First West Yorkshire & York discussion

[dodecahedron67]

So they're going tomorrow?

Yard say today is last day (2220 Rawcliffe last trip)
Ops say they'll be kept for about a month

Find out tomorrow morning like all of us haha

 

[YorkRailFan]

Yard say today is last day (2220 Rawcliffe last trip)
Ops say they'll be kept for about a month

Find out tomorrow morning like all of us haha

I won't be complaining if they stay on, seems like Ops also likes them.

 

[Whiteway215]

Yard say today is last day (2220 Rawcliffe last trip)
Ops say they'll be kept for about a month

Find out tomorrow morning like all of us haha

Is this a bad sign if BusTimes says the bendis aren’t tracking this morning?

 

[dodecahedron67]

Is this a bad sign if BusTimes says the bendis aren’t tracking this morning?

11101/3/4 are out on 2s. Bustimes isn’t tracking 2s or 59s since the changes

I’d get in trouble posting a ticketer screenshot here, just trust me on this one

I won't be complaining if they stay on, seems like Ops also likes them.

We love them don’t worry

 

[RELL6L]

We can now see the new timetable for the First 590/1/2 in BusTimes by putting in a future date from 19 February.
It's clever in a way but with negatives.

At the moment there is a cycle of 3hrs 30mins to both Rochdale or Burnley, running every 15 minutes that's 14 buses.
In the new timetable, between the peaks, the cycle is reduced to 3hrs 20mins (first red flag), thus requiring 10 buses, but two further ones add an extra hourly service between Rochdale and Todmorden. These are the same two with an inefficient looking 38 minutes in Todmorden, but no doubt drivers have breaks or redeploy elsewhere. So 12 buses in total.
In the peak hours the service goes up to every 15 minutes between Halifax and Todmorden, but - and here's the clever bit - only for about 2 hours (peak arrive and depart Halifax) of the 3hrs 20min cycle. So 8 vehicles in this 2 hours and 4 (every 20mins) in the remaining 1hr 20mins (roughly) equals still 12. No extra resources used in the peak hour frequency increase.
The compromise here is in the shoulder period west of Todmorden. Basically from 14.10 to 16.10 it is every 15 minutes heading east from Todmorden to Halifax to feed into the returns at the high peak period. So the one bph that turned round at Todmorden during the midday period now doesn't, therefore the westbound service has to make do with the three bph coming in from Halifax. In general this means every 40 minutes to each of Rochdale and Burnley but obviously there is a particular need for a Rochdale bus meaning no departure from Todmorden to Burnley between 14.16 and 15.16. Its roughly the same in the morning with buses every 40 minutes in part on each leg but with an unforgiveable gap from Burnley between 06.51 and 07.50 when the bus 'in between' actually starts from Todmorden at 7.59, not even coming from Portsmouth.

So the bad points, leaving aside the drop in off-peak frequency and halving of through buses to Rochdale: (1) less stand time each cycle = less resilience to delays; (2) longer gaps in the shoulder on each western leg, (3) one hour gaps to Burnley in each peak. Saves 2 vehicles.

Also bad, for no apparent reason, the timings on the western legs have essentially swapped, the Rochdale journeys are on the opposite quarter hours to now, so the 457 and 587 which fit between them between Rochdale and Littleborough now will not do as well. And on Monday to Thursday evenings the Burnley leg buses terminate at Hebden Bridge with no connection through to the hourly service to/from Halifax.

 

[YorkRailFan]

University of York services

C2 and CB1 route changes from Sunday 7th April On Sunday 7th April, we’re introducing some route changes to C2 and CB1 services as summarised below.

www.firstbus.co.uk

From Monday 5th February you'll be able to travel for free on the 66 & 67 within the campus zone specified below.
Campus shuttle services C1 and C2 will remain a free service.

To get free travel, you will need to tap on and tap off with a contactless card or device, however you won’t be charged when travelling between York Sport Village and The Retreat (66) or Green Dykes Lane (67).

For those without a contactless card or device, there's a choice. You can choose to pay £1.40 for travel on the 66 & 67 within the campus zone, or wait at the stop for a free ride on the C1 & C2 campus shuttle.

Other fares:

From anywhere within the campus zone to Heslington Road (for 66) or The Boulevard (for 67) will cost £1.40, regardless of payment method.
From anywhere within the campus zone to all other 66 and 67 stops will cost £2.00, regardless of payment method.
The change is being introduced to help you move around the campus quicker and easier.

