First Group: General Discussion

[jay38a]

First Northern Ireland as well although you can't read anything into them.

Aircoach in Dublin needs a Northern Ireland arm to base vehicles, lease premises and to employ staff in Belfast as well as for insurance reasons and expenses incurred in NI.

This is achieved by Aircoach contracting some of the 705X out to First Northern Ireland for a fee but online bookings revenue go via the ROI operating company.

The 705X is fully run by First NI.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The 705X is fully run by First NI.

Knew that it was mostly the case but didn't realise it was fully ran from there.

Have corrected.

 

[Robertj21a]

Beeline, West of England

Will these Accounts (to March 2017) be for West of England, Somerset & Avon - or whatever ?

 

[DragonEast]

Is it just Essex accounts missing now?

Presumably they needed an MD to sign them off, which might account for a delay? Could have been interesting when the only "local" Director was the employee director until recently! (Or maybe not, perhaps they would know more about the business, which wouldn't be too hard if what is said on here is anything to go by). Last year's Business Report on the website was I seem to recall "signed" by Justin Davies who I thought was MD of the Wales op co, but presumably Companies House do require the signature (electronic or otherwise) of someone actually on the (nominal) Board.

 

[Volvodart]

At least some of the accounts were signed by Dave Alexander. The delay could be at Companies House. The ones that appeared today were lodged on 22 December 2017.

 

[LazyGuy222]

Anything about First Leicester?

 

[Robertj21a]

Anything about First Leicester?

Leicester was one of the first to report. A £2.16m Operating Profit, down from £3.34m (2016) - seemingly due to slightly reduced sales and increased depreciation (new Streetdecks and Streetlites). Interestingly, the other two operations under the same MD - Worcester and Potteries - managed to also put in an Operating Profit. That's good going for Potteries after their various cutbacks and depot closure.

 

[Harbouring]

You might think that the ex Green Line machines (already available) maybe a better bet for a couple of years (and they will require a repaint )

Just seen a Greenline branded decker (37997 I think it was) operating the University service in Portsmouth. Anyone know if this is a temporary change or
Something more permanent?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Just seen a Greenline branded decker (37997 I think it was) operating the University service in Portsmouth. Anyone know if this is a temporary change or something more permanent?

Rumour I've been hearing is the relief decker is staying where it is along with the three newest ones at least for now. The 3x 2011 are supposed to be going to First Essex but apparently it will not be to Chelmsford but to Colchester depot so that would indicate they won't go on the X30 which is unsurprising since that makes far too much sense so you can expect First not to do it.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Few other updates

First Essex Accounts
Now uploaded to Companies House but the document is still being processed

First Aircoach deliveries
The vehicles to replace the 51 seat 13.5m Jonckheere SHVs built in 2009 for the Belfast-Dublin 705X route will be a more basic 49 seat 12.6m Plaxton Panther 3 with higher density seating.

They will be given fleet numbers 20933-20939 and are branded for the route and being prepared for service at Dennison Commercials in Northern Ireland

(photo by Noel O'Rawe)

 

[DragonEast]

Rumour I've been hearing is the relief decker is staying where it is along with the three newest ones at least for now. The 3x 2011 are supposed to be going to First Essex but apparently it will not be to Chelmsford but to Colchester depot so that would indicate they won't go on the X30 which is unsurprising since that makes far too much sense so you can expect First not to do it.

The mistake I think we make is to assume that anyone at the First OpCo is much bothered about the problems of the X30. It can wait. It washes its face for now, so HQ aren't concerned. Both HQ and the OpCo have more pressing concerns, like meeting today's financial targets. In so far as individual Essex routes can get a look in it's to give them a tick or a cross, and that's it. The Essex OpCo have always seemed to me to do the minimum to achieve what HQ ask of them: they administer the bus co rather than run it. Paper pushers. With some Ops, you can feel the passion of dedicated busmen - see Eastern Counties recently, but never with First Essex or Essex Buses as was. Probably as they've been lucky (or unfortunate) enough never to have faced real competition (they've always withdrawn rather than fought) and never been under threat (contrast Eastern Counties who many thought were finished a decade ago), so they have never had to worry much about the passengers. Rather like a 1950s bus co they can take what they're given. (No wonder "On the Buses" was, I think, filmed in Essex - they wouldn't need a script). When they have to genuflect to customer service it seems grudging or cosmetic. (Their shops and a few oddball drivers stand out remarkedly, which makes them so exceptional). We get occasional comments on here about how the network and buses seemed uncared for. We know appearances can be deceptive; but they can also be a window into the soul and tell you all you need to know.

