Flooding at Farringdon

[Bald Rick]

Methinks if Thames Water don't cough it could get very messy as the sum involved will be so high that no private company would unless advised by their lawyers that they have no chance of defending the case.

It won't be that much.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Presumably then that applies to anyone (and applied to lorry drivers insurers in that precedent)

This would presumably also mean that NR would have do demonstrate negligence by Thames Water which might not be that easy.

Water utilities operate under different legislation, and IIRC have a higher burden of responsibility placed on them than householders.

The lorry cases are slam-dunk negligence issues. A HGV driver who strikes a bridge has been negligent, and his employer (and therefore their insurers) are vicariously liable for their negligence.

 

[rdwarr]

Thames Water now blaming Network Rail:

http://www.thameswater.co.uk/media/press-releases/18458.htm

 

[jon0844]

I can definitely see this going to court. A few lawyers must be getting really excited right now!

 

[ItchyRsole]

Ouch!

Network Rail negligence in not clearing their drains is the line.

This will get messy. Gotta be in excess of £10m compensation due to someone.

 

[infobleep]

I have been impressed with Thameslink staff - they've really upped their game since the disruption before Christmas. Like many people I've been delayed every night this week, and had to stand on overcrowded, slow trains. But the staff along the way have been nothing but helpful and positive. At St Albans tonight the RPIs were handing out Delay Repay forms at the barrier - not something I've seen before.

I was a bit surprised at the tone of the joint Network Rail/Thameslink press release. It is clear that Thameslink are very, very frustrated with the situation.

I wonder if Thameslink are frustrated by the blank pages and lack of timetables for the Sevenoaks route.

 

[fusionblue]

I wonder if Thameslink are frustrated by the blank pages and lack of timetables for the Sevenoaks route.

The timetable being used for Sevenoaks is the same saturday timetable that's been in place for a while. So how SET/TL say "it's not available yet" is bizarre to say the least.

 

[Class377]

The timetable being used for Sevenoaks is the same saturday timetable that's been in place for a while. So how SET/TL say "it's not available yet" is bizarre to say the least.

It's not really bizarre to see Thameslink waiting until the last possible minute to give out the information!

 

[swt_passenger]

Thames Water now blaming Network Rail:

http://www.thameswater.co.uk/media/press-releases/18458.htm

This is what happens when you air your disputes via the media. Criticising each other via press releases is probably not really the best way to do this.

How often have we heard about issues with poorly maintained land drainage on or off NR land being at the root cause of eventual problems such as flooding or landslips. That photo of the blocked grille linked above seems to show the sort of colourful rubbish people throw onto the tracks in station platforms - the stuff that seems to be too much trouble for anyone to deal with because of 'health and safety'. Presumably at Farringdon the wind and rain washes all the rubbish down to the lowest point below the grid iron somewhere...

A stich in time...

 

[DelayRepay]

For what it's worth in my opinion: Regardless of the blocked drain, the flooding was caused by a burst water main. If the blocked drain was the reason the water did not drain away, why did more water appear when Network Rail pumped the first lot out?

If the water main hadn't burst, none of this would have happened. And we were told yesterday that there were five leaks which had to be repaired. None of this was caused by a blocked drain!

 

[LBSCR Times]

It's not really bizarre to see Thameslink waiting until the last possible minute to give out the information!

Waiting for the night turn Control staff to work out what was required / available. SET are contracted to do this at the moment, so whilst the plan can be similar to previous editions, it's robustness will depend on what resources there are available on the day.

 

[infobleep]

Waiting for the night turn Control staff to work out what was required / available. SET are contracted to do this at the moment, so whilst the plan can be similar to previous editions, it's robustness will depend on what resources there are available on the day.

I can understand that but if the information is not available at the same time, that should be communicated out to people. It shouldn't be a case of SET saying Thameslink deal with it and Thameslink saying SET deal with it.

Perhaps both companies are frustrated at the other at each other for the other not dealing with it. I. E. Thameslink want SET to deal with it and SET want Thameslink to deal with it.

 

[Taunton]

Perhaps both companies are frustrated at the other at each other for the other not dealing with it. I. E. Thameslink want SET to deal with it and SET want Thameslink to deal with it.

Are both "companies" not just branches of the same owner, Govia?

