Fixed Penalty Notice received -train ticket bought accidentally with a railcard discount. No railcard held.

[Yorkshire]

Son received Fixed Penalty Notice for £90 plus £9.60. Son travelling with girlfriend, she has a railcard and bought them both a ticket. She did not realise until the conductor came round that the railcard discount had been applied to my sons ticket too. He offered on the spot to pay the difference or buy another ticket, the conductor refused. The railcard discount was max £5. Today he has received a Fixed Penalty Notice for nearly £100. He is an 18 year old school student, it was a genuine mistake which he offered to rectify on the spot. Any advice on next steps, appears you can not appeal this.

 

[furlong]

Did the station where he boarded have ticket selling facilities available at that time?

There seems to be no political will to deal with this sort of scam. It acquired the nickname 'Penalty Fake' on this forum. The bodies that are nominally responsible for taking action refuse to get involved and the costs of the legal routes needed to try to stop it are prohibitive.

There is no such thing as a 'Fixed Penalty Notice' in this context. The small print will explain that it is not actually a Penalty in the legal meaning of that word but rather it is an offer that if your son pays an amount that the company asserts covers the direct costs it has incurred in dealing with this specific incident (costs that many people would consider are exaggerated and were largely avoidable as he was willing to pay on the spot) then in return the company agrees not to prosecute him for any criminal offence related to boarding that train without a valid ticket. The offences were defined broadly on the understanding that they required evidence of deliberate evasion, but "deliberate" has ended up with a catch-all definition making that protection largely meaningless now.

Realistically all you can do is write to the train company and try to persuade them to back down and accept the difference in fare, but most people either give up and pay this type of demand once they realise that that is the least bad option or ignore it and end up getting prosecuted and fined which costs even more. You could pay a solicitor for help but that would inevitably cost you more than paying this and the company knows that and it might still make no difference to the outcome. Unless this happens to someone willing to throw large sums of money at the higher echelons of the legal system the only realistic solution can be political. After settling, bring it to the attention of your M.P. and the Transport Select Committee but expect nothing to happen. Maybe someone one day will be so angry that they are motivated to set up and run a political campaign for change but it's not a very compelling cause for politicians wary of accusations of "siding with fare dodgers" - the problem is too nuanced.

 

[BJames]

Did the station where he boarded have ticket selling facilities available at that time?

There seems to be no political will to deal with this sort of scam. It acquired the nickname 'Penalty Fake' on this forum. The bodies that are nominally responsible for taking action refuse to get involved and the costs of the legal routes needed to try to stop it are prohibitive.

There is no such thing as a 'Fixed Penalty Notice' in this context. The small print will explain that it is not actually a Penalty in the legal meaning of that word but rather it is an offer that if your son pays an amount that the company asserts covers the direct costs it has incurred in dealing with this specific incident (costs that many people would consider are exaggerated and were largely avoidable as he was willing to pay on the spot) then in return the company agrees not to prosecute him for any criminal offence related to boarding that train without a valid ticket. The offences were defined broadly on the understanding that they required evidence of deliberate evasion, but "deliberate" has ended up with a catch-all definition making that protection largely meaningless now.

Realistically all you can do is write to the train company and try to persuade them to back down and accept the difference in fare, but most people either give up and pay this type of demand once they realise that that is the least bad option or ignore it and end up getting prosecuted and fined which costs even more. You could pay a solicitor for help but that would inevitably cost you more than paying this and the company knows that and it might still make no difference to the outcome. Unless this happens to someone willing to throw large sums of money at the higher echelons of the legal system the only realistic solution can be political. After settling, bring it to the attention of your M.P. and the Transport Select Committee but expect nothing to happen. Maybe someone one day will be so angry that they are motivated to set up and run a political campaign for change but it's not a very compelling cause for politicians wary of accusations of "siding with fare dodgers" - the problem is too nuanced.

