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First Group: General Discussion

freetoview33

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Spot on. James has never been afraid to take risks. As the man behind the Provincial ESOP back in the 80s, he has a track record of innovation and blue sky thinking.

Metrobus hasn't been a total success and has abstracted footfall from the existing network, which with hindsight could have been cut back more, but no doubt the LA were against this in case it went wrong (in my experience LAs are very risk averse). Hopefully the LA will press on with more bus priority because the traffic is worse than many similar sized cities.

He will be missed, but the team there seems stable, and I expect them to progress in years to come.
Certainly the metrobus services were not thought about in the context of how they would effect the existing network but also it wasn't just easy to cut services either as there would have been plenty of areas without a service. (Or a much longer walk to a metrobus stop)
 
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Goldfish62

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Since the Governments of each part of the UK have promised to pay the bus companies, I take it the next set of accounts for everyone will result in cost neutral over all IE no profit but no losses either?
No, that's not how it works. The government will, through Coronavirus Bus Service Support Grant (CBSSG), make up lost revenue on registered local bus services compared with that expected up to a maximum payment of £1 per km operated. The theory is that revenue for the year should be no better or no worse than if Covid hadn't happened, thus if the company was going a loss anyway, it should still make the same projected loss, and the same for profit.

However, the GoAhead OpCo's accounts to the end of June 2020 have been published and include three months of CBSSG payments. Oxford Bus Company has made a significant loss for the year, after making a healthy profit the previous year and they state that this is due to CBSSG being insufficient to make up for the lost revenue from passengers.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Metrobus hasn't been a total success and has abstracted footfall from the existing network, which with hindsight could have been cut back more, but no doubt the LA were against this in case it went wrong (in my experience LAs are very risk averse). Hopefully the LA will press on with more bus priority because the traffic is worse than many similar sized cities.

He will be missed, but the team there seems stable, and I expect them to progress in years to come.

Certainly the metrobus services were not thought about in the context of how they would effect the existing network but also it wasn't just easy to cut services either as there would have been plenty of areas without a service. (Or a much longer walk to a metrobus stop)
The comment in the accounts was quite telling; certainly the provision in South Bristol didn't change as much as was expected.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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What was the exact comment?
In the published accounts it says "Operating profit decreased from £5.4million to £2.2million despite the increase in turnover. The main driver of this was increased operating costs to generate sufficient capacity to cope with the additional demand and the launch of the new metrobus m1 service, which commenced in January 2019. This has led to significant levels of passenger attrition from existing services onto the new service which has reduced the profitability of these routes as we have not been able to reduce our cost base on them by similar proportions." (my bold)
 

freetoview33

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In the published accounts it says "Operating profit decreased from £5.4million to £2.2million despite the increase in turnover. The main driver of this was increased operating costs to generate sufficient capacity to cope with the additional demand and the launch of the new metrobus m1 service, which commenced in January 2019. This has led to significant levels of passenger attrition from existing services onto the new service which has reduced the profitability of these routes as we have not been able to reduce our cost base on them by similar proportions." (my bold)
Ah that makes sense. I think if anything it shows poor local authority planning. Than anything bad on Firsts part
 

317 forever

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Worcester already had quite an old fleet including second-hand purchases. Now it seems to have become a dumping ground so that its newer buses can assist at Leicester and Slough, as newer buses are needed for local Leicester routes and routes into Heathrow & Uxbridge.
 

Robertj21a

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Worcester already had quite an old fleet including second-hand purchases. Now it seems to have become a dumping ground so that its newer buses can assist at Leicester and Slough, as newer buses are needed for local Leicester routes and routes into Heathrow & Uxbridge.
What has Worcester lost for Heathrow & Uxbridge services?

As far as I know, Citaros from Slough have gone to Worcester so that Streetlites can go to Leicester. What went to Slough?
 

Goldfish62

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What has Worcester lost for Heathrow & Uxbridge services?

As far as I know, Citaros from Slough have gone to Worcester so that Streetlites can go to Leicester. What went to Slough?
Volvo B7RLEs from Southampton, I believe.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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What has Worcester lost for Heathrow & Uxbridge services?

As far as I know, Citaros from Slough have gone to Worcester so that Streetlites can go to Leicester. What went to Slough?
I was wondering the same. AFAIK, Slough received some ex Southampton Eclipses (via a short Weymuff sojourn) to release the Citaros to Worcester to release the StreetLites to Leicester.

Worcester does have a rather mature fleet as a consequence with just a few short Streetlites and the Streetdecks representing modern stuff
 

richw

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Since the Governments of each part of the UK have promised to pay the bus companies, I take it the next set of accounts for everyone will result in cost neutral over all IE no profit but no losses either?

