Folkestone - Greenhithe (for Bluewater)

[Southern]

Hi all!

Need to be at Bluewater for around 9.30am on Monday 5th September, hoping someone can find anything cheaper than this:

Anytime Day Return valid: Valid via Not London £44.40

Only permitted route the Southeastern Journey Planner is giving me is the "round the houses" drag via Canterbury, Faversham and Gillingham. If anyone knows any other routes that are permitted with this ticket or can find a cheaper alternative, it would be much appreciated.

Regards
Southern

 

[button_boxer]

Would it be any easier to get an HS1 service to Ebbsfleet and get the bus from there to Bluewater?

 

[MikeWh]

Would it be any easier to get an HS1 service to Ebbsfleet and get the bus from there to Bluewater?

I'd say yes. Anytime day return from Folkestone Central to Ebbsfleet International is £38.40 then you've a choice of ordinary bus 499 or Fastrack B. The Fastrack return is £3.70 while the 499 is likely to be slightly cheaper.

 

[Southern]

I'm a little wary of trying that as last time I was told my Bluewater Plusbus ticket wasn't valid from Ebbsfleet by a number of Fastrack bus drivers. Southeastern staff at Ebbsfleet then told me it was valid. To add to my confusion, my ticket was then deemed invalid by a HS1 inspector on my way home.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm a little wary of trying that as last time I was told my Bluewater Plusbus ticket wasn't valid from Ebbsfleet by a number of Fastrack bus drivers. Southeastern staff at Ebbsfleet then told me it was valid. To add to my confusion, my ticket was then deemed invalid by a HS1 inspector on my way home.

The Plus Bus tickets either cover Dartford and Bluewater OR Gravesend and Ebbsfleet, so you'll have to get the actual bus return. As to the other problem, I wonder whether you had a ticket marked NOT VALID on HS1. Bizzarely they do exist, even though you can't get to Ebbsfleet without going on HS1. The Anytime fare is actually the same, but the off-peak one isn't. Just make sure when the ticket is issued that it says Any Permitted or Plus High Speed.

 

[Southern]

The Plus Bus tickets either cover Dartford and Bluewater OR Gravesend and Ebbsfleet, so you'll have to get the actual bus return. As to the other problem, I wonder whether you had a ticket marked NOT VALID on HS1. Bizzarely they do exist, even though you can't get to Ebbsfleet without going on HS1. The Anytime fare is actually the same, but the off-peak one isn't. Just make sure when the ticket is issued that it says Any Permitted or Plus High Speed.

Think it just said "not valid via London."

 

[OwlMan]

What time are you coming back.

There is a National Express coach from Dover at 0725 (fare currently £8-50)
Returns at 1330, 1545, 1715, 1800, 2030 (all £8-50 except 1715 - £7-90)

SDR Folkestone - Dover £4-60.

Peter

Alternatively the coach stops in Canterbury so you could go there instead.

 

[yorkie]

To add to my confusion, my ticket was then deemed invalid by a HS1 inspector on my way home.

Did you get the name of the inspector? It's well worth sending an email to SET asking them to give the inspector some training, so that they don't make the same mistake with anyone else.

Were you "let off"? If so, that's usually a sign that they're wrong!

The shortest route is always valid.

The shortest route should be 53.25 miles via Ashford Intl, Ebbsfleet and Gravesend. (Not much further than the 'crow flies' distance of 46.15 miles).

If an knowledgeable inspector makes this claim, I'd say: "Can you confirm that the National Rail Conditions of Carriage state that the shortest route is valid, and can you let me know, if this is not the shortest route, what route is shorter?" and I certainly wouldn't be parting with any money.

 

[OwlMan]

Did you get the name of the inspector? It's well worth sending an email to SET asking them to give the inspector some training, so that they don't make the same mistake with anyone else.

Were you "let off"? If so, that's usually a sign that they're wrong!

The shortest route is always valid.

The shortest route should be 53.25 miles via Ashford Intl, Ebbsfleet and Gravesend. (Not much further than the 'crow flies' distance of 46.15 miles).

If an knowledgeable inspector makes this claim, I'd say: "Can you confirm that the National Rail Conditions of Carriage state that the shortest route is valid, and can you let me know, if this is not the shortest route, what route is shorter?" and I certainly wouldn't be parting with any money.

The shortest route is not always valid.

Nrcoc
13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).
(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within
the zone or zones shown on the ticket.
(c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the
“permitted routes”.
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.
(e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b)
above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the
difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the
lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you
to travel by that route.
(f) For the purposes of this Condition, a “through train” is one which may be
used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains.

13(a) is qualified by 13(d) so that if the ticket is routed "Not HS1" it is not valid on the shortest route if vthat uses HS1.

Peter

 

[yorkie]

OK then, the shortest route is always valid unless it is explicitly "shown on the ticket". As the ticket is routed "Not London", the shortest route is always valid unless the shortest route happens to be London (unless the fare via London was cheaper!), but as the shortest route is clearly avoiding London, the shortest route has got to be valid. A complaint should be made to SET, in my opinion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A better way of wording it may be "the shortest route not via London is always valid" in this case, or if the ticket was routed "Not HS1" (which it isn't, but for completeness) then you could say "the shortest route not via HS1 is always valid". Anyway it clearly was valid!

 

[robbob700]

Southeastern don't seem to think that "NOT LONDON" fares are valid on HS1. For example the shortest route between Sidcup and Ashford International is via HS1, but all the booking engines force you to buy a ANY PERMITTED ticket for this route. The NOT LONDON ticket is only shown as valid via Strood and Maidstone.

However I don't know whether the staff on HS1 would accept the NOT LONDON tickets. I have used a Sidcup to Broadstairs ticket routed NOT LONDON on HS1 with no questioning. Although this is the fastest route and used to be offered by the booking engines, it is almost certainly not technically a valid route as it is much further by distance and not included in the routing guide. Unfortunately booking engines no longer offer a fare for this route.

 

[MikeWh]

For example the shortest route between Sidcup and Ashford International is via HS1

The cheapest way to pay for this journey is in two bits: Sidcup to Northfleet and Ebbsfleet to Ashford. You can walk between the two 'fleets faster than the trains take to go via Gravesend.

 

[robbob700]

Splitting at Northfleet/Ebbsfleet still works out more than the NOT LONDON fare which according to Yorkie should be valid on HS1 as this is the shortest route between the two stations.
I think the problem is that it that people are not expected to interchange between Northfleet and Ebbsfleet, or to effectively double-back via Gravesend. There were proposals to build a better interchange between Northfleet and Ebbsfleet back in 2009, but financial contraints have stopped this happening together with a perceived lack of demand.

 

[Southern]

Thanks for the help everyone, ended up going to Ebbsfleet and the using the Fastrack bus. Think I was only one of about three people who actually got off there, then on the way back the only one who got on. Given the frequency of the buses to Bluewater, you would think more people might use the station but maybe the fares are a bit of a deterent.

 

[Bungle73]

Frequent buses from Greenhithe, plus cheaper train fare because you avoid travelling on HS1.