Oldham via Moorside
562 Oldham-Halifax
560 Halifax-Commons
560 Commons-Halifax
562 Halifax-Oldham
562 Oldham-Denshaw via Moorside
Private back to Depot

Although if there was nobody on the bus at Moorside the last trip would turn round there and head back to Depot.

The Halifax Duties I think did similar:

560 Halifax-Commons
560 Commons-Halifax
562 Halifax-Oldham
562 Oldham-Denshaw via Moorside
562 Denshaw-Oldham via Moorisde
562 Oldham-Halifax
560 Halifax-Commons
560 Commons-Halifax
Yes, with the first journeys on a Sunday being Oldham - Rishworth - Commons - Rishworth - Halifax and Halifax - Rishworth - Commons - Rishworth - Oldham, so Commons got a bus approx every 2 hours, but only about 10 minutes between the first 2.

On at least one occasion I accompanied a driver up to Commons. I was about to get off at Ripponden and the driver told me he didn't know where Commons was... The driver was increasingly incredulous as e roads got narrower as we approached the Commons terminus. Them, a further surprise as I mentioned the three point turn that was required.
 
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Kieran1990

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Have Leeds (Hunslet) had a new batch of Streetdecks delivered? I spotted a 22 plated example on the 6 the other day. It had a different style of Hanover display downstairs as well.
 
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jonesy3001

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Have Leeds (Hunslet) had a new batch of Streetdecks delivered? I spotted a 22 plated example on the 6 the other day. It had a different style of Hanover display downstairs as well.
35901- 35909 to replace the MMCs 33480 - 33487 that have gone to cymru.
 

leedslad82

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Possible changes in full, according to the leaked plans (reported on West Leeds Dispatch website

https://westleedsdispatch.com/west-leeds-bus-services-face-axe-or-reduction/)
Services which could be withdrawn in april 2023:

9 – White Rose Centre-Pudsey-Farsley-Horsforth

9A – Seacroft-Colton-Swillington-Rothwell-Middleton-White Rose Centre-Pudsey-Farsley-Horsforth

47 – Leeds-Hunslet-Middleton-Morley-White Rose Centre

48 – Wigton Moor-Moortown-Chapeltown-Leeds-Hunslet-Middleton-Morley-White Rose Centre

64 – Leeds-Cross Gates-Barwick-in-Elmet-Aberford

87 – St James’ Hospital-East End Park-Hunslet-Holbeck-Armley-Bramley

Services which could have their frequency cut in april 23:

14 – Pudsey-Armley-Leeds-Logic Business Park

X11 – Leeds-Armley-Pudsey

508 – Halifax-Shelf-Thornbury-Leeds

181 – Huddersfield-Cowlersley-Slaithwaite-Wilberlee

183 – Huddersfield-Cowlersley-Slaithwaite-Wilberlee-Marsden

184 – Huddersfield-Cowlersley-Slaithwaite-Wilberlee-Marsden-Lees-Oldham

185 – Huddersfield-Cowlersley-Slaithwaite-Wilberlee-Marsden
 
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bluenoxid

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The west Leeds area ones are not a surprise. Recommend keeping the 9 funded because it is a crucial out of centre link.
 
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noddingdonkey

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Seems curious that the only services in Huddersfield facing cuts are in the area where the Mayor of West Yorkshire lives...
 

Andyh82

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First have announced service cuts in Leeds and Huddersfield



Services 9, 48 & 183 will be withdrawn and services 14 & 508 will be reduced to hourly

Shockingly though two of the three Leeds Park & Ride services seem to be being withdrawn at weekends. It’s not clear what the relationship between First and WYCA (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) is and who has signed that off.
 

Leeds1970

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Since the introduction of the 'new' Ticketer machines it has been possible to collect vast amounts of data that can then be used to model passenger journeys & flows, so it is no surprise at all to see routes such as the 48 & 87 cut, again the same data would have been used to decide the operating days/hours of the park and ride sites - for instance, when the Stourton site (PR3) opened passenger numbers at Temple Green (PR2) reduced.
Elland Road although generally well used has the additional hindrance of not being available or reduced hours on match days.
withdrawal and recasting of services will also allow some of the loan drivers (from Doncaster, Leicester etc) to return to their own areas'.
With working from home becoming more common and the rise of internet shopping it is highly unlikely that passenger numbers will ever get back to pre covid levels - and as soon as the government £2 flat fare finishes more and more routes / services will either be withdrawn or recast. The £2 flat fare whilst the intention was good it hasn't really attracted 'new to bus' usage most are twirlies taking advantage of a cheap outbound journey pre 09:30 and use their card to return and to be fair £2 single Leeds to the coast who can blame them?
it is rumoured once the £2 flat fare finishes that in West Yorks there are a minimum of 50 routes (across all operators) under threat and many others that will operate 07:00 to 19:00 Monday - Saturday & little or nothing on sundays.
 

