Flixtrain in the United Kingdom

[Masbroughlad]

Flixbus is in the UK. Could we ever see Flixtrain like in Germany?

An OA operator? Could use old, basic refurbished stock or be like a Lumo type operation?

Where could they operate? Overnighters to London? City to city taking unconventional routes? Replace some of the lost XC services - Scotland via the West Coast to SW/SE/Wales? Inverness to Euston via WC and Birmingham? All sorts of ideas!

A lime green set of Mk2 aircons/mk3s (with door mods). Class 68 or 88 being used? What other stored stock is usable that could be scrubbed up and put into service?

Tbh, I am surprised we have never seen easyTrain, orange liveried stock on OA services. Maybe Flixtrain could jump in?

Or will GBR make OA operating too much hassle, now we have a new Transport Secretary?

Lots of opportunities. Maybe.

 

[The Planner]

Flixbus is in the UK. Could we ever see Flixtrain like in Germany?

An OA operator? Could use old, basic refurbished stock or be like a Lumo type operation?

Where could they operate? Overnighters to London? City to city taking unconventional routes? Replace some of the lost XC services - Scotland via the West Coast to SW/SE/Wales? Inverness to Euston via WC and Birmingham? All sorts of ideas!

A lime green set of Mk2 aircons/mk3s (with door mods). Class 68 or 88 being used? What other stored stock is usable that could be scrubbed up and put into service?

Tbh, I am surprised we have never seen easyTrain, orange liveried stock on OA services. Maybe Flixtrain could jump in?

Or will GBR make OA operating too much hassle, now we have a new Transport Secretary?

Lots of opportunities. Maybe.

File under any OA proposal. They wouldn't do anything that any other OA proposal would.

 

[Simon11]

Flixbus just doesn't have the experience needed to enter the rail market in the UK, with large barriers to overcome resources/ financial and at the moment, their brand moment is building but it isn't as strong as it is in Europe.

However, what I could see happening is that Flixbus provides their Flixtrain branding/ commercial system and has an existing transport operator who runs open access services on their behalf.

 

[anthony263]

Flixbus just doesn't have the experience needed to enter the rail market in the UK, with large barriers to overcome resources/ financial and at the moment, their brand moment is building but it isn't as strong as it is in Europe.

However, what I could see happening is that Flixbus provides their Flixtrain branding/ commercial system and has an existing transport operator who runs open access services on their behalf.

Considering first are now a contractor for Flixbus it's possible flixtrain tickets they.could accept on their LUMO open access operators kinda like SWT did with megatrain or .megabus+

 

[Haywain]

Considering first are now a contractor for Flixbus it's possible flixtrain tickets they.could accept on their LUMO open access operators kinda like SWT did with megatrain or .megabus+

SWT (and EMT) accepted Megabus/train because all were owned by Stagecoach group, and it filled seats on scheduled services. That’s quite different to the situation with First and Flix. And I don’t think there’s any suggestion that Lumo has a significant problem in filling their trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, what I could see happening is that Flixbus provides their Flixtrain branding/ commercial system and has an existing transport operator who runs open access services on their behalf.

That's how Flix works generally - it's effectively a partnership (including revenue risk) between them and the operator. That's how they could expand so quickly. So if they came to the UK it'd likely be a partnership with an operator. West Coast Railways, anyone? Would seem to fit their "old junk run infrequently and slowly" model in Germany.

 

[styles]

SWT (and EMT) accepted Megabus/train because all were owned by Stagecoach group, and it filled seats on scheduled services. That’s quite different to the situation with First and Flix. And I don’t think there’s any suggestion that Lumo has a significant problem in filling their trains.

Indeed, Lumo were up to 75% seat utilisation to FY end June last year, up from 71% the year before. Every one I've been on has been packed, and they've had so much demand they've had to re-design their luggage logistics a few times. If anything, I reckon they were too conservative in their set lengths, though clearly it was a big undertaking as a brand new operator on an already busy route.

That's quite different to the slow EMT services Stagecoach used to flog off on Megatrain. I took those when I was a student and didn't have much money, but you did have to be willing to accept the ~30 minute wait at somewhere like Market Harborough/Wellingborough (I forget which).

 

[CdBrux]

Flixbus just doesn't have the experience needed to enter the rail market in the UK, with large barriers to overcome resources/ financial and at the moment, their brand moment is building but it isn't as strong as it is in Europe.

However, what I could see happening is that Flixbus provides their Flixtrain branding/ commercial system and has an existing transport operator who runs open access services on their behalf.

I don't know about Flixtrain, but my understanding for Flixbus is that it's 100% franchised. Flix just run the booking platform and do the branding. So yes, they would need a strong UK brand from the busses first

 

[YorkRailFan]

West Coast Railways, anyone?

Where would WCR want to serve and why would they want to get into more regularly scheduled services?