 

[21C101]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-31026906

Network Rail sends Thames Water 'multi-million pound bill'

Network Rail has issued Thames Water with a "multi-million pound bill" after leaks and a burst water main led to more than 1,000 trains being cancelled.

The St Pancras to Farringdon track was closed at 21:00 GMT on Wednesday with no trains "until at least the end of service" on Thursday.

Since cancellations started on Friday, services have been delayed by a total of 133 hours.

Thames Water said a lack of maintenance by Network Rail was behind the problem......

Tom Edwards, BBC London Transport Correspondent: This has now descended into tit-for-tat corporate wrangling over whose fault the disruption is and whose responsibility the flooded tunnel was. Network Rail's bullish approach on Wednesday - when they said they'd be presenting a million pound bill to Thames Water - has badly backfired.

It's horrendously embarrassing that the problem on Wednesday seems to be down to their own maintenance and, even worse, it was highlighted years ago.

 

[infobleep]

Are both "companies" not just branches of the same owner, Govia?

Yes they are but operationally they are not. So they could still each be frustrated. To be fair my tongue is firmly in my cheek. It just seems odd that each one wants people to ask the other. Wouldn't staff find being asked the same question frustrating when they feel the other should be giving out the information?

 

[user15681]

Normal service expected from tomorrow morning. As I mentioned yesterday, eight units needed checking over after Sunday morning's events. Five have been water damaged so a few services tomorrow will probably be short formed.

 

[Abpj17]

Surprised there aren't more updates from today.

Some horror stories about delays out there - my journey in wasn't too bad, but the queue to get into the underground was crazy. Going home, it was set to be awful. Given the snow, I suspected it would be bad so left v. early and got a train from St P at 4. Even then passengers weren't allowed down to platforms until train had arrived, and the train I was on changed from all stations to fast and back to all stations before it left 10 mins late (and without the all stations passengers because they had already got off....

 

[Busaholic]

No; the water main carries clean water to businesses and homes. The rivers are routed through the waste pipes/sewers.

But, the Thameslink line pretty much follows the Fleet.

http://cdn.londonist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Fleetrivermap.jpg is the best map I could find.

Stop me when you recognise the names - one of the sources is in Hampsted, then it runs through Kentish Town, St Pancras, Kings Cross, Farringdon, and flows into the Thames at Blackfriars...

If you're familiar with that area, Farringdon Road is essentially the valley the Fleet ran through - which is why you get such a height difference to have the Holborn Viaduct (not far from the north exit of City Thameslink) going over Farringdon Road.

http://www.londonslostrivers.com/river-fleet.html has a good amount of detail including...

and http://www.londoncanals.uk/rivers/flt02.html kinda contradicts that - but some interesting stuff for railways enthusiasts...

http://www.londoncanals.uk/rivers/flt01.html also contains some good pictures. The description mentions it veers east at cowcross and farringdon road (so basically, it used to flow through where the station is now...)

Thank you very much for such comprehensive information, which I am sure will be of much interest to quite a few on here as well as myself. Those of us with an interest in the London Underground are often interested in other underground activities.

 

[ItchyRsole]

Surprised there aren't more updates from today.

Some horror stories about delays out there - my journey in wasn't too bad, but the queue to get into the underground was crazy. Going home, it was set to be awful. Given the snow, I suspected it would be bad so left v. early and got a train from St P at 4. Even then passengers weren't allowed down to platforms until train had arrived, and the train I was on changed from all stations to fast and back to all stations before it left 10 mins late (and without the all stations passengers because they had already got off....

Was on the same train. Poor driver must of been getting all kinds of conflicting info.

 

[Abpj17]

Was on the same train. Poor driver must of been getting all kinds of conflicting info.

Yeah; it's at the point of just feeling sorry for them now. The lady driving my train this morning was effusively apologetic (especially as there was zero chance of elstree and radlett passengers boarding).

You weren't the guy taking a bike down the escalators?

 

[21C101]

This morning was ok although full before st Albans. Underground ok but I was at st p well bfore 8am.

Tonight didnt even try low level. Got 4.29 to luton and changed. Wasnt as busy as i expected.

Emt services seemd to be making normal stops with no extra luton and bedford calls.

Heavy snow here in Beds as I write.