Deerfold

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Since the introduction of the 'new' Ticketer machines it has been possible to collect vast amounts of data that can then be used to model passenger journeys & flows, so it is no surprise at all to see routes such as the 48 & 87 cut, again the same data would have been used to decide the operating days/hours of the park and ride sites - for instance, when the Stourton site (PR3) opened passenger numbers at Temple Green (PR2) reduced.
Elland Road although generally well used has the additional hindrance of not being available or reduced hours on match days.
withdrawal and recasting of services will also allow some of the loan drivers (from Doncaster, Leicester etc) to return to their own areas'.
With working from home becoming more common and the rise of internet shopping it is highly unlikely that passenger numbers will ever get back to pre covid levels - and as soon as the government £2 flat fare finishes more and more routes / services will either be withdrawn or recast. The £2 flat fare whilst the intention was good it hasn't really attracted 'new to bus' usage most are twirlies taking advantage of a cheap outbound journey pre 09:30 and use their card to return and to be fair £2 single Leeds to the coast who can blame them?
it is rumoured once the £2 flat fare finishes that in West Yorks there are a minimum of 50 routes (across all operators) under threat and many others that will operate 07:00 to 19:00 Monday - Saturday & little or nothing on sundays.
The £2 flat fare will remain within West Yorkshire (it was for the forseeable future when it was introduced in September 2022).

There's around 40 cross border services - only around a dozen of these have an evening or Sunday service at the moment.
 
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Leeds1970

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The £2 flat fare will remain within West Yorkshire (it was for the forseeable future when it was introduced in November 2022).

There's around 40 cross border services - only around a dozen of these have an evening or Sunday service at the moment.
The £2 flat fare is totally dependent on Tracey Brabins ability to continue funding it. At a quoted cost of around £80,000 per week I would imagine it will finish on the same date as the national scheme.
 

Deerfold

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The £2 flat fare is totally dependent on Tracey Brabins ability to continue funding it. At a quoted cost of around £80,000 per week I would imagine it will finish on the same date as the national scheme.
You can imagine that, but I'm not sure why. Do you think the cost hasn't been budgeted for? Where is your figure from?

(Correction to my earlier post, West Yorkshire brought £2 fares in in September 2022, not Novermber).
 

Leeds1970

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You can imagine that, but I'm not sure why. Do you think the cost hasn't been budgeted for? Where is your figure from?

(Correction to my earlier post, West Yorkshire brought £2 fares in in September 2022, not Novermber).
the £80,000 a week was the approximate costing that Tracey Brabin took to Westminster in order to obtain a fixed cost direct award from the DfT.
in addition - yes i was wrong in thinking it would end on the same date as the national scheme however there is an end date of sorts -


Susan Hinchcliffe, Leader of Bradford City Council and Chair of the West Yorkshire Combined Authority Transport Committee, called it "an ambitious plan for urgent times".
"It provides an immediate saving for regular bus passengers and simplifies fares for people who may be thinking of taking the bus for the first time," she added.

'Reduce traffic congestion'​

The travel scheme has been funded for three years under an agreement with bus operators through the new West Yorkshire Enhanced Partnership.
A spokesperson for the region's bus operators said: "We hope this added choice for customers will encourage more people to discover the great value in bus travel.
"This will help us to grow passenger numbers and so reduce traffic congestion in towns and cities across the region."
The £2 fare is guaranteed for 12 months, but will rise with the rate of inflation every year from September 2023.
 
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noddingdonkey

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If you want to reduce traffic congestion, you have to offer a bus service that people will choose to use, not a token skeleton service designed for those who don't have a choice. That means a frequent service (and quality vehicles) and acknowledging that you might be carting around fresh air for a while until the service gets a repuation for punctuality and convenience.
 

