First Group: General Discussion

[In Focus]

My humble Apologies, that's what happens when our having a.quick look at forum at lay over point ,suffice to say this information was from 5/6 years ago ,it would.appear to be I better financial footing nowadays with all that new stock and multiple 're paints at what 5k a time, again old figures for 're paints

The repaints are done in house at Caledonia so I don't think it will cost anywhere near 5k a pop , speaking of which another few arrived in in Livingston in late last week 63251 and another along with another few darts so it seems it's all systems go for The upcoming changes .

 

[winston270twm]

My humble Apologies, that's what happens when our having a.quick look at forum at lay over point ,suffice to say this information was from 5/6 years ago ,it would.appear to be I better financial footing nowadays with all that new stock and multiple 're paints at what 5k a time, again old figures for 're paints

Not a problem, you wouldn't have seen the Dean Finch comment still anyway, as it was from a month or two back regarding NX Group potential interest in buying parts of First UK bus.

Indeed - some will have come in as opportunists. Some will have their own governance issues should they exit with a thumping loss.

One bit of good news will be the maturing of another bond this next year though, to be fair, it's not the crippling high level as the one that was dealt with this year but should still deliver a benefit in terms of lower finance costs.

It will all help, along with crude oil prices tanking lately thus allow FGP to hedge fuel at lower levels for future years requirements.

The main issue they need to address, is where any divisions improve their profit contribution / margins, they're not then cancelled by another division deteriorating. If the market / shareholders can some sustained improvement in the right direction, it might buy MG more time.

​

 

[Driver362]

That was a figure given to me some time back but as each depot runs there own accounts, they may be painted (im house) but I doubt fig would be giving out free paint jobs with there materials etc to fse but I stand corrected ? The amount of different paint schemes fse have gotten through this last while Caledonia must have deep pockets ! Maybe OTW can shed some light on it ?

 

[Observer]

Caledonia does all the repaints now, Larbert used to do some but that stopped years ago, it seemed they were having some trouble with one of the liveries as there were always some botched jobs getting sent out.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

First Potteries fares to increase at SEVEN TIMES the rate of inflation from 9 December. Network Day ticket rises from £6 to £7 which is a 16.67% increase. Inflation last month was 2.4%. That's the CPI rate, the governments preferred measure, and the one to which many 'cost of living' increases are tied to.

Basically stuff you passengers, we are writing the worlds longest ever suicide note.

This comes on top of another round of service cuts in January 2019 and a service ending very early on Christmas Eve - at around 1700 in many cases. Well before the shops will close.

Festive cheer is clearly in short supply in Eggleton Towers.

 

[overthewater]

Does Stoke have shops?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Does Stoke have shops?

Naughty.

Of course it does.

Pound shops at the top of the tree, then there's the 90p shops, the 80p shops and so on until you get to food banks where it all comes free!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not wishing to raise the hoary old chestnut of First Group annual orders and investments unwontedly, but interested to get a handle on the new buses for 2019. From this forum and other sources, think these are the ones that are largely confirmed....

• First West of England - unspecified number of CNG powered e400s for use in Bristol?
• First Kernow - 14 x Optare Solos (5 x full length) for the A17 in Penzance, and short ones for the Roseland/Lizard routes
• First Glasgow - 75 additional vehicles (mainly e400)
• First Hampshire - c.20 x e200mmc (?) for Star services in Portsmouth
• First Berkshire - 8-10? x Scania coaches for RailAir

Anyone able to confirm the above or more?

 

[goldisgood]

Not wishing to raise the hoary old chestnut of First Group annual orders and investments unwontedly, but interested to get a handle on the new buses for 2019. From this forum and other sources, think these are the ones that are largely confirmed....

• First West of England - unspecified number of CNG powered e400s for use in Bristol?
• First Kernow - 14 x Optare Solos (5 x full length) for the A17 in Penzance, and short ones for the Roseland/Lizard routes
• First Glasgow - 75 additional vehicles (mainly e400)
• First Hampshire - c.20 x e200mmc (?) for Star services in Portsmouth
• First Berkshire - 8-10? x Scania coaches for RailAir

Anyone able to confirm the above or more?