The new network map will be available shortly.

Route maps from Monday 5th February
C1
A free service for University of York students.
Every 20 minutes during off peak (mornings and evenings) and up to every 10 minutes during peak (midday).


C2
A free service for University of York students.
Every 20 minutes during off peak (mornings and evenings) and up to every 10 minutes during peak (midday).


66
Free within the campus zone when you tap on and tap off the bus.

If you reside at Fairfax House you can travel for free on service 66 between The Retreat and the campus if you present a valid Fairfax House ID card.
If you're travelling to Heslington Road (without a Fairfax House ID card), you'll pay a £1.40 Single fare.

If you're travelling into the city centre from within the campus zone, you'll pay our max £2.00 Single fare.



67
Free within the campus zone when you tap on and tap off the bus.

If you're travelling to The Boulevard, you'll pay a £1.40 Single fare.

If you're travelling into the city centre from within the campus zone, you'll pay our max £2.00 Single fare.



CB1
Clubbers bus! Overnight service operating 7 days a week.

Get from the city centre to the University of York - operates from 00:10 and every 40 minutes until 4:10am.

£2.00 per trip.

Some very positive changes at First York, a lot of Uni students will be pleased. I did wish that First allowed one to get these free tickets on their app to make it more accessible to those who don't have contactless cards and can't wait for a free shuttle bus. Also great to see CB1 operating Overnight, that route will be particularly popular on Fridays and Saturdays.

 

[dodecahedron67]

University of York services

C2 and CB1 route changes from Sunday 7th April On Sunday 7th April, we’re introducing some route changes to C2 and CB1 services as summarised below.

www.firstbus.co.uk

Some very positive changes at First York, a lot of Uni students will be pleased. I did wish that First allowed one to get these free tickets on their app to make it more accessible to those who don't have contactless cards and can't wait for a free shuttle bus. Also great to see CB1 operating Overnight, that route will be particularly popular on Fridays and Saturdays.

Proud to be the one behind these changes. Reason it’s on TOTO is because we had problems with students going into town on the freebies when it was a ticket on the machine.

CB1 isn’t changing but is a v useful service - runs every 40 min, 0010-0410 term time only

 

[Deerfold]

University of York services

C2 and CB1 route changes from Sunday 7th April On Sunday 7th April, we’re introducing some route changes to C2 and CB1 services as summarised below.

www.firstbus.co.uk

Some very positive changes at First York, a lot of Uni students will be pleased. I did wish that First allowed one to get these free tickets on their app to make it more accessible to those who don't have contactless cards and can't wait for a free shuttle bus. Also great to see CB1 operating Overnight, that route will be particularly popular on Fridays and Saturdays.

Are there many students without a contactless card?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Are there many students without a contactless card?

No idea, but what about lecturers or staff?

Proud to be the one behind these changes. Reason it’s on TOTO is because we had problems with students going into town on the freebies when it was a ticket on the machine.

CB1 isn’t changing but is a v useful service - runs every 40 min, 0010-0410 term time only

Seems like the only solution would be to make CB1 more frequent for those who don't have Contactless Cards.

 

[dodecahedron67]

No idea, but what about lecturers or staff?


Seems like the only solution would be to make CB1 more frequent for those who don't have Contactless Cards.

Lecturers/staff tend to get 1 bus in from town in the morning, 1 bus out to town at the end of the day - not a lot of inter-campus travel for staff

No-one uses the CB1 for night travel on campus, it’s only purpose is getting people back to campus from town.

Edit: also to clarify, C1 is a free shuttle route from South to East Campus running every 15/30 peak/off-peak 0800-2200 M-F term time only, and CB1 is the nightbus running one direction Town > Campus only 0010-0410 every 40min M-Su Term time only

Numbering is slightly confusing I’ll concede - but we couldn’t exactly do “69” as a uni bus…

 

[YorkRailFan]

Numbering is slightly confusing I’ll concede - but we couldn’t exactly do “69” as a uni bus…

Or bring back the 66A number and then 66N for night services?

 

[Deerfold]

No idea, but what about lecturers or staff?

I'm nearly 50 and don't know of anyone my age without at least one contactless card. The only people I know without one retired a long time ago.

 

[TUC]

No idea, but what about lecturers or staff?

Contactless cards are issued as standard for bank accounts. Why would they not have one?