NorthernSpirit

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Since the introduction of the 'new' Ticketer machines it has been possible to collect vast amounts of data that can then be used to model passenger journeys & flows, so it is no surprise at all to see routes such as the 48 & 87 cut, again the same data would have been used to decide the operating days/hours of the park and ride sites - for instance, when the Stourton site (PR3) opened passenger numbers at Temple Green (PR2) reduced. Elland Road although generally well used has the additional hindrance of not being available or reduced hours on match days. Withdrawal and recasting of services will also allow some of the loan drivers (from Doncaster, Leicester etc) to return to their own areas'.
Personally, I think that the Leeds Park & Ride services should interwork with each other, so PR1 becomes a PR2 in the city centre before returning to run a PR3 which in turn returns to run a PR1. It would mean fewer staff changeovers and a bit of variety for the drivers. It would also mean a common livery rather than the current colour coded fleet which reduces flexibility, although I have seen a PR2 branded Streetdeck run a 34 to Otley before now. Then on Sundays simply run the Temple Green site as a sole service between 0900 and 1800.

With working from home becoming more common and the rise of internet shopping it is highly unlikely that passenger numbers will ever get back to pre covid levels - and as soon as the government £2 flat fare finishes more and more routes / services will either be withdrawn or recast. The £2 flat fare whilst the intention was good it hasn't really attracted 'new to bus' usage most are twirlies taking advantage of a cheap outbound journey pre 09:30 and use their card to return and to be fair £2 single Leeds to the coast who can blame them?
it is rumoured once the £2 flat fare finishes that in West Yorks there are a minimum of 50 routes (across all operators) under threat and many others that will operate 07:00 to 19:00 Monday - Saturday & little or nothing on sundays.
If we look at the 50 odd routes, specifically the First operated ones I can see that there would be quite a few in Calderdale being cut completely on Sundays - namely the 548 which runs only between Brighouse and Nunnery Lane on Sundays and that carries insufficient numbers, the 549 between Brighouse and Halifax which carries around a third of a bus full (varies each week when I've seen it, sometimes its been empty). This could be solved by simply withdrawing the 549 and instead extend the 586 (Halifax to Commons) through to Brighouse via the 548 route which would becomes a Brighouse to Commons service.

Then there's the Halifax to Rochdale/Burnley via the Calder Valley services 590/591/592 alongside the 579 to Sowerby, which I can imagine seeing the Sunday journeys on the four routes being withdrawn and being palmed off onto a new "593" and routing it via Sowerby Bridge as a partial replacement. The Sowerby to Sowerby Bridge section is covered by a heavily revised 577 by Transdev (read as every two hours, last bus at 6pm) and at the Todmorden end the replacement "593" would alternate between Rochdale one hour and Burnley the next. The 510/511/512/513 to Mixenden and the 521/522/523 to Illingworth could somehow be merged into a Sunday & public holiday only "North Halifax circular" by taking in bits of the 510/512 or whatever the route is up through Pellon and Mount Tabor and bolting that onto to the 522 to try and avoid cutting off the villages completely, this could run hourly but in alternate directions.

Maybe having a "Halifax Sunday network" whereby running simply five routes may be the best way to at least provide some sort of Sunday service, even if its every two hours. Where as in Huddersfield it would somewhat be one route serving the Colne Valley (read as 184 to Oldham), one route for the Holme Valley (more likely merging the 310 Hepworth and 314 Holme to become a "315" Huddersfield to Holme via Hepworth), the 503 to Halifax, the 363 to Bradford and the Uni bus to Storthes Hall - with the rest losing their Sunday service. In Leeds, it would be a lot more complex but I could imagine seeing the 64 to Aberford being withdrawn altogether.
 
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noddingdonkey

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Yep. If you want people to abandon the buses totally and get cars, that would be a perfect way to do it.
 

Ken H

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Yep. If you want people to abandon the buses totally and get cars, that would be a perfect way to do it.
But for how long can we carry fresh air around in double deckers with the odd passenger paying pennies?
The large town/city centres are dying. People are goIng to out of town shopping centres and smaller towns.
 

Seehof

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Other than the withdrawal of the Hospital Bus are there any other changes for First York from 1 April?
 

Kieran1990

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The splitting for the 51/52 is very welcome news, it really is so unreliable. Be interesting to see if they keep the same frequencies on the split routes.
 

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