Leeds Streetdecks?

 

[KendalKing]

Not wishing to raise the hoary old chestnut of First Group annual orders and investments unwontedly, but interested to get a handle on the new buses for 2019. From this forum and other sources, think these are the ones that are largely confirmed....

• First West of England - unspecified number of CNG powered e400s for use in Bristol?
• First Kernow - 14 x Optare Solos (5 x full length) for the A17 in Penzance, and short ones for the Roseland/Lizard routes
• First Glasgow - 75 additional vehicles (mainly e400)
• First Hampshire - c.20 x e200mmc (?) for Star services in Portsmouth
• First Berkshire - 8-10? x Scania coaches for RailAir

Anyone able to confirm the above or more?

It was widely reported through-out 2016, that there would be 110 Gas Buses running in Bristol by Spring 2019!, Unfotunately, it looks like this target will be missed. There is currently about 20 Gas Buses, parked-up at ADL Falkirk factory, which painted in Metrobus livery, it is unclear if these are for First or CT Plus.

It is believed that First Kernow are due some more Enviro 200MMC's & 400MMC's, as well as the Optare Solo's (mention above).

The Scania Coaches for Railair, are currently in delivery.

 

[KendalKing]

Leeds Streetdecks?

There another 48 due to be delivered in January.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Not wishing to raise the hoary old chestnut of First Group annual orders and investments unwontedly, but interested to get a handle on the new buses for 2019. From this forum and other sources, think these are the ones that are largely confirmed....

• First West of England - unspecified number of CNG powered e400s for use in Bristol?
• First Kernow - 14 x Optare Solos (5 x full length) for the A17 in Penzance, and short ones for the Roseland/Lizard routes
• First Glasgow - 75 additional vehicles (mainly e400)
• First Hampshire - c.20 x e200mmc (?) for Star services in Portsmouth
• First Berkshire - 8-10? x Scania coaches for RailAir

Anyone able to confirm the above or more?

First Aberdeen are getting 10 Hydrogen powered Wright Streetdeck FCEVs part funded through the JIVE project.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Aircoach are due 8x B11R / Plaxton Panther 3 coaches in January.

 

[Volvodart]

It was widely reported through-out 2016, that there would be 110 Gas Buses running in Bristol by Spring 2019!, Unfotunately, it looks like this target will be missed. There is currently about 20 Gas Buses, parked-up at ADL Falkirk factory, which painted in Metrobus livery, it is unclear if these are for First or CT Plus.

The are City gas buses (?39) supposedly coming sometime in 2019 for Bristol services.

 

[Pokelet]

First Potteries fares to increase at SEVEN TIMES the rate of inflation from 9 December. Network Day ticket rises from £6 to £7 which is a 16.67% increase. Inflation last month was 2.4%. That's the CPI rate, the governments preferred measure, and the one to which many 'cost of living' increases are tied to.

Basically stuff you passengers, we are writing the worlds longest ever suicide note.

This comes on top of another round of service cuts in January 2019 and a service ending very early on Christmas Eve - at around 1700 in many cases. Well before the shops will close.

Festive cheer is clearly in short supply in Eggleton Towers.

Wow that's some hike! For this the traveling public will have Worcester's remaining E300's that are being displaced by Citaros and although they have had cosmetic refresh some are older than the stock being traded out.

 

[Robertj21a]

Wow that's some hike! For this the traveling public will have Worcester's remaining E300's that are being displaced by Citaros and although they have had cosmetic refresh some are older than the stock being traded out.

At least the operator is slowly getting back to a more sustainable position financially. The alternative was gradual disappearance, with few takers who want to cover much at all.

 

[Pokelet]

At least the operator is slowly getting back to a more sustainable position financially. The alternative was gradual disappearance, with few takers who want to cover much at all.