It often used to puzzle me with the amount of movement of middle management between EC and First Essex, why people well respected at EC seemed to become ineffective once transferred to a stint at FEx (where they never seemed to last) and why the hopeless at FEx seemed to start shining once transferred to EC. Now it doesn't surprise me at all. (Nor does it that Giles and the Regional Management (when they had it, including that temporary national Operations Manager around the turn of the decade) used to pop up so often at Essex - probably out of necessity).

 

[F Great Eastern]

The mistake I think we make is to assume that anyone at the First OpCo is much bothered about the problems of the X30. It can wait. It washes its face for now, so HQ aren't concerned.

Of course - However you'd have thought if these ex Greenline vehicles were coming in to Essex that it made sense to allocated them to Chelmsford and a premium service rather than sending them to Colchester on what will no doubt be on a standard bus service rather than that of a premium service.

The only thing that would make less sense is to remove the tables and refurbish the interior to be more city bus like - the benefit of that Greenline interior as seen here is it's ideal for the X30 with a tweak or two.

In so far as individual Essex routes can get a look in it's to give them a tick or a cross, and that's it. The Essex OpCo have always seemed to me to do the minimum to achieve what HQ ask of them: they administer the bus co rather than run it. Paper pushers. With some Ops, you can feel the passion of dedicated busmen - see Eastern Counties recently, but never with First Essex or Essex Buses as was. Probably as they've been lucky (or unfortunate) enough never to have faced real competition (they've always withdrawn rather than fought) and never been under threat (contrast Eastern Counties who many thought were finished a decade ago), so they have never had to worry much about the passengers. Rather like a 1950s bus co they can take what they're given. (No wonder "On the Buses" was, I think, filmed in Essex - they wouldn't need a script). When they have to genuflect to customer service it seems grudging or cosmetic. (Their shops and a few oddball drivers stand out remarkedly, which makes them so exceptional). We get occasional comments on here about how the network and buses seemed uncared for. We know appearances can be deceptive; but they can also be a window into the soul and tell you all you need to know.

It often used to puzzle me with the amount of movement of middle management between EC and First Essex, why people well respected at EC seemed to become ineffective once transferred to a stint at FEx (where they never seemed to last) and why the hopeless at FEx seemed to start shining once transferred to EC. Now it doesn't surprise me at all. (Nor does it that Giles and the Regional Management (when they had it, including that temporary national Operations Manager around the turn of the decade) used to pop up so often at Essex - probably out of necessity).

Completely agree with that, you see it all the time, some operations where people see it more as a job that has to be done and is out of necessity not really something they really want to and others who really enjoy their jobs and are passionate about the service they deliver to the customers with excellent attention to detail and you can see it's not just a job for them and is more a labour of love in some respects.

 

[DragonEast]

Of course - However you'd have thought if these ex Greenline vehicles were coming in to Essex that it made sense to allocated them to Chelmsford and a premium service rather than sending them to Colchester

I'd assumed (optimistically, I'll grant) that it might be because Colchester depot have more room for storage whilst any adjustments are made! But FEx seem to live in a time warp so they're probably still addressing some old issue/settling an old score from a few years ago, the X30 has to wait its turn on the list (if it's even on it yet), and the current reality hasn't dawned yet . . .

 

[overthewater]

First bus drivers threaten strike over plans to cut wages
https://stv.tv/news/north/1405799-first-bus-drivers-could-strike-over-plans-to-cut-wages/

First bus drivers in Aberdeen could strike over proposals to cut their wages and scrap paid breaks, STV News understands.

The company has outlined the plans following a reduction in passenger numbers across the city.

Under the proposals seen by STV News, wages would be cut, meaning drivers who have up to one year's service would be paid £9.50 an hour while those who have been working for more than four would get £10.85.


Paid breaks would be scraped, with drivers being offered a maximum of two that would be unpaid.

Drivers could also be on the road for up to ten hours each day while holiday entitlement would also be reduced.

Staff will be balloted on the plans on Thursday.

A source told STV News: "This is likely to lead to strike action within the next six weeks.

"The drivers don't want to go on strike, however, the compromising of safety by extending the driving time and the slashing of wages of drivers is going to affect their quality of life."

'The drivers don't want to go on strike, however the compromising of safety by extending the driving time and the slashing of wages of drivers is going to affect their quality of life.'
STV News source
Willie Wallace, of Unite the Union,said: "The strike isn't impossible. We will be balloting on the proposals later this week. We will then feedback the result. I can't rule out it may lead to industrial action.

"Pay is being cut, the day is being spread over a longer time and their breaks would be affected. The consensus is drivers are not happy at all.

