Football ‘fans’ Trash Cardiff to London Train.

[Envoy]

I read that Millwall football fans behaved in an appalling way on a Cardiff to London train last Saturday. You would not be allowed onto a plane if you were drunk & disorderly so why are such people allowed onto trains? Why should ordinary passengers and staff have to put up with these yobs?

The woman claimed that while on the platform, one person shouted "show us your t*ts" at her and said that when she got on the train a member of staff came to warn her that there were a lot of football fans on board, and that there were police officers on the train already. "They were doing all this stuff in the carriage, shouting 'MILL' every time," she said. "Two of them came looking for the toilet but couldn’t find one so were knocking on the manager’s door shouting ‘what the f***’ and that sort of stuff."

Woman left 'scared' by football fans shouting abuse and 'trashing' Cardiff train

The incident is being investigated by British Transport Police

www.walesonline.co.uk

 

[AlterEgo]

It isn’t the drink that’s the problem with a lot of fans now, there’s a lot of harder stuff going about as well.

 

[zwk500]

I read that Millwall football fans behaved in an appalling way on a Cardiff to London train last Saturday. You would not be allowed onto a plane if you were drunk & disorderly so why are such people allowed onto trains? Why should ordinary passengers and staff have to put up with these yobs?

Legally, you are not. However in an airport there are far more resources to remove people or prevent them boarding in the first place, whereas on the train the police can be heavily outnumbered.

 

[Envoy]

Legally, you are not. However in an airport there are far more resources to remove people or prevent them boarding in the first place, whereas on the train the police can be heavily outnumbered.

I see that you are in the Netherlands. Do you have the same problem?

 

[zwk500]

I see that you are in the Netherlands. Do you have the same problem?

I don't really know. I'm not particularly into football, don't generally travel around the country too much and have only lived here for 6 months or so, having lived in England for 27 years before last summer.

 

[baz962]

I once had a tour of Ajax. They have a giant tube/walkway linking the train station to the away end to separate the fans.

 

[popeter45]

I see that you are in the Netherlands. Do you have the same problem?

dutch friend was on a train last week with a load of football fans traveling north from rotterdam, she say she counted at least 5 antisemitic chants during that trip withing 3 minutes

 

[duncanp]

I once had a tour of Ajax. They have a giant tube/walkway linking the train station to the away end to separate the fans.

When Spurs are playing at home, away fans are sometimes directed to go to Tottenham Hale station rather than Seven Sisters station, which is used by home fans.

It has been known for trains on the Victoria Line stopping at Tottenham Hale to run through Seven Sisters without stopping in order to separate opposing groups of fans.

With regard to the train from Cardiff to London, I suspect the Welsh Police just wanted the Millwall fans off their patch, and were glad to get them on to the train, where they become someone else's problem. (ie. the BTP) If you stop them from boarding the train in Cardiff, then you have the problem of what to do with them.

I know that the majority of football fans are well behaved, but that is of little comfort if you are on the receiving end of this type of behaviour.

 

[EZJ]

In my 20 plus years on the railway I have to say these "fans" are some of the most unpleasant people you have to deal with, I drive across the North and take in most of the major cities and any time there is a game on you get the same knuckle dragging morons with cases of Fosters tucked under their arms, always smoke and consume various other substances on the train, always chanting vile songs that their simplistic brain seem to think is humorous. If it was up to me the lot of them would be banned, other well behaved passengers and staff shouldn't have to put up with it. Sadly nothing has changed in my 20 years and I doubt it will in the next 20.

 

[Krokodil]

I see that Millwall fans are keen to keep up their old reputation.

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks everyone for adding further comments to this thread. If the Cardiff police just wanted them on the train so that they would be shot of these morons, then that is surely not the way to deal with the situation? EZJ above mentions that nothing has changed in the 20 years that he has been on the railway and doubts anything will change in the next 20. Anyone got any ideas about how to deal with the situation?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Just for the record rugby fans can be as bad. Not so much drugs but alcohol Beer = stupidity and they are arrogant with it.

 

[Iskra]

Why didn’t she contact the police at the time? Instead, she’s gone to the local newspaper?