This is indeed frustrating - for example, according to the 16-25 railcard website, companies "usually" allow you to claim back extra expense on the first instance of forgetting railcard. Given that the individual in question was willing to pay the fare, it would I assume be of no harm to write to the company and ask them whether, as a first time situation, they will make a gesture of goodwill (this is assuming that it is first time occurrence and probably with signposting to the link in question). I have made a claim once (got lucky and was excessed on a two-together railcard - but now I have a 16-25 it lives in my wallet) and was successful in receiving the money back - you never know...

I must add though on the other side of things - Trainsplit, when I booked for three of us with three separate railcards recently, came up with a warning screen that all three of us must individually be in possession of a valid railcard for our tickets to be valid. Noting the caveat of you are responsible to check these things etc etc I'm just wondering whether other ticket selling websites do this too? I rarely book for other people.

 

[Deafdoggie]

This is indeed frustrating - for example, according to the 16-25 railcard website, companies "usually" allow you to claim back extra expense on the first instance of forgetting railcard. Given that the individual in question was willing to pay the fare, it would I assume be of no harm to write to the company and ask them whether, as a first time situation, they will make a gesture of goodwill (this is assuming that it is first time occurrence and probably with signposting to the link in question). I have made a claim once (got lucky and was excessed on a two-together railcard - but now I have a 16-25 it lives in my wallet) and was successful in receiving the money back - you never know...

I must add though on the other side of things - Trainsplit, when I booked for three of us with three separate railcards recently, came up with a warning screen that all three of us must individually be in possession of a valid railcard for our tickets to be valid. Noting the caveat of you are responsible to check these things etc etc I'm just wondering whether other ticket selling websites do this too? I rarely book for other people.

Trainline put this warning on too. I guess therefore that is the railways argument, that the customer should have checked.
I can see a solicitor being able to get your son out of this, but it would cost more than the settlement and the railway company know this!

 

[Yorkshire]

The station they boarded at has a ticket machine, it is an unmanned station. The train company website says the maximum penalty is £20 or twice the fare, I do not understand therefore where the £90 plus £9.60 comes from. I have got a phone number for the train company legal team so will call, write etc and see what happens.
It does feel as though the train conductor refusing him to allow him to buy another ticket at approx £15 then charging £100 is a money making driven decision.

 

[Falcon1200]

Looking at it from the railway's point of view, perhaps such a huge penalty is designed, in part, to dissuade non-railcard holders from buying a railcard-discounted ticket in the hope it will not be checked during the journey - Not that I am suggesting in any way that the situation described here was deliberate.

 

[Dai Corner]

When contacting the train company think about it from their point of view. They probably deal with many fare evaders who don't hold railcards but buy discounted tickets in the hope they won't be caught and will have heard every excuse/mitigation under the sun.

Has your son since bought a Railcard? That would be evidence that the incident was a one-off error and will not be repeated.

Note that if the tickets were bought online they can obtain the purchase history and look for anything suspicious. Could such an investigation end badly for the girlfriend?

 

[AlterEgo]

The station they boarded at has a ticket machine, it is an unmanned station. The train company website says the maximum penalty is £20 or twice the fare, I do not understand therefore where the £90 plus £9.60 comes from.

Those are penalty fares. Unfortunately your son hasn’t been given a penalty fare. He’s been reported for prosecution - as the company are entirely within their rights to do - and the company is now trying to settle out of court.

@furlong sums up the situation very neatly. Most of us here are very sceptical of Northern’s practice with these “Penalty Fakes”.

 

[RPI]

This is indeed frustrating - for example, according to the 16-25 railcard website, companies "usually" allow you to claim back extra expense on the first instance of forgetting railcard.

Not relevant here as the OP has said that the passenger doesn't own a railcard.

The only argument that could be made is that the OP's son didn't actually purchase the ticket, this does then run the risk of bringing the girlfriend into this, if it was a digital ticket bought on an app then there could be a possibility of the booking history being investigated into how many times two railcard tickets have "accidently" been bought, admittedly this is far more difficult to prove and deal with than a case where the person who was actually stopped had bought the tickets themselves.