 

[BlueLeanie]

A lime green set of Mk2 aircons/mk3s (with door mods). Class 68 or 88 being used? What other stored stock is usable that could be scrubbed up and put into service?

I've used Flix coach Services in the UK and USA, the coaches have all been new or modern vehicles. I'm not sure if "scrubbed up" elderly stock aligns with their business model.

 

[Masbroughlad]

I've used Flix coach Services in the UK and USA, the coaches have all been new or modern vehicles. I'm not sure if "scrubbed up" elderly stock aligns with their business model.

I've never used Flixtrain in Europe, but I am pretty sure they use old rolling stock? They paint the outside, not sure about the interior. Anybody help with info on that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've never used Flixtrain in Europe, but I am pretty sure they use old rolling stock? They paint the outside, not sure about the interior. Anybody help with info on that?

They are ex DB InterRegio non aircon coaches. The interior is new but very basic. Think cheaply tarted up Mk3s for a comparison.

Where would WCR want to serve and why would they want to get into more regularly scheduled services?

It was just an example.

 

[43096]

That's how Flix works generally - it's effectively a partnership (including revenue risk) between them and the operator. That's how they could expand so quickly. So if they came to the UK it'd likely be a partnership with an operator. West Coast Railways, anyone? Would seem to fit their "old junk run infrequently and slowly" model in Germany.

The trains are a mix of old stock but always with 21st century locos, sometimes brand new Vectrons, ex-works from Siemens. So traction is not exactly "old junk"!

I don't know about Flixtrain, but my understanding for Flixbus is that it's 100% franchised. Flix just run the booking platform and do the branding. So yes, they would need a strong UK brand from the busses first

Train operation in Germany is contracted out, see below.

I've never used Flixtrain in Europe, but I am pretty sure they use old rolling stock? They paint the outside, not sure about the interior. Anybody help with info on that?

When they started service they used a motley collection of hired old stock. More recently they have used elderly but heavily refurbished stock, the overhaul and refurbishment of which was financed by leasing company Railpool. However, because they run on the high speed lines in Germany they need 200km/h locos with LZB and/or ETCS, which limits them to mid-life ES64U2 locos or state-of-the-art Vectrons. Train operation is entirely contracted out, so as operator contracts change there is a churn of locos used - they have used various Hector Rail, ELL, MRCE/Beacon and Railpool locos at different times.

One of the big differences from Germany and something probably stopping a Flixtrain operation in the UK is the high barrier to entry in terms of the rigamarole of getting ORR permission, revenue tests and all the other jumping-through-hoops needed here. That would not be attractive to Flix wanting to setup quickly, test a market and then withdraw if it doesn't work. Don't forget that in Germany, DB Fernverkehr is effectively a giant open access operator.

 

[LLivery]

Get their hands on a few 373s and run a couple of very cheap London to Paris services per day? Run on the classic line in France to make it cheaper? Never happen, of course.

 

[Sorcerer]

Has anyone found use for the old Nova 3 stock yet? Cause if FlixTrain entered the UK market it'd not be too dissimilar to their loco-hauled European stock. Just replace the 68 with an 88 or other electric loco and paint it in green and you might just have your speculative operator.

 

[Nottingham59]

Flixbus is in the UK. Could we ever see Flixtrain like in Germany?

An OA operator? Could use old, basic refurbished stock or be like a Lumo type operation?

Where could they operate?

How about Curzon St to Old Oak Common? There would be plenty of capacity in the years between opening Curzon St and finishing the link to Handsacre. Would that be allowed by ORR?

They could borrow sub-lease a handful of 400m duplex sets from a partner like DB or SNCF, and run 1tph at a price that massively undercut the proposed state operator. And it wouldn't even be "primarily extractive" since there are no flows on that route today.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Has anyone found use for the old Nova 3 stock yet?

Isn't there some speculation that they're on the move to Chiltern potentially?

 

[The Planner]

How about Curzon St to Old Oak Common? There would be plenty of capacity in the years between opening Curzon St and finishing the link to Handsacre. Would that be allowed by ORR?

They could borrow sub-lease a handful of 400m duplex sets from a partner like DB or SNCF, and run 1tph at a price that massively undercut the proposed state operator. And it wouldn't even be "primarily extractive" since there are no flows on that route today.

I wouldn't expect such a substantial gap between Curzon St and Handsacre.

 

[Nottingham59]

I wouldn't expect such a substantial gap between Curzon St and Handsacre.

I'm just going on the observation that all work on Handsacre appears to have come to a halt while they concentrate on building the main line to Curzon St.

Once Handsacre opens, it all depends on how ORR allocates paths and capacity at Old Oak Common, between the state operator and a now established open access operator.

 

[Sorcerer]

Isn't there some speculation that they're on the move to Chiltern potentially?

Probably a better suited place for them all things considered, but I do still think they'd be quite the lookers in FlixTrain green.