Nice to see Midland Bluebird making a small profit, but nearly £4million loses at the Livingston Depot, I dread to think what the other side is losing as well.. I cant see this going on much longer.
Only on the commercials registered service parts of the business was my understanding. Tendered parts are subject to local authority support adjustments, is how it was explained to me.
Other parts of the operation can also still make loss or profit. Take first southwest with their dividends from SPS or their successful private hire side of the business that has remained quite busy through Covid.
 

cnjb8

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Worcester already had quite an old fleet including second-hand purchases. Now it seems to have become a dumping ground so that its newer buses can assist at Leicester and Slough, as newer buses are needed for local Leicester routes and routes into Heathrow & Uxbridge.
Given that an emission zone was incoming for Leicester and the Heathrow area, I think moving the Citaros to Worcester was a good idea l, especially with Covid. Citaros are not that bad from a passenger perspective and the Euro 6 buses are needed elsewhere. At the moment you can't expect to throw investment at every depot
 

Goldfish62

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Only on the commercials registered service parts of the business was my understanding. Tendered parts are subject to local authority support adjustments, is how it was explained to me.
Other parts of the operation can also still make loss or profit. Take first southwest with their dividends from SPS or their successful private hire side of the business that has remained quite busy through Covid.
Yes, it only applies to commercial registered local bus services. And even then break-even is not guaranteed because CBBSG pays a maximum of £1 per km operated and on high revenue routes this may not be enough to cover costs. So we shouldn't automatically expect break-even in the next sets of accounts. I predict that some operators that principally rely on local bus services will report quite hefty losses.

But we'll have to wait the best part of a year yet to find out.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I think the B7RLEs left Southampton a while back, Southampton has been an all Streetlite fleet.
As I mentioned on #11470, the Eclipses now at Slough were released from Southampton and had a spell in Weymouth to enable social distancing. They were then replaced there by Omnicities allowing them to be cascaded to Slough.

Note: other Southampton Eclipses headed to Scotland instead.

Given that an emission zone was incoming for Leicester and the Heathrow area, I think moving the Citaros to Worcester was a good idea l, especially with Covid. Citaros are not that bad from a passenger perspective and the Euro 6 buses are needed elsewhere. At the moment you can't expect to throw investment at every depot
Exactly this. There are a great number of LEZs and CAZs either in place or imminent. What that means is that you will have operators using a blend of new vehicles, moving vehicles about or undertaking mods to achieve compliance. These are fairly complex moves and have been some years in gestation.

In Bath, whose CAZ went live two weeks ago, they prepared by
  • Purchasing new Solos a few years ago to replace those
  • Acquired e400s and B9s from places like Bolton and Leeds that can be upgraded
    • They are also awaiting some B9s from Aberdeen that have been released following receipt of new Hydrogen Streetdecks there
  • Acquiring some dodgy Streetdecks from Sheffield
  • Repowering e400Hs to euro VI
This has allowed the replacement of the old Solos, B7TLs and B7RLEs.
 
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47550

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I was just having a wander through the First Manchester Ltd statutory accounts that were filed recently. The accounts make reference to the expectation of selling a further part of the business, one that had a provision made for an onerous contract. The only thing I can think of is Vantage - anyone else have any ideas ?
 

ScotGG

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Norwich has some old buses doesn't it? Surprised to see 20 year old buses from 2001 still on the major Network Norwich routes. Are they due for replacement?
 

cnjb8

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Norwich has some old buses doesn't it? Surprised to see 20 year old buses from 2001 still on the major Network Norwich routes. Are they due for replacement?
Probably not, the LR02 batch of Tridents are getting refurbs!
 

DragonEast

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Norwich has some old buses doesn't it? Surprised to see 20 year old buses from 2001 still on the major Network Norwich routes. Are they due for replacement?
I too suspect refurbs, and why not?

But I suspect it depends on the Norfolk Councils, but at least they are starting to make the right sort of noises. And maybe more importantly the electoral calculation might be in favour?
Though there is intense competition for the Government cash fountain, but hope springs eternal, so they say
 

Surreyman

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I would imagine that First will be liaising with 'local authorities' in putting together a number of bids for 'ZEBRA' bus funding, "up to 500 buses for England."
My money would be on York, Leeds, Leicester, Norwich, Bristol, Bath, Slough & Southampton.
Priority areas would have high 'DAQs' (no of days where air quality exceeds limits), dense urban networks, currently profitable operations and suitable depot/parking space for infrastructure.
 

aswilliamsuk

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The branded Presidents in Norwich received emissions upgrades a couple of years ago to bring them up to Euro 6 standard, so they've likely got another year or two in service. It's why they've been repainted fairly recently. The ones in Olympia and Barbie are on borrowed time though.
Norwich gained £32million from the transforming cities fund late last year (https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/local-...schemes-to-get-cash-for-norwich-roads-3388008), and First Eastern Counties pledged £18 million of investment to come as "match funding", it seems.