Perhaps, rather than the usual tarring of football fans with the same brush on here and in the media, perhaps we could just hold the individuals responsible accountable and have some meaningful sentencing for a change which would actually deter such behaviour. BTP seem utterly invisible and toothless in these situations.

 

[D6130]

This sort of behaviour amongst a bone-headed minority of football fans has been going on for decades. I can remember it being reported on the television news in the late 'sixties and when I joined the railway in 1975 it was already a major problem. Of course in those days BR had thousands of locos and many rakes of elderly mark 1 stock lying around in sidings for use on Advertised Excursions, Mystery Excursions, Holiday Previews, etc. in the Summer months and FOOTEXs (Football specials) in the winter. When I worked in the Special Traffic Section at the South Western Divisional Manager's office in Wimbledon in the late 'seventies, one of my responsibilities was to keep track of the away fixtures of the Football League teams on my patch and arrange appropriate FOOTEXs in order to keep the 'fans' away from service trains as much as possible. These trains were, of course, arranged in conjunction with the locomotive, coaching stock and diagramming sections at Wimbledon - and their equivalents on other regions/divisions. The two main teams involved were Portsmouth and Southampton....and to a lesser extent Bournemouth and Wimbledon (now MK Dons). These trains - like other excursions - had very cheap fares, as a further incentive to avoid normal service trains.

Nowadays, unfortunately, the slimmed-down privatised railway doesn't have enough rolling stock to cover its scheduled services - let alone special trains - so the poor innocent travelling public have to put up with this sort of disgraceful behaviour on a regular basis.

For the record, it happens in Italy too....especially amongst supporters of the big rival teams (Roma & Lazio, AC Milan & Inter, Juventus & Torino plus Napoli and just about any other team!).

 

[zwk500]

Why didn’t she contact the police at the time? Instead, she’s gone to the local newspaper?

The article states police were on the train.

Perhaps, rather than the usual tarring of football fans with the same brush on here and in the media, perhaps we could just hold the individuals responsible accountable and have some meaningful sentencing for a change which would actually deter such behaviour. BTP seem utterly invisible and toothless in these situations.

Particularly on here, it has been noted that the majority of football fans are absolutely fine.

 

[plymothian]

Many thanks everyone for adding further comments to this thread. If the Cardiff police just wanted them on the train so that they would be shot of these morons, then that is surely not the way to deal with the situation? EZJ above mentions that nothing has changed in the 20 years that he has been on the railway and doubts anything will change in the next 20. Anyone got any ideas about how to deal with the situation?

It's systemic, not just to such a situation. Any police force will send someone they don't want on a train to get them off their patch as they don't want to deal with them any longer. It then puts train staff in a bad situation, who have no means of controlling such a situation except refusing carriage - which then can get them in trouble with their empoyers for causing delay etc or just a massive argument with the police officers. And then BTP are not available for back up if anything happens
Having staff on train is all very well (you can see comments on the article that the staff hid etc), but those members of staff are no different to travelling public in the powers they have or willingness to get involved in potentially volitile situations.

 

[Iskra]

The article states police were on the train.

Particularly on here, it has been noted that the majority of football fans are absolutely fine.

And they just stood by and watched? Sounds like the policing itself needs investigating too.

 

[dk1]

Always been the same with Millwall. At least one trashed carriage in every train to be expected for the last 30 years or so.

 

[uglymonkey]

Too outnumbered to do anything else I suspect.

 

[Iskra]

Too outnumbered to do anything else I suspect.

Why though? It's Cardiff v Millwall, two fanbases that have had plenty of issues historically, it seems like the threat assessment was all wrong and an inadequate number of officers deployed.

 

[DarloRich]

my views on this kind of subject aren't wanted but I would advise reading the linked article with a sensationalism filter applied. The entire report is vastly overblown, sensationalist and quite pearl clutching.

 

[Russel]

Ah, the football hooligans strike again.

I was on an XC service that filled with football fans in October, after they finished fighting, they proceeded to force entry into the galley and distribute the alcohol from the trolley.

I really felt bad for the couple opposite us and their young child, I'm glad I didn't have mine with me.

 

[43066]

I read that Millwall football fans behaved in an appalling way on a Cardiff to London train last Saturday. You would not be allowed onto a plane if you were drunk & disorderly so why are such people allowed onto trains? Why should ordinary passengers and staff have to put up with these yobs?