 

[GusB]

Some banks were slower to issue contactless cards than others, particularly with the more basic bank accounts; I can attest to this personally. It is reasonable to assume that there are still some non-contactless cards out there; my previous card was dated until some time in 2025 and I'd still be using it if I hadn't had to get it replaced. It may be possible to gain contactless functionality by using Google Wallet or similar, but not everyone has this option.

However, this is a side issue and I would suggest that if anyone wishes to talk about it further, please take it to General Discussion. Let's get back to discussing First West Yorkshire!

 

[Whisky Papa]

We can now see the new timetable for the First 590/1/2 in BusTimes by putting in a future date from 19 February.
It's clever in a way but with negatives.

At the moment there is a cycle of 3hrs 30mins to both Rochdale or Burnley, running every 15 minutes that's 14 buses.
In the new timetable, between the peaks, the cycle is reduced to 3hrs 20mins (first red flag), thus requiring 10 buses, but two further ones add an extra hourly service between Rochdale and Todmorden. These are the same two with an inefficient looking 38 minutes in Todmorden, but no doubt drivers have breaks or redeploy elsewhere. So 12 buses in total.
In the peak hours the service goes up to every 15 minutes between Halifax and Todmorden, but - and here's the clever bit - only for about 2 hours (peak arrive and depart Halifax) of the 3hrs 20min cycle. So 8 vehicles in this 2 hours and 4 (every 20mins) in the remaining 1hr 20mins (roughly) equals still 12. No extra resources used in the peak hour frequency increase.
The compromise here is in the shoulder period west of Todmorden. Basically from 14.10 to 16.10 it is every 15 minutes heading east from Todmorden to Halifax to feed into the returns at the high peak period. So the one bph that turned round at Todmorden during the midday period now doesn't, therefore the westbound service has to make do with the three bph coming in from Halifax. In general this means every 40 minutes to each of Rochdale and Burnley but obviously there is a particular need for a Rochdale bus meaning no departure from Todmorden to Burnley between 14.16 and 15.16. Its roughly the same in the morning with buses every 40 minutes in part on each leg but with an unforgiveable gap from Burnley between 06.51 and 07.50 when the bus 'in between' actually starts from Todmorden at 7.59, not even coming from Portsmouth.

So the bad points, leaving aside the drop in off-peak frequency and halving of through buses to Rochdale: (1) less stand time each cycle = less resilience to delays; (2) longer gaps in the shoulder on each western leg, (3) one hour gaps to Burnley in each peak. Saves 2 vehicles.

Also bad, for no apparent reason, the timings on the western legs have essentially swapped, the Rochdale journeys are on the opposite quarter hours to now, so the 457 and 587 which fit between them between Rochdale and Littleborough now will not do as well. And on Monday to Thursday evenings the Burnley leg buses terminate at Hebden Bridge with no connection through to the hourly service to/from Halifax.

Thanks for sharing that, @RELL6L, (I have been patiently waiting for the details to appear on either the Metro or First's website) and your analysis.

One thing I noticed on the Mon-Thu evening timetable is that despite a 592 from Burnley terminating at Hebden Bridge at 2248, there is no 2256 westbound departure, which would be expected to form the final service as far as Portsmouth departing Todmorden at 2317, only slightly later than now. Instead, there is an hour gap from Hebden Bridge until the 2326 (2255 ex Halifax) pushing the final departure from Todmorden to Porstmouth to 2347, after a 90 minute gap. On Sundays, however, the expected 2256 from Hebden does run through to Portsmouth (and there is no 2326!).

We can't see the Friday / Saturday timetables just yet, but after years of having (basically) consistent daily evening services, I'm sure this revision will cause a considerable amount of confusion, particularly amongst those who don't rely on apps to work out when the next bus is.

 

[Seehof]

First York: According to my calculations all but one EV is in service. I understand the need to keep some diesels but they still have 21. Do they really still need this many or are the EVs so unreliable they need so many diesels just in case? Thanks

 

[Fin447]

First York: According to my calculations all but one EV is in service. I understand the need to keep some diesels but they still have 21. Do they really still need this many or are the EVs so unreliable they need so many diesels just in case? Thanks

Chargers aren't running at full capacity yet, March is when they'll be ready apparently

 

[dodecahedron67]

Chargers aren't running at full capacity yet, March is when they'll be ready apparently

As above. 4x streetdecks to stoke next to go, B7s last to leave in March

 

[NorthernSpirit]

We can now see the new timetable for the First 590/1/2 in BusTimes by putting in a future date from 19 February.
It's clever in a way but with negatives.