No I agree. It is good to see investment, however First in Worcestershire have been dwindling for years, not helped by the council cuts, terrible traffic and then the loop of doom whereby a service is cut so car usage goes up, locals/local councilors are up in arms (local paper gets involved) a ''token" service is introduced with the councilor's looking smug that they've got the bus back 'on a 6 month trial so use it or loose it'. 6 mints later you've had an empty bus carting fresh air around and the cycle starts again...

Worcester has seen a raft of new Street lite/max/decks in the past few years (personally not a fan of these) and now an influx of cascades from other company groups albeit second hand but refurbished to a high standard.

One does wonder though just how much turd glitter they have left.

 

[Robertj21a]

No I agree. It is good to see investment, however First in Worcestershire have been dwindling for years, not helped by the council cuts, terrible traffic and then the loop of doom whereby a service is cut so car usage goes up, locals/local councilors are up in arms (local paper gets involved) a ''token" service is introduced with the councilor's looking smug that they've got the bus back 'on a 6 month trial so use it or loose it'. 6 mints later you've had an empty bus carting fresh air around and the cycle starts again...

Worcester has seen a raft of new Street lite/max/decks in the past few years (personally not a fan of these) and now an influx of cascades from other company groups albeit second hand but refurbished to a high standard.

One does wonder though just how much turd glitter they have left.

Unfortunately, there's no real solution to the massive traffic problem in Worcester
I don't see how any operator will thrive until that is sorted out (never ?).

.

 

[Pokelet]

Worcester needs a fully completed ring road, a second river crossing in the town, improvements to the current giratory systems, traffic lights and ped crossings that talk to their neighbours in the giratory and a few zebra crossings converted to lights. It was crazy to close the P&R however any traffic coming from the west to go north has to go through the town. Hopefully when the southern link is complete it will help the flow but won't help the town centre.

Diamond tried to compete many years ago, they turned tail and left pretty sharpish.

First are stuck between a rock and a hard place but are sat on several acres of prime city centre land

 

[overthewater]

Maybe there should force everyone onto the buses and improve the network, that alone would solve the traffic problems.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It was widely reported through-out 2016, that there would be 110 Gas Buses running in Bristol by Spring 2019!, Unfotunately, it looks like this target will be missed. There is currently about 20 Gas Buses, parked-up at ADL Falkirk factory, which painted in Metrobus livery, it is unclear if these are for First or CT Plus.

It is believed that First Kernow are due some more Enviro 200MMC's & 400MMC's, as well as the Optare Solo's (mention above).

The Scania Coaches for Railair, are currently in delivery.

First Aberdeen are getting 10 Hydrogen powered Wright Streetdeck FCEVs part funded through the JIVE project.

Aircoach are due 8x B11R / Plaxton Panther 3 coaches in January.

The are City gas buses (?39) supposedly coming sometime in 2019 for Bristol services.

Thanks chaps - I'd rather stupidly forgotten about the squadrons of Streetdecks arriving in Leeds and another 48 is a sizeable batch. That will allow cascading with various B7s and B9s heading around FWY and, I assume, more of the 2012 B9s heading elsewhere; there are five on load in Bristol that I'd not be shocked to see head elsewhere.

Not certain what the score is with Bristol. CT Plus are in the process of getting CNG e400city deckers (though not left Falkirk yet) but whether they are in any way owned by First or are part of the 110 supported by the Green Bus, don't know.

Not heard anything about any new Kernow stuff other than the Solos.

I'd assume that there's some sort of commitment for South Yorkshire with the various bus partnerships, and wonder if there may be something for First Eastern Counties? Think certain opcos will be relying on cascades again.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Maybe there should force everyone onto the buses and improve the network, that alone would solve the traffic problems.

How would they force people on buses? Gunpoint?

Unfortunately, there's no real solution to the massive traffic problem in Worcester
I don't see how any operator will thrive until that is sorted out (never ?).

Worcester needs a fully completed ring road, a second river crossing in the town, improvements to the current giratory systems, traffic lights and ped crossings that talk to their neighbours in the giratory and a few zebra crossings converted to lights. It was crazy to close the P&R however any traffic coming from the west to go north has to go through the town. Hopefully when the southern link is complete it will help the flow but won't help the town centre.