So no doubt there will be new buses coming in the next couple of years.
 

cnjb8

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Norwich gained £32million from the transforming cities fund late last year (https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/local-...schemes-to-get-cash-for-norwich-roads-3388008), and First Eastern Counties pledged £18 million of investment to come as "match funding", it seems.

So no doubt there will be new buses coming in the next couple of years.
Surely Covid must have put doubt into that £18 million investment. Hopefully Norwich will see those new buses though, they certainly need it!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The fleet investment was just announced a few months ago.
I was going to point to that. I'd suggest that there's the likelihood that the 51 plates and a number of other vehicles will be dispatched soon enough. The ones getting repainted, albeit surprisingly, will be the ones that hang around for the next couple of years.
 

Goldfish62

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Surely Covid must have put doubt into that £18 million investment. Hopefully Norwich will see those new buses though, they certainly need it!
They've committed £18m match funding. They can't just pull out unless there's collective agreement by all parties to scrap the entire scheme.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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They've committed £18m match funding. They can't just pull out unless there's collective agreement by all parties to scrap the entire scheme.
Indeed, and the enhanced partnership model is the one that First would (naturally) like to pursue. Not least as they get a load of bus priority that will benefit their services. So a number of new vehicles (which are really overdue - don't think they've had new vehicles for anything other than excel since 2016) and refurbs will certain help deliver that. I'd draw attention to First Bristol's CNG fleet that took about 2.5 years from award to delivery so repainting some Tridents is probably an indication on possible timelines!

In unrelated news but worthy of discussion on this thread....what has happened to First Cymru. Under Andrew Sherrington, they began a programme of fleet refurbishments and repaints with Eclipses and Geminis, but that seems to have stopped. Is this just a reflection on the Covid support as managed in Wales (that I confess, I'm not au fait with)?
 

NorthernSpirit

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Except for Halifax and Huddersfield where buses are actively being repainted out of local schemes back into Olympia!
This is what I don't understand, why repaint them back into Olympia? Why not a local scheme for example Halifax could easily be repainted into a refreshed yellow/white/blue (Glasgow style) "Calderline mk2", with the Olympia style fleetname HALIFAX in light blue stuck to the sides. Meanwhile with Huddersfield, First needs to get rid of the failed "HD Connect" brand which didn't go anywhere and replace that with a red/cream/green livery (just not as bad as Kingfisher Huddersfield was) with again, the Olympia style fleetname HUDDERSFIELD being in light green. It'd stand out plus it'd make it appear that both Halifax and Huddersfield has been given a nice new fleet of buses, when in fact they've just been tarted up.

The same could go for Bradford with a blue/red/blue livery, its basic and straight to the point and screams investment but I cannot see it ever happening especially with Leeds being the golden goose and elsewhere in West Yorkshire gets nowt despite sharing the same manager director.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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This is what I don't understand, why repaint them back into Olympia? Why not a local scheme for example Halifax could easily be repainted into a refreshed yellow/white/blue (Glasgow style) "Calderline mk2", with the Olympia style fleetname HALIFAX in light blue stuck to the sides. Meanwhile with Huddersfield, First needs to get rid of the failed "HD Connect" brand which didn't go anywhere and replace that with a red/cream/green livery (just not as bad as Kingfisher Huddersfield was) with again, the Olympia style fleetname HUDDERSFIELD being in light green. It'd stand out plus it'd make it appear that both Halifax and Huddersfield has been given a nice new fleet of buses, when in fact they've just been tarted up.

The same could go for Bradford with a blue/red/blue livery, its basic and straight to the point and screams investment but I cannot see it ever happening especially with Leeds being the golden goose and elsewhere in West Yorkshire gets nowt despite sharing the same manager director.
Probably because they have a pool of similarly liveried vehicles for Bradford, Huddersfield and Halifax for operational convenience (whilst Leeds has its own fleet to meet emissions/investment commitments) - I don't think it's right but it is probably the reason. Whilst I would like to see something more localised, I'm not convinced a harking back to Bradford Traveller is the way forward.
 

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