"We are duty bound to ballot them on the proposals on Thursday, with the results on Friday. We could be in a dispute situation depending on the results."

In his letter outlining the final proposals, managing director for First Aberdeen Andrew Jarvis said: "The business can no longer sustain the high costs associated with the current terms and conditions of employment for bus drivers and trainee bus drivers and it is necessary for us to act now to protect the future viability of the business."

He added: "The downturn in the local economy and falling revenue on some routes means the current financial position cannot be maintained.

"It is crucial that we revise our operational costs to make the business sustainable into the future.

"We have entered into constructive dialogue with trade union representatives over the new package."

 

[Robertj21a]

First bus drivers threaten strike over plans to cut wages
https://stv.tv/news/north/1405799-first-bus-drivers-could-strike-over-plans-to-cut-wages/

At best this sounds 'highly unfortunate' and at worst it looks like First is about to shoot itself in both feet.

 

[Robertj21a]

Accounts for First West of England (previously Somerset & Avon) show a significant increase in Operating Losses to March 2017. The previous loss of £2.169m (2016) has increased to a loss of £7.728m to March 2017. It appears that over £4m has also had to be allocated to the pension fund.

 

[Volvodart]

Accounts for First West of England (previously Somerset & Avon) show a significant increase in Operating Losses to March 2017. The previous loss of £2.169m (2016) has increased to a loss of £7.728m to March 2017. It appears that over £4m has also had to be allocated to the pension fund.

The vast majority of the loss can be accounted for by the increase in group recharges allocation.

 

[Volvodart]

At best this sounds 'highly unfortunate' and at worst it looks like First is about to shoot itself in both feet.

They tried this a few years ago but backed down and it only affected new starts. It was inevitable it would be revisited sometime. I presume First have been successful in changing drivers' conditions elsewhere.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Essex accounts in.

They've gone from an operating profit of 403,000 to a operating loss of 340,000.

Also a pension hit I've not included

 

[DragonEast]

Essex accounts in.

They've gone from an operating profit of 403,000 to a operating loss of 340,000.

Also a pension hit I've not included

I thought I was reading last years' report. But I suspect standing still is quite an achievement in the current environment and does, at least for First, represent the effect of quite a bit of paddling below the surface. The things we know about, m-ticketing, commuter services and contract wins, where First Essex have done better than anyone else locally, seem to be working. They don't appear to mention the deals with developers perhaps due to a bit of commercial confidentiality.

I can't finish without a bit of carping, perhaps. But season ticket commuters can get fed up if services don't deliver, Network Rail will eventually get their act together, and developer money runs out - as does government money too; so what they have is sticking plaster to enable the services to heal rather than new limbs. What is the network they are planning for in the next 5-10 and more years? The greater your short term issues, the more you need a longer term plan, perhaps? In Essex, at least, it may be about marrying your commercial and subsidised network, to benefit (and hopefully, secure) both? In the south east it's all about housing growth. How do you translate that into bus growth? With all the other changes that are going on - foreseen and unforeseen? Where to start? Easy, the X30.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I thought I was reading last years' report. But I suspect standing still is quite an achievement in the current environment and does, at least for First, represent the effect of quite a bit of paddling below the surface. The things we know about, m-ticketing, commuter services and contract wins, where First Essex have done better than anyone else locally, seem to be working. They don't appear to mention the deals with developers perhaps due to a bit of commercial confidentiality.

Whilst going from a profit of 400k to a loss of 340k is by no means the worst decline in any of the First businesses it's still a negative that they've gone from a profit making business to a loss making one.

Revenue was up from £50.1m to £50.3m but operational costs increased from £49.7m to £50.6m. The accounts were signed off by Steve Wickers.

 

[DragonEast]

Whilst going from a profit of 400k to a loss of 340k is by no means the worst decline in any of the First businesses it's still a negative that they've gone from a profit making business to a loss making one.

Revenue was up from £50.1m to £50.3m but operational costs increased from £49.7m to £50.6m. The accounts were signed off by Steve Wickers.

Must admit I was mainly looking at the standstill on revenue. But I wonder did the consolidation of (I think) the three old depots and commissioning of a new one at Colchester happen in last financial year? Could that have contributed one-off costs, hopefully for a longer term benefit? Something similar in Norwich, I think, though was enhancement of the major depot, and later. Nothing to really show they are getting to grips with the issues, though that wouldn't show up yet. And what we know about so far is only tinkering (apart from the depot rationalisation).

 

[Cesarcollie]

Whilst going from a profit of 400k to a loss of 340k is by no means the worst decline in any of the First businesses it's still a negative that they've gone from a profit making business to a loss making one.