Diamond tried to compete many years ago, they turned tail and left pretty sharpish.

First are stuck between a rock and a hard place but are sat on several acres of prime city centre land

Sadly Gents, you're pretty well on the money. The traffic congestion is awful and whilst there's some bus priority observation is that it's piecemeal and not enforced so people park/stop in bus lanes etc. Come in from the South and it's an inexorable grind through the traffic.

The "new" fleet will displace the last e300s and some Streetlites apparently but Worcester hasn't done too badly in recent times. However, you have a council who frankly don't really care and hence you have a city with arguably worse local services than Hereford, at least of an evening. A greater contrast is with Gloucester! And remember, this is Worcester that got a shed load of cash in 2003/4 to improve transport and mobility in the city... a long time ago that!

 

[Pokelet]

Maybe there should force everyone onto the buses and improve the network, that alone would solve the traffic problems.

Sadly it's a catch 22 situation. People won't leave the confines of their car to sit on a bus if the bus service is unreliable and in some cases more expensive than parking in town. Improve the quality of the service (WiFi, contactless payment etc.) But you still have an unreliable network and a hotchpotch of a fleet. Some 15 yr old examples unrefurbished, some 15 yr old examples that have been refurbished, then there are new (less than 3yr old) batches that are already looking tired. There is no consistent spec across the whole fleet apart from contactless payment. So you fix the fleet but you can't fix the traffic, entice more people on by cutting prices, car use won't reduce over night but might do slowly. Also things aren't helped by poor marketing and communications. A year or 2 ago almost every stand in the bus station changed destination, however the sinage didn't change for weeks.

I used the bus daily to commute to get a train onwards. Uniquely I was in the position, going home at least, that the shoddy WMT service was often late which would mean I miss the onward bus. Reliability of the bus service being what it is though I rarely missed it as it was either 10+ late or didn't run.

Timetables are near useless as it is impossible even in a car to match the timetabled journey times on some routes.

I can see further cuts to pair it back to city only plus Malvern and Birmingham in the not to distant future. Some of the rural services I can't see justified running a 12m long bus that is empty bar 1-2 passengers (probably concessions as well) for much longer. What's needed there is a ring and ride style service.

 

[KendalKing]

Sadly it's a catch 22 situation. People won't leave the confines of their car to sit on a bus if the bus service is unreliable and in some cases more expensive than parking in town.

It is not help, when some local councils introduce free parking in the run up to Christmas. Even in the days when same local councils ran their own bus services, they would have free parking, but not free bus fares.

 

[carlberry]

It was widely reported through-out 2016, that there would be 110 Gas Buses running in Bristol by Spring 2019!, Unfotunately, it looks like this target will be missed. There is currently about 20 Gas Buses, parked-up at ADL Falkirk factory, which painted in Metrobus livery, it is unclear if these are for First or CT Plus.

The 110 was the figure for a bid for government subsidy that was turned down originally. However a subsequent bid for 110 was accepted so the 110 will arrive but to a different timetable. The current 20 are for CT Plus to run for First. As it's unlikely that they've been bought without subsidy they're likely to be part of the 110.

 

[Volvodart]

I thought First were acquiring 30 with 80 funded. I am sure someone said on here that the funded ones were not for Metrobus, but that may have changed.

 

[Robertj21a]

Maybe there should force everyone onto the buses and improve the network, that alone would solve the traffic problems.

You seem to be assuming that the problems are only created by the private car. What do you do with all the delivery vans to the shops, lorries needing to get to premises, Amazon/Ebay deliveries, disabled etc etc ?

 

[overthewater]

One problem at a time Surly if most of the cars are reduced there would be plenty of room for lots of buses and delivery ?

 

[Robertj21a]

One problem at a time Surly if most of the cars are reduced there would be plenty of room for lots of buses and delivery ?

So have I missed your solution as to how private cars are banned from Worcester ?

 

[overthewater]

Just ban them.. Why is that such a noverty? Make people use park n rides. etc