Woman left 'scared' by football fans shouting abuse and 'trashing' Cardiff train

The incident is being investigated by British Transport Police

www.walesonline.co.uk

Sadly I’m not remotely surprised to read this given my own TOC’s experience with Millwall fans.

Particularly on here, it has been noted that the majority of football fans are absolutely fine.

That may be so but it doesn’t alter the fact that a significant minority behave absolutely appallingly. There is definitely a wider cultural problem here.

 

[physics34]

Ive been an away fan and i remember a few years ago travelling to Burnley on a 150 i think. There were a bunch of us standing up and singing... no aggressive or insulting songs just youre average songs. I noticed how frightenened a few little old ladies were who were also on the train, and i can understand that. One brave soul told us all to shut up lol

 

[sheff1]

Anyone got any ideas about how to deal with the situation?

The police could, heaven forbid, enforce the law ..... but, as stated earlier, the local forces much prefer to get everyone on the trains* to 'get rid of them' and the police travelling on the train generally turn a blind eye to law breaking. The situation has been much the same thoughout the 50+ years I have been travelling by train on match days so I doubt anything will change. Back when I used to travel every fortnight to away matches you knew who the key troublemakers/ringleaders were and just avoided them both on the train (much easier on the proper length trains of yore, of course) and in the town/at the ground, yet strangely 'police football intelligence' seemed unable to identify and deal with them.

* Even in some cases, as previoulsy noted, trains not going to an innocent passenger's destination

 

[robbeech]

As I’ve said before, if we had to look at the football match, it’s fans and their activities as a risk assessment then they’d never be allowed to happen. It’s not about the percentage of fans that are going to cause trouble, we know very well that percentage is tiny, it’s about the likelihood that damage to property, and injury to people will occur. That likelihood in probability terms is 1. In a risk assessment the likelihood being so high would in itself prohibit the activity from being allowed to happen in many circumstances.

Working in live events you can often see a few people causing trouble, and in order for an event to go ahead you need to prove that you can prevent this AND that the likelihood of it happening isn’t too high.
Many a live event haven’t even moved from the planning stage because the risk of idiots in a large crowd is deemed too high yet with football, money seems to automatically discard this meaning the risks are irrelevant.

 

[Iskra]

As I’ve said before, if we had to look at the football match, it’s fans and their activities as a risk assessment then they’d never be allowed to happen. It’s not about the percentage of fans that are going to cause trouble, we know very well that percentage is tiny, it’s about the likelihood that damage to property, and injury to people will occur. That likelihood in probability terms is 1. In a risk assessment the likelihood being so high would in itself prohibit the activity from being allowed to happen in many circumstances.

Working in live events you can often see a few people causing trouble, and in order for an event to go ahead you need to prove that you can prevent this AND that the likelihood of it happening isn’t too high.
Many a live event haven’t even moved from the planning stage because the risk of idiots in a large crowd is deemed too high yet with football, money seems to automatically discard this meaning the risks are irrelevant.

The vast majority of football games go ahead with no incidents. We've even had policeless games at Elland Road in previous seasons (low risk ones obviously), if there was guaranteed disorder that would never be allowed to have happened, so I totally disagree with your 'disorder inevitability' assessment.

 

[duncanp]

There were a bunch of us standing up and singing... no aggressive or insulting songs just youre average songs. I noticed how frightenened a few little old ladies were who were also on the train, and i can understand that.

This is one of the issues though.

What some people consider as "banter" or "boisterousness" can be intimidating or threatening to others.

You can make trains "dry" (ie. no consumption of alcohol allowed) but that doesn't stop people from drinking in the pub before they get on the train.

One solution might be to close pubs in the immediate vicinity of the ground and/or the railway station, but how do you define "immediate vicinity", and it would be unfair on businesses affected.

As noted, this is a problem abroad.

In France, the Paris St Germain vs Olympique Marseille match is notorious for trouble, as are local derbies such as Lens vs Lille.

 

[Snow1964]

The article states police were on the train.

Sounded like they needed a pallet load of handcuffs.

 

[43066]

We've even had policeless games at Elland Road in previous seasons (low risk ones obviously)

The fact that not needing police at a football match is seen as some kind of achievement speak volumes.