 

[DelayRepay]

This morning I got to St Albans and there was a train in Platform 1 which was rammed full to the rafters. The platform was also full. The staff said the train in the platform had started there but the next couple were coming from Bedford/Luton and were expected to be full on arrival - so I decided to use the coach to WGC - this worked out OK as I needed to be near Moorgate this morning anyway.

At home time, at about 6 I went to St Pancras and it was chaos - there must have been at least 1,000 people waiting to get through the barriers. I decided to use the GN route and coach again rather than wait. At WGC there was only one other passenger with me on the coach.

On Twitter, there are quite a few angry people who got off at Hatfield expecting the coaches to run from there as is normal. The change to WGC wasn't well communicated and the fact that the GN trains have an automated announcement at Hatfield saying "change here for a bus link to St Albans" probably doesn't help.

I now understand why a Thameslink Delay Repay form has space for five journeys! I went into the station to collect another form when I got back to St Albans, but they appear to have run out...

I feel physically exhausted after this week so I really hope things are back to normal in the morning. Although even a "normal service" isn't fantastic on this route. If we weren't in the middle of our own crisis at work, I would have taken tomorrow as annual leave.

 

[ItchyRsole]

Agree with above. This weeks really taken it out of me. I've had to go to so many different places & be there at specific times it's been a nightmare. Even my sleep is affected as I'm waking up wondering if things are ok, checking online, thinking of alternative routes which I really could do without. It's a complete pain in the nuts.

Got an even busier week from Monday. I'm praying this crap is resolved by then.

 

[W230]

So we've been given an update on what happened. I didn't try relaying it all to the passengers but sure it will all be out in due course in the official manner. But to summarise:

1) a water main burst (Thames Water fault?)
2) the drainage for the tunnel was blocked (Network Rail fault?)
3) the valve which allows the water to drain from its collection drain (the one in the photo with the debris in it) through to the pumping station had been closed by LUL, I'm not sure when (LUL fault?)

Anyway, it sounds like were running a full service tomorrow - subject to the snow causing issues..:

 

[cjmillsnun]

Agree with above. This weeks really taken it out of me. I've had to go to so many different places & be there at specific times it's been a nightmare. Even my sleep is affected as I'm waking up wondering if things are ok, checking online, thinking of alternative routes which I really could do without. It's a complete pain in the nuts.

Got an even busier week from Monday. I'm praying this crap is resolved by then.

I suspect it has taken it out on everyone. Railwaymen/women and passengers alike.

 

[Bald Rick]

Left home normal time. Drove to Hatfield instead of walk to St Albans. Had a practically whole car park to choose a space. Got train. Got seat. Train on time at KX #boringlyreliable.

Tube from KX. Got to work 20 mins early.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So we've been given an update on what happened. I didn't try relaying it all to the passengers but sure it will all be out in due course in the official manner. But to summarise:

1) a water main burst (Thames Water fault?)
2) the drainage for the tunnel was blocked (Network Rail fault?)
3) the valve which allows the water to drain from its collection drain (the one in the photo with the debris in it) through to the pumping station had been closed by LUL, I'm not sure when (LUL fault?)

Anyway, it sounds like were running a full service tomorrow - subject to the snow causing issues..:

Question worth asking is, what blocked the drain, and how did it happen? Was it perchance blocked by lots of debris which was washed down by the torrent from the water main? Or not?

 

[LBSCR Times]

Question worth asking is, what blocked the drain, and how did it happen? Was it perchance blocked by lots of debris which was washed down by the torrent from the water main? Or not?

No doubt staff from NR, Thames Water and LUL are sifting through the debris to try and find something with a 'use by / sell by' date on it, to get an idea how long it has been down there for!

 

[Nym]

Given that the LU station is still open and is an active intervention point, just a disused part of the station, I would expect access to it to be exceedingly easy should a good reason for access (and the appropriate authority) be made available...

 

[user15681]

2W79 Bedford to Three Bridges has just passed through Clerkenwell Tunnel no.1 southbound at 23:58. Core now reopened.

 

[Abpj17]

2W79 Bedford to Three Bridges has just passed through Clerkenwell Tunnel no.1 southbound at 23:58. Core now reopened.

Super - lets see what the snow brings!

I think the regular commuters are really just in exhausted mode along with the staff. Elstree/Radlett I imagine are much stroppier, St A and above people are actually mostly managing to get a train in. There are some usual very vocal critics (see twitter) and a whole load of tourists/occassional travellers who are just confused or cross.