At the moment there is a cycle of 3hrs 30mins to both Rochdale or Burnley, running every 15 minutes that's 14 buses.
In the new timetable, between the peaks, the cycle is reduced to 3hrs 20mins (first red flag), thus requiring 10 buses, but two further ones add an extra hourly service between Rochdale and Todmorden. These are the same two with an inefficient looking 38 minutes in Todmorden, but no doubt drivers have breaks or redeploy elsewhere. So 12 buses in total.
In the peak hours the service goes up to every 15 minutes between Halifax and Todmorden, but - and here's the clever bit - only for about 2 hours (peak arrive and depart Halifax) of the 3hrs 20min cycle. So 8 vehicles in this 2 hours and 4 (every 20mins) in the remaining 1hr 20mins (roughly) equals still 12. No extra resources used in the peak hour frequency increase.
The compromise here is in the shoulder period west of Todmorden. Basically from 14.10 to 16.10 it is every 15 minutes heading east from Todmorden to Halifax to feed into the returns at the high peak period. So the one bph that turned round at Todmorden during the midday period now doesn't, therefore the westbound service has to make do with the three bph coming in from Halifax. In general this means every 40 minutes to each of Rochdale and Burnley but obviously there is a particular need for a Rochdale bus meaning no departure from Todmorden to Burnley between 14.16 and 15.16. Its roughly the same in the morning with buses every 40 minutes in part on each leg but with an unforgiveable gap from Burnley between 06.51 and 07.50 when the bus 'in between' actually starts from Todmorden at 7.59, not even coming from Portsmouth.

So the bad points, leaving aside the drop in off-peak frequency and halving of through buses to Rochdale: (1) less stand time each cycle = less resilience to delays; (2) longer gaps in the shoulder on each western leg, (3) one hour gaps to Burnley in each peak. Saves 2 vehicles.

Also bad, for no apparent reason, the timings on the western legs have essentially swapped, the Rochdale journeys are on the opposite quarter hours to now, so the 457 and 587 which fit between them between Rochdale and Littleborough now will not do as well. And on Monday to Thursday evenings the Burnley leg buses terminate at Hebden Bridge with no connection through to the hourly service to/from Halifax.

From what I gather, Millwood outstation (Todmorden) is taking on the full 590/591/592 leaving Skircoat with pretty much everything else excluding the 549 which will be operated by Old Fieldhouse Lane. Looking at the new times for the Upper Calder Valley, I still cannot fathom out as to why it takes 35 minutes from Haliax to Hebden Bridge when I look at an old timetable from 2019 it only takes 30 minutes. Maybe cutting out King Cross may actually help with the timings and leave King Cross to be serviced by the 579 (Sowerby) and the 586 (Rishworth Commons) instead.

 

[M60lad]

Speaking of Kings Cross is there a reason why First don't use Kings Cross anymore going towards Halifax but Team Pennine do on their 587s?

 

[toffeedanish]

Speaking of Kings Cross is there a reason why First don't use Kings Cross anymore going towards Halifax but Team Pennine do on their 587s?

First believe that recent changes to the road layout will result in problems for buses if they operate in both directions, either with parked vehicles or passing each other. Team Pennine seem to operate both ways with no issues.

If First buses went through King Cross on their way into Halifax and used Aachen Way outbound instead of the other way round as at present, it would prevent delays incurred crossing the stream of traffic at the big junction western end.

 

[JRT]

Speaking of Kings Cross is there a reason why First don't use Kings Cross anymore going towards Halifax but Team Pennine do on their 587s?

Something to do with the new road layout, Team Pennine use smaller buses so there's maybe no problem for them

 

[mic]

transfer sees 69368 move from York to Huddersfield

first huddersfield 69368 YJ08XYG

recent transfer from york, seen in golcar

www.flickr.com

 

[RELL6L]

From what I gather, Millwood outstation (Todmorden) is taking on the full 590/591/592 leaving Skircoat with pretty much everything else excluding the 549 which will be operated by Old Fieldhouse Lane. Looking at the new times for the Upper Calder Valley, I still cannot fathom out as to why it takes 35 minutes from Haliax to Hebden Bridge when I look at an old timetable from 2019 it only takes 30 minutes. Maybe cutting out King Cross may actually help with the timings and leave King Cross to be serviced by the 579 (Sowerby) and the 586 (Rishworth Commons) instead.