 

[DerelictLine]

This is indeed frustrating - for example, according to the 16-25 railcard website, companies "usually" allow you to claim back extra expense on the first instance of forgetting railcard. Given that the individual in question was willing to pay the fare, it would I assume be of no harm to write to the company and ask them whether, as a first time situation, they will make a gesture of goodwill (this is assuming that it is first time occurrence and probably with signposting to the link in question). I have made a claim once (got lucky and was excessed on a two-together railcard - but now I have a 16-25 it lives in my wallet) and was successful in receiving the money back - you never know...

To add to this, I had an experience on Cross Country where I forgot my railcard when I had a ticket on Trainline with a railcard discount applied. I think the conductor knew it was a genuine mistake (my friend was with me who had his railcard, and we had our suitcases to go on holiday). The conductor made me buy a new ticket at full fare but said I can claim this back if I send proof of a valid railcard to Cross Country, which I did.

 

[RPI]

To add to this, I had an experience on Cross Country where I forgot my railcard when I had a ticket on Trainline with a railcard discount applied. I think the conductor knew it was a genuine mistake (my friend was with me who had his railcard, and we had our suitcases to go on holiday). The conductor made me buy a new ticket at full fare but said I can claim this back if I send proof of a valid railcard to Cross Country, which I did.

Again, this isn't helpful to the OP as from what I can gather they don't own a railcard at all.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have got a phone number for the train company legal team so will call, write etc and see what happens.

The whole situation is very unfair as others have said - tho we see lots of cases of young people in particular on here buying tickets with railcard discounts for Railcards do not have as a deliberate fare evasion tactic - and no doubt some staff 'tar everyone with the same brush'.

Before you do the above I would strongly recommend that your son actually gets a Railcard ASAP (as this allows you to show that prompt steps have been taken to prevent this honest mistake ever happening again)
and
Also bear in mind they might not discuss it with you without written authority from your son. They will regard his age at 18 as adult and that the matter is between them and him, unless he has given you authority to act on his behalf.

 

[Watershed]

Son received Fixed Penalty Notice for £90 plus £9.60. Son travelling with girlfriend, she has a railcard and bought them both a ticket. She did not realise until the conductor came round that the railcard discount had been applied to my sons ticket too. He offered on the spot to pay the difference or buy another ticket, the conductor refused. The railcard discount was max £5. Today he has received a Fixed Penalty Notice for nearly £100. He is an 18 year old school student, it was a genuine mistake which he offered to rectify on the spot. Any advice on next steps, appears you can not appeal this.

Unfortunately, there is nothing to 'appeal' per se. Your son committed an offence by boarding the train without a valid ticket; they are entitled to prosecute him but are instead offering to settle the matter out of Court if he agrees to pay £99.60. He can either choose to pay that, or be prosecuted.

This is, of course, out of all proportion with their real costs (and in any case, they would have incurred few, if any costs if the conductor had simply sold him a new ticket or excess). But they are entitled to do it; the law is in their favour. And for as long as it remains that way, they will continue to abuse the power they have.

The £20 you reference is what your son would have been charged if he had received a Penalty Fare. But there is no 'entitlement' to settle an irregularity by means of a Penalty Fare; it is up to the train company how they deal with it.

 

[BJames]

Not relevant here as the OP has said that the passenger doesn't own a railcard.

The only argument that could be made is that the OP's son didn't actually purchase the ticket, this does then run the risk of bringing the girlfriend into this, if it was a digital ticket bought on an app then there could be a possibility of the booking history being investigated into how many times two railcard tickets have "accidently" been bought, admittedly this is far more difficult to prove and deal with than a case where the person who was actually stopped had bought the tickets themselves.

Quite right - apologies, I didn't read this properly!

 

[30907]

I must add though on the other side of things - Trainsplit, when I booked for three of us with three separate railcards recently, came up with a warning screen that all three of us must individually be in possession of a valid railcard for our tickets to be valid. Noting the caveat of you are responsible to check these things etc etc I'm just wondering whether other ticket selling websites do this too? I rarely book for other people.

The only app I use (Northern's) and the handful of websites I am familiar with require you to select the correct number of railcards for the passengers. You cannot "accidentally" buy a discounted ticket - the GF should, unfortunately, have checked first.
Though I do think this is worth negotiating.