Revenue was up from £50.1m to £50.3m but operational costs increased from £49.7m to £50.6m. The accounts were signed off by Steve Wickers.[/Q

I think First have decided to give Go Ahead a bit of competition - the winner being who can lose the most money in Essex!! At the moment Go Ahead (Hedingham) are in the lead, but their 2017 accounts aren't out yet. Of course if you include pension liabilities (which take the First Essex loss this year to £6m) then First win. Interesting reversal of the stereotype - generally in Essex the independents are making reasonable money, and the plc's are losing it (in more ways than one!).The First February 18 changes are now all in N & P but there's not enough detail on 'changed' routes/timetables to know whether it's minor tinkering or major frequency cuts. However my guess (and it's only a guess) is that PVR will reduce by between 10 and 20 buses.

 

[DragonEast]

I think First have decided to give Go Ahead a bit of competition - the winner being who can lose the most money in Essex!! At the moment Go Ahead (Hedingham) are in the lead, but their 2017 accounts aren't out yet. Of course if you include pension liabilities (which take the First Essex loss this year to £6m) then First win. Interesting reversal of the stereotype - generally in Essex the independents are making reasonable money, and the plc's are losing it (in more ways than one!).The First February 18 changes are now all in N & P but there's not enough detail on 'changed' routes/timetables to know whether it's minor tinkering or major frequency cuts. However my guess (and it's only a guess) is that PVR will reduce by between 10 and 20 buses.

I admit to wondering in the past about the future of First Essex, if they have one. But out of my reverie, it's theirs to lose; and surely it's not who can lose more money this year (or even next), it's about who gives up first, and sorry as much as I might be disappointed it ain't I think going to be First. (Their annual reports do keep banging on about how they monitor the local market - the key). If they are doing anything it's laying the groundwork for the battle to come, probably over the north Essex new towns/garden villages which are bus-dependent (but don't neglect the backyard is often sensible advice). As always it's a waiting game and stamina is the key as much as anything else. The same with the independents, they can be choosy, and are - though First haven't given them a clear run, recently. First will presumably hope to repeat their "success" at Beaulieu Park (though how much of a success it is we have still to see, as National Rail have helped them so far with their interminable delays in progressing a new station - meanwhile commuters are -or must feel- trapped on the bus). But it's a different league, even for Stephensons who have fed off routes dropped by First (though I suspect it's a rather meagre diet that they make the most of but I would like to know how they got the several millions for the Boreham depot!). I suspect Stephensons, and much more Ensign, are helped (a lot) by their bus dealerships. Arriva stay quiet, but may be retrenching. We have yet to find out.

The PVR reduction is about what I was thinking, perhaps at the lower end. They can't afford to upset their paying, season ticket, commuter base too much- though at times they've poured so much in that it's a mess - see Canvey and Chelmsford station! It's probably the rest that isn't performing.

But with a similar level of losses surely if First Essex catch cold, Hedingham/Chambers/Go-Ahead might end up with pneumonia? Now with all our grumbles, there's not too many First subsidaries of which you could say that, are there?

But crystal-ball gazing is fun, so given the multi-millions that are "wasted" on the separate regimes for service buses, social services transport and education transport (as at least the Department of Transport and Essex and Suffolk County Councils have cottoned on) if they can be brought together - and I appreciate the huge logistical difficulties - with commerce increasingly replacing government as the supporter of service routes, who do we think will be amongst the winners?

 

[Cesarcollie]

I admit to wondering in the past about the future of First Essex, if they have one. But out of my reverie, it's theirs to lose; and surely it's not who can lose more money this year (or even next), it's about who gives up first, and sorry as much as I might be disappointed it ain't I think going to be First. (Their annual reports do keep banging on about how they monitor the local market - the key). If they are doing anything it's laying the groundwork for the battle to come, probably over the north Essex new towns/garden villages which are bus-dependent (but don't neglect the backyard is often sensible advice). As always it's a waiting game and stamina is the key as much as anything else. The same with the independents, they can be choosy, and are - though First haven't given them a clear run, recently. First will presumably hope to repeat their "success" at Beaulieu Park (though how much of a success it is we have still to see, as National Rail have helped them so far with their interminable delays in progressing a new station - meanwhile commuters are -or must feel- trapped on the bus). But it's a different league, even for Stephensons who have fed off routes dropped by First (though I suspect it's a rather meagre diet that they make the most of but I would like to know how they got the several millions for the Boreham depot!). I suspect Stephensons, and much more Ensign, are helped (a lot) by their bus dealerships. Arriva stay quiet, but may be retrenching. We have yet to find out.