Yes, the timetable implies it will be 100% operated from Todmorden. That's ambitious given that all the buses are out all day. I assume buses will be swapped out at Halifax for maintenance etc during the day. Does Todmorden have fuelling facilities and does it carry out any maintenance? I hope there is some 'comfort' in the running times given that the round circuit has been reduced by 10 minutes.

 

[Andyh82]

Yes, the timetable implies it will be 100% operated from Todmorden. That's ambitious given that all the buses are out all day. I assume buses will be swapped out at Halifax for maintenance etc during the day. Does Todmorden have fuelling facilities and does it carry out any maintenance? I hope there is some 'comfort' in the running times given that the round circuit has been reduced by 10 minutes.

Halifax only have 2 boards at the moment so it’s not too big a change

Yes Todmorden does have fuelling facilities

 

[Whisky Papa]

From what I gather, Millwood outstation (Todmorden) is taking on the full 590/591/592 leaving Skircoat with pretty much everything else excluding the 549 which will be operated by Old Fieldhouse Lane. Looking at the new times for the Upper Calder Valley, I still cannot fathom out as to why it takes 35 minutes from Haliax to Hebden Bridge when I look at an old timetable from 2019 it only takes 30 minutes. Maybe cutting out King Cross may actually help with the timings and leave King Cross to be serviced by the 579 (Sowerby) and the 586 (Rishworth Commons) instead.

We were given 35 minutes from Halifax Bus Station to Hebden Bridge during the day when I was driving (1989-2003), reducing to 30 minutes evenings and Sundays. In fairness, most of the day the 35 minutes was slightly excessive, with waits for time at Luddendenfoot and Mytholmroyd being the norm, but it gave a bit of slack in case of any problems.

The current timetable also has 35 minutes, I notice. Was the 2019 timetable you mention at the time we still had a ten minute headway through to Todmorden? Not that is entirely an excuse for reducing running times but it may have been part of the justification, by having the loadings split onto more buses.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I think it would be extremely tight to get a full size single or double decker round the narrow double dogleg from Commercial Street into Crown Street via Albert Street in Hebden Bridge. Probably better to run through the town to the turning circle for Heptonstall and take in a few more stops.

I've had a look at an old 2017 timetable which shows a few Sunday extras that ran between Halifax and Hebden, these it seem ran via Burnley Road, Commercial Street, Crown Street and left into New Road before heading back to Halifax.

I can see what you mean by having it running to what's known as Mythom turning circle especially when you've got the market overspilling into Crown Street and parked cars.

We were given 35 minutes from Halifax Bus Station to Hebden Bridge during the day when I was driving (1989-2003), reducing to 30 minutes evenings and Sundays. In fairness, most of the day the 35 minutes was slightly excessive, with waits for time at Luddendenfoot and Mytholmroyd being the norm, but it gave a bit of slack in case of any problems.

The current timetable also has 35 minutes, I notice. Was the 2019 timetable you mention at the time we still had a ten minute headway through to Todmorden? Not that is entirely an excuse for reducing running times but it may have been part of the justification, by having the loadings split onto more buses.

Yes.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Some York fleet updates:

Versas are currently undergoing yet another battery change - another £200,000 per bus there…

Of the remaining B7s, 2 of the YJ57 YSX or YJ08 ZGX plates (tbc which ones) are to become new Euro 6 training vehicles with 69001/2 YK54 plates retired. These B7s will have fuel cards and be refuelled from petrol stations

The bendys will 99% be the last remaining diesels in frontline service in York

 

[Fin447]

Some York fleet updates:

Versas are currently undergoing yet another battery change - another £200,000 per bus there…

Of the remaining B7s, 2 of the YJ57 YSX or YJ08 ZGX plates (tbc which ones) are to become new Euro 6 training vehicles with 69001/2 YK54 plates retired. These B7s will have fuel cards and be refuelled from petrol stations

The bendys will 99% be the last remaining diesels in frontline service in York

Bet they wish they'd just scrapped them now

 

[JD2168]

Some York fleet updates:

Versas are currently undergoing yet another battery change - another £200,000 per bus there…

Of the remaining B7s, 2 of the YJ57 YSX or YJ08 ZGX plates (tbc which ones) are to become new Euro 6 training vehicles with 69001/2 YK54 plates retired. These B7s will have fuel cards and be refuelled from petrol stations

The bendys will 99% be the last remaining diesels in frontline service in York

At this rate it might have been cheaper to replace the Versa’s with more Kite’s.