 

[yorkie]

Son received Fixed Penalty Notice for £90 plus £9.60. Son travelling with girlfriend, she has a railcard and bought them both a ticket. She did not realise until the conductor came round that the railcard discount had been applied to my sons ticket too. He offered on the spot to pay the difference or buy another ticket, the conductor refused. The railcard discount was max £5. Today he has received a Fixed Penalty Notice for nearly £100. He is an 18 year old school student, it was a genuine mistake which he offered to rectify on the spot. Any advice on next steps, appears you can not appeal this.

As others have said, it sounds like this is an out of court settlement offer (some train companies may use fancy terms for this).

If you choose not to pay it, the company may prosecute; if you choose this course of action I would ensure a solicitor is appointed to represent your son. If the prosecution is under the draconian Railway Byelaws, this is a strict liability matter, so it maybe difficult to defend the case. That said, some train companies have been known to drop cases when they realise the matter is going to be defended by a solicitor, as most of the cases that are brought before the courts do not appear to be defended and the train companies can easily rake in loads of money using very little court time in such instances.

It may be better to pay the amount demanded, to make the issue go away.

In theory you could try to negotiate the amount down, but the amount of effort it would require to get through to someone, combined with what is probably a relatively low chance of success, probably means it's not worth doing that.

The train company concerned does not care about customer service and does not want your custom or your son's custom and won't be interested in acting in a reasonable manner, so the above are your only realistic options.

Sorry this isn't what you wanted to hear but that is the harsh reality I'm afraid.

If the website in question does not make the Railcard situation clear, you could contact them about the matter, and you could try to seek some recompense but I wouldn't hold out much hope of that.

 

[jamiearmley]

The only app I use (Northern's) and the handful of websites I am familiar with require you to select the correct number of railcards for the passengers. You cannot "accidentally" buy a discounted ticket - the GF should, unfortunately, have checked first.
Though I do think this is worth negotiating.

Absolutely agree with this. Trainline app, for example, makes you physically add a railcard for each ticket. So for 2 adults, you have to physically select the railcard, - and then confirm that selection, - twice : once for each adult travelling. Logic suggests it has been designed this way to ensure that the act of adding the railcard discount to each individual ticket is deliberate, thus preventing accidental errors.

Of course, once this has been done, it 'remains' done until removed : so future app transactions will use the same number of railcards and tickets until such time as the user changes it.

 

[Yorkshire]

Thank you for the replies. Will call them and see what they say.

Spoke to Northern Rail today and they advised the reason the amount is nearly £100 is because a travel incident report was logged. Asked why the £20 or double the fare was not charged. The first person said it depends on the line, took a photo of a sign today at a station on the same line that shows the £20 or double fare sign.
i said it seemed that if he had no ticket he would have been fined £20 or double the fare, but because he did he had been charged £100. Two different calls each time the line went dead when I said this.
Have the appeals email so will appeal.

 

[Watershed]

Thank you for the replies. Will call them and see what they say.

Spoke to Northern Rail today and they advised the reason the amount is nearly £100 is because a travel incident report was logged. Asked why the £20 or double the fare was not charged. The first person said it depends on the line, took a photo of a sign today at a station on the same line that shows the £20 or double fare sign.
i said it seemed that if he had no ticket he would have been fined £20 or double the fare, but because he did he had been charged £100. Two different calls the line went dead when I said this.

It's because they have no obligation to settle the matter through a Penalty Fare. They can decide to take your details instead, and offer an out of Court settlement. The law doesn't regulate how much an out of Court settlement can be, although most TOCs charge something in the region of £80-100 plus the fare outstanding.

The notices at stations must be in place to allow them to charge Penalty Fares, for when they choose to dispose of an irregularity that way. But I agree, they are arguably misleading when the company also deals with irregularities by means of so-called "Fixed Penalty Notices".

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for the replies. Will call them and see what they say.

Spoke to Northern Rail today and they advised the reason the amount is nearly £100 is because a travel incident report was logged. Asked why the £20 or double the fare was not charged. The first person said it depends on the line, took a photo of a sign today at a station on the same line that shows the £20 or double fare sign.
i said it seemed that if he had no ticket he would have been fined £20 or double the fare, but because he did he had been charged £100. Two different calls each time the line went dead when I said this.
Have the appeals email so will appeal.