The PVR reduction is about what I was thinking, perhaps at the lower end. They can't afford to upset their paying, season ticket, commuter base too much- though at times they've poured so much in that it's a mess - see Canvey and Chelmsford station! It's probably the rest that isn't performing.

But with a similar level of losses surely if First Essex catch cold, Hedingham/Chambers/Go-Ahead might end up with pneumonia? Now with all our grumbles, there's not too many First subsidaries of which you could say that, are there?

You're quite right - First aren't going to 'disappear' - they're too big for that, whereas Hedingham/Chambers could more easily vanish at the whim of a grumpy Plc finance director as long as there was a way of 'saving face ' - given the acquisitions are not that long ago and the same senior team are largely in place.

However, First have to be radical - it's not just Essex losing money - it's a whole load of businesses. The City will get very bored, dividends will struggle, and there'll be no question of new vehicles (and Essex alone, one the 2002 Solos have gone, still have a few Tridents plus a huge number of 2005 Volvo/Wrights which won't last forever).

I wouldn't be surprised if the small increase in turnover is a drop in commercial revenues, offset by an increase in tendered work. That makes the sales line look good, but profitability relies upon those tenders being correctly costed - bearing in mind ECC pay no annual increases, irrespective of tender length.

I don't think Stephensons do much vehicle dealing now, though Ensign of course does.

 

[overthewater]

I still believed (i am allowed to think ) Go ahead were sniffing around other aserts in the Essex to bolt on to the operation like Arriva colchester, which would perfectly fit in with Hedingham/Chambers. Anyways Stephensons, still surprises me when I see them how there can operate certain routes, didnt there have an outstation at Braintree?

Essex isn't a problem First needs to be dealing with since there other areas need more radical attention. There gone from very small profit to very small loss, highlight there not doing to bad, Again WERE 9 months out of step... but I would say the changes being planned will cut the costs, hopeful still providing a decent network. Its impossible to know which areas are really causing trouble because of the pension add ons.

 

[DragonEast]

I wouldn't be surprised if the small increase in turnover is a drop in commercial revenues, offset by an increase in tendered work. That makes the sales line look good, but profitability relies upon those tenders being correctly costed - bearing in mind ECC pay no annual increases, irrespective of tender length.

I gather most of the FEx tendered work is now hybrid where they have control over fares (and keep the income), and (within limits, presumably) timetables, and short term 1-2 years, subject to extensions. Whether that's a blessing or a curse, we shall see! It should avoid the Regal curse, at least, where they were locked into 5++ years of hell caught between declining rebates and increasing costs, and fixed price tenders!

As to problem areas . . . I think we have to try to prevent areas becoming problems in the first place. Once they're a problem, it's probably too late . . . that's just firefighting! Though, probably, a lesson First never learned, or just can't afford to! As for Essex, the way to sort them out is some competition. Mind you it'd be kill or cure, most probably the former. Go-Ahead strangely haven't the will, or the resources. May be they've found the light isn't worth the candle? It'd be a start if the abandoned 72/41 were taken on by other operators, but First will do all they can to prevent that, even at a cost to profitability, since the passengers given half a chance would flock off of the "competing" First services and the edifice would start to crack. It's happened elsewhere. Everybody knows it. It's just a matter of time. Their way of attracting passengers: give them less for more. They have no alternative.

 

[F Great Eastern]

First Northern Ireland (Aircoach NI)
Profit of 52k after tax compared to a loss of 233k last year. No pension hit.

This company is contracted by Last Passive (Aircoach ROI) to provide services in Northern Ireland to run the 705X Aircoach service and it is believed that the ticket revenue may well stay with Last Passive and First Northern Ireland just get a fee for running these services. It's further complicated by the fact that First Northern Ireland acquires coaches and other assets and then leases or sells them to the ROI business.

Therefore it's not possible to really judge these accounts without seeing the ROI ones, which are made up to the same date and will be published at the end of this month on cro.ie.

 

[DragonEast]

However, First have to be radical - it's not just Essex losing money - it's a whole load of businesses. The City will get very bored, dividends will struggle, and there'll be no question of new vehicles
...

Don't the published results just show what some of us have felt for some time: that First Bus are effectively a business in receivership, in all but name? Of course it's not, it's a going concern, the Directors and auditors certify accordingly. But doesn't it increasingly look like the statis that affected a number of retail "names", and look how they ended up? The pensions lifeboat sunk a number of them too. I know everything is for sale at the right price, but why should anyone buy and throw good money after bad? Just bide your time.

 

[Volvodart]

The accounts for Stagecoach companies currently being filed show similar declines in margins to First, although they were higher in the first place.