The signs are there because they are required to be there for them to be able to issue Penalty Fares - that does not mean they are obliged to offer a Penalty Fare to resolve the situation. This is the problem. Post #16 above is the harsh reality

There is no 'appeal' process open to you that I can see (but of course you can write to them and ask them to reconsider the sum they are asking for) - they may of course reply and say no, we are not going to do that, and we are now going to take this to court. It's your choice. My hunch is that will cost more, the outcome will be a guilty verdict (and a criminal record) - you need to consider that against what they are asking for to avoid that (or strictly speaking your son does as it would be his name on the court summons).

You might be better off taking the sense of injustice about their processes up with your Member of Parliament - since the real issue is that the law covering train fares when people have the wrong ticket is massively stacked in favour of the railway company and against the passenger. Ask your MP to back a change in those laws, or ask him to ask the Secretary of State to make Penalty Fares to only option available to the train company for example.

 

[Yorkshire]

Thank you for the replies. They gave an email address to appeal to and said the clock stops ticking whilst this is investigated. Is this not correct?
I do intend to contact my MP too as the system is not transparent at all, the staff appeared to find it hard to explain on the telephone.

 

[skyhigh]

Thank you for the replies. They gave an email address to appeal to and said the clock stops ticking whilst this is investigated. Is this not correct?

There is no formal appeal process. I'm assuming they said something along the lines of "if you have any factors you wish to mention in mitigation of the incident please contact..." - so you are able to do so, but they still have the ability to cancel the offer of a settlement and proceed to court if they wish.

 

[Yorkshire]

They said if you wish to appeal this please send details to xxxx

 

[WesternLancer]

They said if you wish to appeal this please send details to xxxx

Hopefully worth a try. Make it clear when you write that you are doing so following a telephone conversation with their staff who explained that you could do this or advised you to do it.

Good luck too.

 

[43096]

It's because they have no obligation to settle the matter through a Penalty Fare. They can decide to take your details instead, and offer an out of Court settlement.

So how is it decided on which route to take? On the whim of the individual RPI, depending on if they got out of bed the right side that morning? Wouldn't it be fairer for mistakes if it was two strikes and you're out i.e. after 2 Penalty Fares it's the court route as clearly a lesson hasn't been learned. Obviously it's rather different for doughnuting and other deliberate avoidance.

 

[Watershed]

So how is it decided on which route to take? On the whim of the individual RPI, depending on if they got out of bed the right side that morning? Wouldn't it be fairer for mistakes if it was two strikes and you're out i.e. after 2 Penalty Fares it's the court route as clearly a lesson hasn't been learned. Obviously it's rather different for doughnuting and other deliberate avoidance.

Yes, in essence. The other thing is that, ironically, you're worse off if you are 'caught' by a conductor who decides not to sell you a ticket - because they're not trained to issue Penalty Fares. So that can only result in a prosecution or settlement.

 

[RPI]

Not necessarily, guards (at most TOC'S) can issue Unpaid Fare Notices

Yes, in essence. The other thing is that, ironically, you're worse off if you are 'caught' by a conductor who decides not to sell you a ticket - because they're not trained to issue Penalty Fares. So that can only result in a prosecution or settlement.

 

[Watershed]

Not necessarily, guards (at most TOC'S) can issue Unpaid Fare Notices

I'm not sure if Northern have procedures for that in place.

 

[jamiearmley]

I'm not sure if Northern have procedures for that in place.

They certainly do have such procedures. However, they exist for those that cannot pay the fare due to a conductor, not to deal with ticketing irregularities. In this case, i would argue a report is more appropriate, as it triggers investigation into the ticket history and any other irregularities which may become evident.

 

[philthetube]

There seems to be no political will to deal with this sort of scam. It acquired the nickname 'Penalty Fake' on this forum. The bodies that are nominally responsible for taking action refuse to get involved and the costs of the legal routes needed to try to stop it are prohibitive.

Where I don't like penalty fakes, the alternative would be more prosecutions, do we want that.